Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Job]

All wiki

In the 2014 European Parliament elections, UKIP received the greatest number of votes (27.5%) of any British party, producing 24 MEPs.

The pressure UKIP exerted on the government is widely regarded as the main reason for the 2016 referendum which led to the decision for the United Kingdom to withdraw from the European Union.

This bit amused me.
Having an ideological heritage stemming from the right-wing of the Conservative Party, it distinguishes itself from the mainstream political establishment through heavy use of populist rhetoric, including describing its supporters as the "People's Army".

Just like the Peoples vote eh.

 

[Job]

It is getting seriously painful now.

From the croak speech, falling letters,
EU not giving her respect and now telling us shes actually a really difficult woman.

Cringe factor 11.

 

[Scouse]

Idiot can't follow argument because idiot:

In the 2014 European Parliament elections, UKIP received the greatest number of votes (27.5%) of any British party, producing 24 MEPs.

UKIP got 12% of the vote in the UK general election. Not 30.

They had a good showing in the european parliament, but that's no threat to the tories

Also, as usual - Wiki doesn't tell the whole story (but I did):

The pressure UKIP exerted on the government is widely regarded as the main reason for the 2016 referendum

Because that 20% tory rabble which never shuts up started identifying somewhat with UKIP - including defections between the two (because, effectively, UKIP is just a bit more right than the average Tory cunt). Without that annoying idiot bit of the Tory party UKIP would just have been another minority party - representing just 12% of the UK vote - and therefore utterly ignorable.

But not for the Tories, because of their idiot-disease. Cameron called the referendum to shut his rebels down once and for all (and thereby neutering UKIP completely) - and failed.

To the detriment of not just the UK, but all of Europe, and therefore the wider world.

I say the wider world, because if one thing is clear - the stabilisation mechanism which has kept peace in the most war-torn area the planet has ever seen is now weaker due to wankers (Cameron) pandering to a tiny proportion of idiot racists who will never die out (the ultra right wing). This has knock-on effects.

History has shown how to deal with the right - ignore them, whilst providing a reasonable living standard and economic hope to the masses. When the rich decided to horde all the cash, and to take all the benefits from increased productivity since the 50's onwards - rather than sharing the benefits of our labour - then inequality soared.

You can't ignore the racist right when the masses have a declining living standard and rapidly shrinking economic hope. History has shown this. Cameron is one of a long line of idiot UK politicians (especially since Thatcher) who failed to grasp this (because he comes from privilege, so how is he supposed to understand?) and rather than squeeze those who can most afford it (the multi-millionaires and billionaires who's wealth has literally rocketted since the financial crash) our politicians have squeezed the working class, who were only scraping by anyway.

This is a model that's been repeated across Europe and the US. It explains Trump and the rise of the right.

The social contract is broken, that's why the right gets listened to nowadays.

But UKIP weren't to blame. They're a symptom of a wider problem. If that problem had been looked after then UKIP would never have gotten a look in in the first place.

 

[Bodhi]

It's actually both parties' fault. Major's Conservative Government should have given us a referendum on Maastricht in 1992, and Gordon Brown should have given us a referendum on Lisbon. Maybe then either a) we wouldn't have joined in the first place and would be in a situation like Switzerland at the moment, or we would have joined and Euroscepticism wouldn't have been allowed to fester for 40 years.

Only think Cameron did wrong was not plan for a Leave vote, then fuck off into the sunset when he didn't get his way.

At least he only fucked a pig, May has fucked 52% of the country.

 

[BloodOmen]

Gove decided not to quit, what a spineless cunt that man is, he's stood up for nothing despite all his claims of standing up to May over the months.

 

[Scouse]

It's actually both parties' fault.

I agree with this bit of your post. But only to how it applies to the social contract being broken. Both Labour (especially under Blair and Brown) and the Tories have presided over a strategy that sees rich people get richer and poor people get poorer.

When the inevitable crash happened the disparity between the haves and the have-nots was therefore so wide that there wasn't enough buffer to absorb it socially.

Nobody would be giving a shit about the EU at all, happily stay in it, out of it, whatever - just not change it - if our governments were delivering social fairness and less inequality.

But they're not. So UKIP and rebel tories pointed at the EU. Like it's Europe's fault, rather than our own.

Which it is. Our own, that is.


Edit: The funny thing is this: Brexit will deliver an increasingly rapid pace of the widening of inequality, rather than delivering what the idiot masses thought they were voting for: i.e. a better life.

