Question Israel / Palestine - Is this accurate ?

[AngelHeal]

It is sad that we cannot imagine how some people think, only because they are taught that way since they were youngh... getting told that they are victims, and that the other party started first. Sometimes I would like to shout horrible stuff at them, but then I realize that even I could act that way if I have been taught to act like that since childhood.

There is no real saying in who owns that land if u look at history, people have been fighting there for thousands of years and it's a sad thought they might be doing that the next thousand....

Fact is though, palestinians do not have a claim to that land if they point at history... simply because they were not the first to own it, many different types of people/kings/religions (even befor christians, muslims etc..) owned those lands way befor them. And the west didn't act at all when Isreal was under fire...

I do not care what the solution is, but I do care that whatever it is, it will be done humanely.

 

[Scouse]

the problem has been orthodox "settlers" occupying unapproved land, and the Israeli authorities have been coming down pretty hard on the people who do it.

Lulz

 

[Poag]

It is sad that we cannot imagine how some people think, only because they are taught that way since they were youngh... getting told that they are victims, and that the other party started first. Sometimes I would like to shout horrible stuff at them, but then I realize that even I could act that way if I have been taught to act like that since childhood.

There is no real saying in who owns that land if u look at history, people have been fighting there for thousands of years and it's a sad thought they might be doing that the next thousand....

Fact is though, palestinians do not have a claim to that land if they point at history... simply because they were not the first to own it, many different types of people/kings/religions (even befor christians, muslims etc..) owned those lands way befor them. And the west didn't act at all when Isreal was under fire...

I do not care what the solution is, but I do care that whatever it is, it will be done humanely.

We'll drive them out with gas..it'll be humane...more or less....


----------------------------------------
In all seriousness, both sides are as bad as each other. You can't blame Israel for protecting its citizens, you can blame it for being over zealous tho.
People think the recent crap started up due to Israel blowing up 'that guy' (by most people i mean the mail reading masses), but the papers neglect to mention that Israel was getting a few rockets a day for the rest of the year.

Hamas aren't saints either, the cease fire was signed, following day, 20 rockets in the morning alone, + those above.



TBH is mostly our, British fault. When we carved it up we didn't exactly do a very good job of it. Would should have carved it into two countries Israel in the north and Palestine in the south. The 6day war probably would have happened anyway tho....

 

[DaGaffer]

Who knows - in some ways Israel has benefitted them by creating a unifying cause - without it I think the differences between Arab nations would probably have ended in their own wars.

Wars that they had anyway. To be honest, unless the objective of the west when Israel was founded was to keep the Middle East permanently destabilised (possible, but Occam's Razor suggests its doubtful anyone could be that prescient; if you were a betting man in 1948 you'd guess the Arab world would roll right over a bunch of dispossessed Jews straight out of the death camps), then supporting Israel unquestioningly, as the US has done, has just been a permanent pain in the arse.

It doesn't make the Americans money (in fact for years it hurt GM and Ford etc. in large parts of the middle east and most of the weapons they sold to Israel were heavily subsidised), it drove lots of Arab and African states into the arms of the Soviets during the Cold War, and when the Americans did get involved in a full on shooting war (Gulf War I), they had to leave their most powerful ally in the region on the sidelines because they couldn't form a "coalition of the willing" with Israel's involvement, and instead they had to divert resources to Israel (like Patriot missiles) away from protecting their own troops. Its been a pretty shitty deal from an American POV, all things considered.

 

[DaGaffer]

TBH is mostly our, British fault. When we carved it up we didn't exactly do a very good job of it. Would should have carved it into two countries Israel in the north and Palestine in the south. The 6day war probably would have happened anyway tho....

