Mercs damage.

[Infanity]

Been playing a friends thrust merc and noticed its damage was alot better than mine.. i thought this was because he was thrust .. turned out wrong.

My template has 101 str etc / better bonuses the lot than this merc. Higher rr etc.

The thrust merc has battler for the charge.. and when doing Flank on my mercenary with battler weapon (not charge debuffed)... it hit for more than my merc does with 67 slash. The thrust merc has 1+11.

Anyone has any ideas.. could this be a bug ?

 

[Afran]

1+11 thrust? ;o

 

[Elitestoner]

methinks 50+11

 

[Technodave]

Depends what you are hitting chain is weak to thrust and slash resistant so if ur testin this on your bot or vs another merc well thats about right

 

[Infanity]

Sorry.

The thrust merc has 1+11 slash and hits better... theres no way it should hit more than a slash merc with 67 combinded..

 

[Azathrim]

If you were using CD styles and only did a few swings, you might just have been lucky with the variance. Otherwise it sounds wierd, but would probably need a bit more information.

 

[Kinag]

Doesn't sound possible tbh. Tell me you're not testing that merc on a freeshard ie. the buggiest place on earth

 

[eggy]

My merc is thrust, 101 str, 101 dex, 250 qui.

I assume you mean he had battler equipped in offhand.

Maximum damage on a Flank (DW style) is related only to the amount of DW skill. Variance is attributed to the amount of Thrust skill. So, in theory, you could do 100 swings on a thrust merc with battler equipped and hit harder than on a slash merc. Unlikely, but possible.

Is your battler 100%?
Is your armour 100%?
Did you both have AF buffs?
Did he crit?
etc...

I messed around with the idea of using Malice offhand on thrust merc, but the damage variance was far too large to make it viable.

Oh, and in general, my merc does a shed-load of damage over time compared to slash mercs.

 

[Elitestoner]

hes using 2 toa'd mercs, one slash and one thrust, with the slash one being higher rr. using battler in the main hand and croc tooth in the off hand i think. his point is using DW styles that with 1+11 slash hes doing more than his own slash merc

also, bearing in mind weaponskill and toa bonuses are similar (slash merc being slightly higher) the fact that the slash merc is using 2x 4.1 weaps (with HO quickness) as compared to the thrust mercs saracen quickness and a 4.1 main (battler) and a 3.5 off hand (ctd) the slash merc should be doing way more damage, because he is hitting slower.

 

[eggy]

hes using 2 toa'd mercs, one slash and one thrust, with the slash one being higher rr. using battler in the main hand and croc tooth in the off hand i think. his point is using DW styles that with 1+11 slash hes doing more than his own slash merc

Yes I know, hence my reply.

Is your battler 100%?
Is your armour 100%?
Did you both have AF buffs?
Did he crit?
etc...

All still apply.

 

[Belgerath]

Also so if he has less quickness in his template he will do more damage per swing but less swings over time ofc but as Eggy said Flank is dependant on ur DW skill not ur main hand skill.

 

[Infanity]

Dual Wield goes from slash aswell, That why its hard to be mercfill and have alright damage.

Items are all fine etc.. and i did do quite alot of hits.

Rightnowd it.

 

[eggy]

Dual Wield goes from slash aswell,

Maximum cap DW damage is not affected by slash skill.
Lower cap DW damage is affected by slash skill.
Variance is affected by slash skill.

 

[Bahumat]

i love it when someone fails to listen to what others say, then they make up some BS post when proven wrong about being stoned or pissed to not look like a fool.

 

[Melachi]

Two things..


1) Is it possible that the Thrust merc has more effective DW skill? like 50+20, while the slash merc only has 50+6 or something..


2) Does the Thrust merc have 0 toa melee speed, but the Slash merc have 10?



3) Added this one, because wtf does this mean? "Dual Wield goes from slash aswell, That why its hard to be mercfill and have alright damage."

 

[eggy]

1) Is it possible that the Thrust merc has more effective DW skill? like 50+20, while the slash merc only has 50+6 or something..

No, he said he was higher RR than the thrust merc.

2) Does the Thrust merc have 0 toa melee speed, but the Slash merc have 10?

TOA melee speed doesn't work the same as quickness.

3) Added this one, because wtf does this mean? "Dual Wield goes from slash aswell, That why its hard to be mercfill and have alright damage."

I think he means that DW uses slash skill to calculate damage as well as just DW skill. However, that's only true in that the more slash skill you have, the higher the lower cap will be and with less variance.

 

[Darzil]

Is base weapon type and varience still alive ? Thought Wyrd tested that one through.

The way I've read it in tests is (when using dual wield styles, or polearm, or two handed, etc.) :

base weapon type (crush/thrust/slash) reduces damage done if below 51 modified spec, and affects the 50 style. Varience is pretty constant (think it's about 28% or something ?).

The affecting the 50 style is why mercs spec 50, not 3x on weapon type, as they use their 50 style so much.

Edit - Oh, and looks like the new weaponskill poisons give an advantage to those who spec higher than 51 modified. At a modified 68, you'd lose no damage when weaponskill debuffed !

Doesn't explain what's happening here. Checked condition on the weapons ?

Darzil

ps Some testing here : http://vnboards.ign.com/albion_fighter_professions/b20902/57670918/p1 - It's the polearm tests, but I think it has links in it to wyrds tests.