It's going to be used, eventually, to trash working conditions, wages and drive up the wealth of the already rich.

 

[Gwadien]

Euro scepticism was pretty much non existent before UKIP, then they ramped it up through lies and deceit.

 

[Bodhi]

Euro scepticism was pretty much non existent before UKIP, then they ramped it up through lies and deceit.

Can't agree with that - it's been a factor as long as I've been half paying attention to politics - funnily enough since the early 90's with Maastricht and the ERM debacle.

 

[Scouse]

Can't agree with that - it's been a factor as long as I've been half paying attention to politics - funnily enough since the early 90's with Maastricht and the ERM debacle.

Yep. Absolutely agree with this.

But it was just the loony fringe and didn't need to be paid attention to. Mostly on the right of the Tory party. A thorn in Tory PM's side, maybe, but not a real problem.

It wasn't until the financial crash that the utterly predictable happened - and predominantly the poor and dumb (don't get butthurt - that's exactly what the demographics show) started to vote for loony-UKIP party. And suddenly the loony fringe had much more control of the political narrative.

 

[Gwadien]

OK, bad use of words.

I mean this.

But it was just the loony fringe and didn't need to be paid attention to. Mostly on the right of the Tory party. A thorn in Tory PM's side, maybe, but not a real problem.

It wasn't until the financial crash that the utterly predictable happened - and predominantly the poor and dumb (don't get butthurt - that's exactly what the demographics show) started to vote for loony-UKIP party. And suddenly the loony fringe had much more control of the political narrative.

We needed a Leave PM, because all that's gonna happen as a result of this is Farage will make a come back saying that the Government's heart wasn't really in it because they were all Remain and then shit will hit the fan again whilst Farage sits on his millions of pounds.

 

[Deebs]

Having watched TM in the Commons yesterday, and all the people slating her, I have to admire her will as a strong woman, however, I feel slightly for her, she tried her hardest to achieve something but ultimately she was the wrong PM for the job, the moment Cameron fucked off a Brexit PM was needed to fulfil the will of the people.

I would happily support a 2nd referendum with the following options:

1. Accept the PM deal and leave the EU
2. Take a no deal and leave the EU

Anything else is not the will of the people, we are leaving the EU, that is what the ref of 2016 confirmed as the will of the people.

 

[Job]

They werent voting for a better economic life

The working classes gave never had it so good..they are swimmimg in house extensions; brand new cars; iphones , foreign holidays and 60 inch tvs.

They were voting for something far more important..the cultural stability of their country, a feeling of belonging, any town in this country can absorb immigrants, they become part of the community.
But when entire cities are taken over by ghettoised, racist and insular communites, then the shit hits the fan.
Remoaners always make it about the money...people who on the whole live in racially un diverse ghettos themselves.
Gated communities are the fastest rising housing developments in the UK.
They voted for a country with a continuing history and the progressive liberal prats attack them as thick northerners.
Its happening too fast and now we have brexit and a right wing Europe trying to pretend it isnt.

They voted for much higher ideals...a rejection ofcthe melting pot becausexit doesnt work as a social experiment in decades..it should take centuries.

 

[Job]

Euro scepticism was pretty much non existent before UKIP, then they ramped it up through lies and deceit.

It slowly ramped up in line with EU power grabs.
Everyone conveniently forgets that Farage was an MEP voted in by us in large numbers.
It was funny when he was giving the finger to the EU.
Where were the remoaners then?

 

[Scouse]

They werent voting for a better economic life

The working classes gave never had it so good..they are swimmimg in house extensions; brand new cars; iphones , foreign holidays and 60 inch tvs.

They were voting for something far more important..the cultural stability of their country, a feeling of belonging, any town in this country can absorb immigrants, they become part of the community.
But when entire cities are taken over by ghettoised, racist and insular communites, then the shit hits the fan.
Remoaners always make it about the money...people who on the whole live in racially un diverse ghettos themselves.
Gated communities are the fastest rising housing developments in the UK.
They voted for a country with a continuing history and the progressive liberal prats attack them as thick northerners.
Its happening too fast and now we have brexit and a right wing Europe trying to pretend it isnt.

They voted for much higher ideals...a rejection ofcthe melting pot becausexit doesnt work as a social experiment in decades..it should take centuries.

Absolutely not @Job. That's what you voted for. And the proportion of the number of people like you who voted with that as their primary thought.