A solution the British suggested, and which was rejected....by the Palestinians. For the British, Palestine was an Imperial hangover we didn't want to deal with. We'd only been in the place since 1918, and didn't particularly want the place then (we wanted the more valuable Trans-Jordan as a potential oil route from Iraq, but if we hadn't taken Palestine, the French would have, because lest we forget, Palestine had never been a country up to that point, it was an Ottoman province and had been for five hundred years, but there were no Ottomans any more, and if the Western powers had given independence to the the arabs in the region in 1918 (which they should have, although it would have been bloody), there still wouldn't have been a Palestinian state; the place would have become Syrian, Jordanian or even Egyptian.

 

[rynnor]

Its been a pretty shitty deal from an American POV, all things considered.

Its been a deal thats help elect pretty much every president of the last 30-40 years - how many of them actually declared they wanted to cut spending on Israel?

 

[mr.Blacky]

Not closer to my thinking - and the retard majority isn't even capable of thinking about that sort of stuff.

Your thinking is closer to Hamas? From their charter:

Allah had inspired the Muslim poet, Muhammad Iqbal, when he said:
When the Faith wanes, there is no security
There is no this-worldliness for those who have no faith
Those who wish to live their life without religion
Have made annihilation the equivalent of life.

Don't think I have read something similar in the Jewish constitution. Yes there are more things but this one just was funny

Back to thread..
As for the British fault I disagree. They did a lot trying to make the Arabs win in '48, weapon embargo against Israel/Palestine but not against Egypt/Jordan/Syria also internment camps on Cyprus.
As for UN resolutions its about politics not about right or wrong, best example is Syria.

 

[Punishment]

I think we can sum up this thread with 2 words.

Fuck Religion

 

[Scouse]

Your thinking is closer to Hamas?

Where did I say anything like that, dickwad?

 

[old.user4556]

Where did I say anything like that, dickwad?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkdlhQavs0

 

[Scouse]

That's exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote it

 

[mr.Blacky]

Where did I say anything like that, dickwad?

Err in the quote, you are posting a comment on rynnor's post stating

That said us in the west should support Israel as being closer to our own thinking

Now you state that that for YOU that is not the case, so most people would assume that you mean that the other side is closer to your thinking, its rather simple.. as simple as 1+1 is 2.

Oh and a very civilized response of you.

 

[old.user4556]

That's exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote it

I was thinking, that you were thinking about it .

 

[Scouse]

I was thinking, that you were thinking about it .

I am wanking thinking about you thinking that I was thinking about it

 

[russell]

awwwwww Ive missed you lot ​

 

[old.user4556]

I am wanking thinking about you thinking that I was thinking about it

I am secretly filming you wanking over me thinking about me thinking that you was thinking about ..... did I get that right...

 

[Poag]

A solution the British suggested, and which was rejected....by the Palestinians. For the British, Palestine was an Imperial hangover we didn't want to deal with. We'd only been in the place since 1918, and didn't particularly want the place then (we wanted the more valuable Trans-Jordan as a potential oil route from Iraq, but if we hadn't taken Palestine, the French would have, because lest we forget, Palestine had never been a country up to that point, it was an Ottoman province and had been for five hundred years, but there were no Ottomans any more, and if the Western powers had given independence to the the arabs in the region in 1918 (which they should have, although it would have been bloody), there still wouldn't have been a Palestinian state; the place would have become Syrian, Jordanian or even Egyptian.

Was not aware this is what we had tried. Guess its not our fault..



Yay Britain!

 

[DaGaffer]

Its been a deal thats help elect pretty much every president of the last 30-40 years - how many of them actually declared they wanted to cut spending on Israel?

You've got the logic the wrong way around. The Jewish vote is critical in a lot of key swing states (Florida in particular). You wouldn't get elected if you didn't "stay strong" on Israel. Certain presidents, (mainly Democrats, and Clinton in particular) have cut aid to Israel, but only when they were strong enough to do so. Its a similar problem with the Cuban issue; most American politicians aren't actually retarded and would prefer to normalise relations with Cuba but there's a key bunch of voters (once again, in Florida) who can stop that happening by their influence at the polls. If the US got rid of the Electoral College system, a lot of these issues would go away (although of course they'd be replaced by other issues we'd probably find as bad or worse).