 

[Melachi]

No, he said he was higher RR than the thrust merc.

Guess what, you can be higher realm rank, and still have less +skills because of your suit....

TOA melee speed doesn't work the same as quickness.

Ive never heard about this, but ill actually go check it later when I log in.

I think he means that DW uses slash skill to calculate damage as well as just DW skill. However, that's only true in that the more slash skill you have, the higher the lower cap will be and with less variance.

Lower cap? Theres no lower cap lol, except 0.
Put simply, if you are using DW styles, then slash skill will be taken for base damage variance for both main hand and offhand.

This is also true, for a Thrust merc, who is using Thrust weapons ect..

I dont see what Slash has to do with DW with making Mercfills not that good?

 

[eggy]

Guess what, you can be higher realm rank, and still have less +skills because of your suit....

1) Is it possible that the Thrust merc has more effective DW skill? like 50+20, while the slash merc only has 50+6 or something..

I'd love to know how the merc (which is lower RR than Infinatys, which isn't RR11) could have 50+20. Just by Infinaty's RR, he'd have at least 50+6.

Lower cap? Theres no lower cap lol, except 0.

Yes there is. Have you noticed how damage is never lower than a certain value (before AF/Abs calculations)? Lower cap, dependant on baseline damage skill.

 

[Marc]

Owned

 

[eggy]

I'm not trying to "own" anyone, I'm just stating facts.

 

[Dracus]

Your specialization in the weapon type determines your "range" - the number between the minimum damage the weapon can do and the maximum. Let's say someone with no spec in sword can hit, with a certain type of sword, for as low as 5 points and as many as 20. If you have points in that type, you could still only hit for a max of 20, but your damage floor would be higher - let's say 10. The more spec points, the higher the floor. So being speced in a weapon type means you will over time do a much higher average damage than someone who is untrained.

Right from the horses mouth!

/Dracus

 

[Marc]

Oh sor-ee. Please accept my most humblest of apologies!!!!!!

 

[eggy]

Right from the horses mouth!

/Dracus

Exactly, thanks for that great link - have some rep.

 

[Puppet]

TOA melee speed doesn't work the same as quickness.

In what way is it working different ? Both increase your swinging-speed, and both lower your pure damage-caps (but improve dps) on styled swings. Both seem to have no effect on unstyled melee-damage. TOA-haste afaik works as normal 'haste' which is pretty much the same as quickness except for the obvious difference regarding its impact on evade.

I think he means that DW uses slash skill to calculate damage as well as just DW skill. However, that's only true in that the more slash skill you have, the higher the lower cap will be and with less variance.

This sounds very weird. A modified 51 slash skill is enough to reduce the variance to a minimum, except on Dualshadows, because Dualshadows is bugged like Ripper, Supernova and other advanced weaponline lvl 50 styles. They take the style-bonus from your primary weapon-spec instead of your advanced weapon-spec like the rest of the styles do.

In shear DPS, a slash merc has a higher DPS then a thrust merc if everything else is equal, quickness, weapon-speed(s), bonusses to skills IF your strength > your dexterity. The problem arises when a slash merc goes 4.1/4.1 weapon-setup, because he will loose DPS due to lowering his swing-speed.

AFAIK there is no 'lower cap', except 1 damage. If you hit something, it will always have 1 minimum-damage afaik. Im not aware of any other 'lower cap'.

 

[Puppet]

Right from the horses mouth!

/Dracus

Im pretty sure that information is bugged, afaik it increases your average, but not the bottom and upper floor of the damage you can do.

Try hitting the spawned mobs from ML5.10 or the ML4.10 mob with no pillars down to see what I mean

 

[Danamyr]

Dual Wield goes from slash aswell, That why its hard to be mercfill and have alright damage.

That's not true at all. A Mercfil can spec 50 DW, 50 Slash and still have enough for 35 Stealth. With that spec your damage would be insane. Obviously you'd have no Poison or CS, but that's the whole point of the spec.

 

[Azathrim]

Heh... the term "lower cap" ain't really used much and often doesn't give much meaning to use.

"upper cap" or cap damage makes much more sense to use. You have a maximum number any given style can do. Even if hitting that level 20 sitting greycon in rog armour - or the RR11 1000+ AF Paladin with BoF effect on (however unlikely it is to reach that number).

More often people think of lower cap as variance - I do at least. Simply put, how much will the damage vary from hit to hit in a given fight. Ofcourse variance and "lower cap" ain't the same, but they are highly related and variance really is the most interesting to talk about.

 

[eggy]

AFAIK there is no 'lower cap', except 1 damage. If you hit something, it will always have 1 minimum-damage afaik. Im not aware of any other 'lower cap'.

Hit a buffbot for 500 swings. You'll notice you never hit below a certain amount...as there is a 0% chance of hitting for 1 damage...ie a lower cap exists.

Amount of baseline skill (up to 51 effective levels) will then take a value between your lower cap and upper cap at 'random'.

 

[Azathrim]

Hit a buffbot for 500 swings. You'll notice you never hit below a certain amount...as there is a 0% chance of hitting for 1 damage...ie a lower cap exists.

Amount of baseline skill (up to 51 effective levels) will then take a value between your lower cap and upper cap at 'random'.

Then go and hit Draco and see see yourself hit for less. Hence people don't talk about lower cap as its confusing matters with lower cap being fully affected by the given opponent where as upper cap ain't.