Economics is absolutely at the root of this. All the evidence shows that. It also shows that when people are economically struggling then turning to the right wing, and against the "other" is what results.

History has proven this.
Current and historical data shows this.
Our current situation is EXACTLY this.

You can bleat on all you like about the shit you bleat on about - but we know the fix is greater economic equality between all people, regardless of race, religion, creed, whatever.

Once that's fixed, the loony right - i.e. YOU - cease to matter again.

I don't think we're going to fix it though. I think we're a dumb animal, and the rich wanna be rich. And as they hold all the money and the power, are those turkeys going to vote for christmas? I don't think so...

 

[Gwadien]

They werent voting for a better economic life

The working classes gave never had it so good..they are swimmimg in house extensions; brand new cars; iphones , foreign holidays and 60 inch tvs.

They were voting for something far more important..the cultural stability of their country, a feeling of belonging, any town in this country can absorb immigrants, they become part of the community.
But when entire cities are taken over by ghettoised, racist and insular communites, then the shit hits the fan.
Remoaners always make it about the money...people who on the whole live in racially un diverse ghettos themselves.
Gated communities are the fastest rising housing developments in the UK.
They voted for a country with a continuing history and the progressive liberal prats attack them as thick northerners.
Its happening too fast and now we have brexit and a right wing Europe trying to pretend it isnt.

They voted for much higher ideals...a rejection ofcthe melting pot becausexit doesnt work as a social experiment in decades..it should take centuries.

First of all - working classes never had it so good? Lol.

So again, you voted for Brexit purely on the basis of immigration - and we'll see lots more immigration post Brexit.

I also like it how you talk about we need to have the people have more of a say in politics, but when remainers who live in cities with huge minority populations say 'it's not bad actually, we quite like it' we should be forced to bow down to racists who have little air time with minorities telling us that it's bad? lol.

 

[Job]

What fucking world do you live in when you disagree the working classes have never had it so good?
Vast swathes of them earn more money than the middle classes.
A fucking binman is on 42K with overtime.
Middle and working class is now a culture not an income.
Shed loads of middle class kids are just living off bank of dad or earning 20K in some service industry.
There is barely any difference in the lifestyle of the rich kids in my middle class area and nearby working class estates.
They may get to borrow daddies range rover...
Inequality is the super rich vs the ludicrously poor immigrant.
The middle and working classes are overlapping each other financially and the only difference is inheritance.

 

[Gwadien]

What fucking world do you live in when you disagree the working classes have never had it so good?
Vast swathes of them earn more money than the middle classes.
A fucking binman is on 42K with overtime.
Middle and working class is now a culture not an income.
Shed loads of middle class kids are just living off bank of dad or earning 20K in some service industry.
There is barely any difference in the lifestyle of the rich kids in my middle class area and nearby working class estates.
They may get to borrow daddies range rover...
Inequality is the super rich vs the ludicrously poor immigrant.
The middle and working classes are overlapping each other financially and the only difference is inheritance.

I've never read something so wrong.

Sure there's loads of working class people that have a good trade behind them, but there's also millions who don't.

Imagine seeing atleast pfft... 20-25 kids a day wearing shoes/clothes with holes in and relying on the school for 2 meals a day (they all usually rush in for breakfast). It's sad and disheartening, the problem is (that @Scouse correctly pointed out) that they've been led to believe that once we leave the EU everything will be fine and dandy for them.

 

[Ctuchik]

Just like the Peoples vote eh.

"The people" evidently weren't aware of what exactly the consequences of a leave win were. Because the populist right wing never told them and ran smear campaigns on anyone that tried.

Have that same election again and i bet anything leave will lose, really really big. Now people know what happens.

 

[Gwadien]

"The people" evidently weren't aware of what exactly the consequences of a leave win were. Because the populist right wing never told them and ran smear campaigns on anyone that tried.

Have that same election again and i bet anything leave will lose, really really big. Now people know what happens.

I think Leave would have lost if they did another referendum the day after, I'd imagine there was alot of people that were like 'shit, I should have voted.'

It's about motivating the masses to vote, and then vote for your cause.

 

[Wij]

I would happily support a 2nd referendum with the following options:

1. Accept the PM deal and leave the EU
2. Take a no deal and leave the EU

Anything else is not the will of the people, we are leaving the EU, that is what the ref of 2016 confirmed as the will of the people.