 

[Tom]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

 

[Scouse]

The idea of "owning land" is fucking ridiculous anyway.

But that's just another hippie idea I guess...


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY

 

[old.Tohtori]

The idea of "owning land" is fucking ridiculous anyway.

Would you be willing to let anyone off the street to enter your apartment at any time? POV question, no need to argue, just asking

 

[DaGaffer]

The idea of "owning land" is fucking ridiculous anyway.

But that's just another hippie idea I guess...


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY

Oh God, you went with John Lennon. I may throw up.

Stalin thought the idea of owning land was ridiculous as well. That idea went well for the Kulaks.

 

[Tom]

Quoting John Lennon is all very well but he was something of a misogynist and apparently, in his earlier years, not a very nice person.

 

[Raven]

He was in it for the money.

 

[Scouse]

Oh God, you went with John Lennon. I may throw up.

Fair enough - I could easily share that feeling about it.

However, are you saying that the ideas therein are incorrect?

Stalin thought the idea of owning land was ridiculous as well. That idea went well for the Kulaks.

Stalin had the right idea. However, he was a cunt.

Which leads nicely into...

Quoting John Lennon is all very well but he was something of a misogynist and apparently, in his earlier years, not a very nice person.

All humans are a mixture of qualities. Should we only listen to messages from "perfect" people?

All men are total shits in their "earlier years" IMO

He was in it for the money.

Really?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4IrM9P-zcs&feature=fvwrel

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thinking song lyrics are any real indicator of a persons true nature is like thinking rebecca black has a fetish about vehicle seating.

 

[DaGaffer]

However, are you saying that the ideas therein are incorrect?

God yes. The human condition is to strive and want, not sit about scratching our arses.

Stalin had the right idea. However, he was a cunt.

Which leads nicely into...

No he didn't have the right idea. At all. Which is why 20m people died proving it.

All humans are a mixture of qualities. Should we only listen to messages from "perfect" people?

All men are total shits in their "earlier years" IMO

Speak for yourself. I was lovely in my earlier years, I saved my cuntishness for later when being lovely turned out to be a poor life choice.

Really?

Easy to be righteous when you've already got a king's ransom in the bank.

 

[Scouse]

Thinking song lyrics are any real indicator of a persons true nature is like thinking rebecca black has a fetish about vehicle seating.

You're right Toht. Everyone's lying. Nobody writes from the heart.

Especially Lennon. He was a cunt all right.

 

[Scouse]

God yes. The human condition is to strive and want, not sit about scratching our arses.

Two things:

1) I don't think the song says "sit about and scratch your arse" anywhere, nor does it give that message.
2) I don't think the human condition is to strive and want at all. Not even slightly. I think that's what we're stimulated and taught to do. But fuck that.

Easy to be righteous when you've already got a king's ransom in the bank.

What's "righteous" about it?

Yep. He was rich. And got out of the race for pure enjoyment.

I can identify with that. Why not?

 

[DaGaffer]

Two things:

1) I don't think the song says "sit about and scratch your arse" anywhere, nor does it give that message.

Yes it does, equality and no possessions. The very act of doing anything, creates inequalities. It has to.

2) I don't think the human condition is to strive and want at all. Not even slightly. I think that's what we're stimulated and taught to do. But fuck that.

Well we may as well all go back to the trees then. And you know what? We'd still find we need to strive and want. This isn't the human condition, is the condition of biological life.

What's "righteous" about it?

Yep. He was rich. And got out of the race for pure enjoyment.

I can identify with that. Why not?

Raven said "he was in it for the money", you posted him singing a trite song about how all that shit is unimportant, with the implication that he wasn't in it for the money, which is a really easy statement to make, if you're already rich. It would have been a more impressive message if he'd gone to live in Ashram and given all his money away, but strangely he didn't do that. How odd...