Nah, that's bollox. Why restrict the choices like that? Many people voted for a fantasy brexit that doesn't exist. How many leave voters actually thought they'd be getting either a shit deal with no actual end in sight or complete economic meltdown?

There's plenty of leave voters who now would take remain rather than those two options. They actually exist. People who thought they could have absolute sovereignty and make the country far richer at the same time. Many actively want to change their mind. You've got no right to take that option away from them. To use a shitty metaphor you might have agreed to buy a house but if the survey says it's collapsing you can change your mind. The referendum was sold on lies. This is the reality. The people deserve a say.

Both your options would be ruinous for the UK. An absolute shitshow. Why should we piss on our kids futures when we don't have to?

 

[Deebs]

Nah, that's bollox. Why restrict the choices like that? Many people voted for a fantasy brexit that doesn't exist. How many leave voters actually thought they'd be getting either a shit deal with no actual end in sight or complete economic meltdown?

There's plenty of leave voters who now would take remain rather than those two options. They actually exist. People who thought they could have absolute sovereignty and make the country far richer at the same time. Many actively want to change their mind. You've got no right to take that option away from them. To use a shitty metaphor you might have agreed to buy a house but if the survey says it's collapsing you can change your mind. The referendum was sold on lies. This is the reality. The people deserve a say.

Both your options would be ruinous for the UK. An absolute shitshow. Why should we piss on our kids futures when we don't have to?

Why is it bollox? The original ref was to LEAVE the EU, including the CU and SM and ending FOM. When I cast my vote I wanted to leave the EU completely, not fuck about trying to get a deal which would never benefit the UK.

You keep saying it was sold on lies, but, both sides lied, why is this never brought up? All the leave voters I know all have said they would vote the same, leave the EU with no deal which is what they voted for.

I never listened to either side when making my decision, and if offered to vote leave again today I would vote the exact same way.

 

[Wij]

When I cast my vote I wanted to leave the EU completely, not fuck about trying to get a deal which would never benefit the UK.

That's why YOU voted. You don't speak for all leave voters and neither do the people you've spoken to.

Secondly. You can't seriously want a no deal. Having no legal basis for any trade worldwide? The worst trade terms (even if we trade on legally shaky ground) of any country in the world? Becoming an economic pariah and the complete erasure of whatever international reputation the country had? It will make 2008 seem like a blip.

 

[Deebs]

That's why YOU voted. You don't speak for all leave voters and neither do the people you've spoken to.

Secondly. You can't seriously want a no deal. Having no legal basis for any trade worldwide? The worst trade terms (even if we trade on legally shaky ground) of any country in the world? Becoming an economic pariah and the complete erasure of whatever international reputation the country had? It will make 2008 seem like a blip.

Correct and you don't speak for anyone else as well. However, the leave voters I have spoken to HAVE said they wanted a no deal, just out of the EU. Period. Swings and roundabouts. The people spoke. Oh wait, let's keep having a referendum on leaving the EU until it swings to the Remain side. Listen, when voting has gone against me due to a majority I accepted it. That is democracy.

I knew the consequences when I cast my vote, it was a binary question and the Government dropped a flier into every house telling us exactly what would happen if we LEFT the EU.

 

[Gwadien]

Correct and you don't speak for anyone else as well. However, the leave voters I have spoken to HAVE said they wanted a no deal, just out of the EU. Period. Swings and roundabouts. The people spoke. Oh wait, let's keep having a referendum on leaving the EU until it swings to the Remain side. Listen, when voting has gone against me due to a majority I accepted it. That is democracy.

I knew the consequences when I cast my vote, it was a binary question and the Government dropped a flier into every house telling us exactly what would happen if we LEFT the EU.

When was the last time a vote went against you which led to so much uncertainty for the future, especially when many of those who voted Leave were not aware of the uncertainty/or are continuing to believe that the UK has some kind of leverage over the EU.

I don't like the idea of gambling, let alone gambling with the future of an entire country, we should make doubly sure that we want to go down this path.

 

[Deebs]

When was the last time a vote went against you which led to so much uncertainty for the future, especially when many of those who voted Leave were not aware of the uncertainty/or are continuing to believe that the UK has some kind of leverage over the EU.

Whenever Labour gets in power. How can you keep spouting all the shite that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for. I will leave this link here for you which the Government had dropped into every house in the UK. Make sure you read it all as it is pretty good at showing a bleak future if we leave.

Why the government believes that voting to remain in the EU is the best decision for the UK - with references

 

[Bodhi]

Correct and you don't speak for anyone else as well. However, the leave voters I have spoken to HAVE said they wanted a no deal, just out of the EU. Period. Swings and roundabouts. The people spoke. Oh wait, let's keep having a referendum on leaving the EU until it swings to the Remain side. Listen, when voting has gone against me due to a majority I accepted it. That is democracy.

I knew the consequences when I cast my vote, it was a binary question and the Government dropped a flier into every house telling us exactly what would happen if we LEFT the EU.

Silly Deebs, thinking you knew exactly what you voted for. Our resident Remainers are convinced that nobody on the Leave side knew this, and based it all off something on the side of a bus. Or something.

To be honest, if you ask me the only silly vote was someone who voted Remain thinking our relationship with the EU would stay the same, as we've seen from the EU Army comments this week and plans for Tax Harmonisation that was never on the table - there was no vote for the Status Quo. It was more or less Europe, staying the same was not an option. As a result, I would vote Leave again tomorrow in a flash, as I cannot see anything good coming from bureaucrats in Brussels having an army at their disposal. I mean sure, we have a Veto, but as Tax Harmonisation is already moving to a majority vote rather than unanimous, I don't see that doing us much good going forwards. Leave the Empire building to the small grey men in Brussels, we'll get on with trading with the rest of the world.

https://www.euronews.com/2018/01/04/ireland-and-hungary-reject-eu-wide-tax-harmonisation-moves

(Although after Leo's grandstanding during the negotiations my sympathy for Ireland would be limited in this case).

Mind you, given the developments in Italy, with their government basically telling the EU to go swivel over their latest budget, I'm shocked we aren't doing the same.

 

[Deebs]

Silly Deebs, thinking you knew exactly what you voted for. Our resident Remainers are convinced that nobody on the Leave side knew this, and based it all off something on the side of a bus. Or something.

To be honest, if you ask me the only silly vote was someone who voted Remain thinking our relationship with the EU would stay the same, as we've seen from the EU Army comments this week and plans for Tax Harmonisation that was never on the table - there was no vote for the Status Quo. It was more or less Europe, staying the same was not an option. As a result, I would vote Leave again tomorrow in a flash, as I cannot see anything good coming from bureaucrats in Brussels having an army at their disposal. I mean sure, we have a Veto, but as Tax Harmonisation is already moving to a majority vote rather than unanimous, I don't see that doing us much good going forwards. Leave the Empire building to the small grey men in Brussels, we'll get on with trading with the rest of the world.

https://www.euronews.com/2018/01/04/ireland-and-hungary-reject-eu-wide-tax-harmonisation-moves

(Although after Leo's grandstanding during the negotiations my sympathy for Ireland would be limited in this case).

Mind you, given the developments in Italy, with their government basically telling the EU to go swivel over their latest budget, I'm shocked we aren't doing the same.

Also there is this:

Hungary, Ireland oppose EU-wide tax harmonization efforts | Reuters

and I quote

The EU’s tax commissioner Pierre Moscovici said in November that the Commission was considering using extraordinary powers to strip EU states of their veto power on tax matters to break resistance over blocked legislation.

Imagine what is next if states veto stuff more in the future, I know, let's strip even more of their vetoing powers. Nah, not for me thanks.

Unfortunately our PM is too soft to follow Italy's lead and tell the EU to fuck off.

 

[Bodhi]

P.S The Remainer's favourite Leo sharing a platform with the evil despotic Orban of Hungary? Must have missed the outrage about that one.

 

[Ormorof]

Having watched TM in the Commons yesterday, and all the people slating her, I have to admire her will as a strong woman, however, I feel slightly for her, she tried her hardest to achieve something but ultimately she was the wrong PM for the job, the moment Cameron fucked off a Brexit PM was needed to fulfil the will of the people.

I would happily support a 2nd referendum with the following options:

1. Accept the PM deal and leave the EU
2. Take a no deal and leave the EU

Anything else is not the will of the people, we are leaving the EU, that is what the ref of 2016 confirmed as the will of the people.

It was the will of the people in 2016, 2 years later is it still?

I mean we have had elections for governments with big changes in shorter time frames

 

[Deebs]

It was the will of the people in 2016, 2 years later is it still?

I mean we have had elections for governments with big changes in shorter time frames

You don't keep having referendums until you get the answer you want. The vote was cast, counted and now has to be actioned. Once that is done by all means have another referendum on rejoining the EU.