Question Israel / Palestine - Is this accurate ?

[throdgrain]

It's a fantasy world you live in I'm afraid Scouse

 

[DaGaffer]

Lol.

The UN would LOVE to deal with Israel. Love to. They pass resolution after resolution against Israel.

But to what end? Oh, yes, the US and UK veto it (actually, the UK tends to "abstain" from the vote - lol).

So it seems we ARE telling them how to live - by lending support to a country that runs a violent apartheid system against a prisoner population we say "it's fine - murder who you like - we'll keep the UN at bay for you"...

We're cunts.

Since 1983 the UK has never vetoed a resolution against Israel. Its abstained on about half the occasions (26 votes, 14 abstentions). And if you want to have a pop about indiscriminate use of veto power, the Americans have got nothing on the Russians (50% more Russian/Soviet vetoes than the US, 400% more than the UK). Its never as simple as "we're bad they're good", or vice-versa.

 

[Scouse]

Since 1983 the UK has never vetoed a resolution against Israel. Its abstained on about half the occasions

I refer you, Mr DaGaffer, to the thing you bloody well quoted in your reply where I address the abstaining UK.

And I have noticed you haven't addressed the issue of Fuckloads upon fuckloads upon fuckloads of resolutions against Israel.

Israel has that many resolutions against it because, as a country, it's a despicable piece of shit that needs wiping off the map.

Single-state. Mbungambigiland. Secular government. Enforced by the west. The ONLY solution.

 

[DaGaffer]

I refer you, Mr DaGaffer, to the thing you bloody well quoted in your reply where I address the abstaining UK.

And I have noticed you haven't addressed the issue of Fuckloads upon fuckloads upon fuckloads of resolutions against Israel.

Israel has that many resolutions against it because, as a country, it's a despicable piece of shit that needs wiping off the map.

Single-state. Mbungambigiland. Secular government. Enforced by the west. The ONLY solution.

You have to separate Security Council resolutions (where the veto matters, and was all I was talking about) from General Assembly resolutions (which are basically hot air and resolutions are thrown around like confetti).

 

[Scouse]

It's a fantasy world you live in I'm afraid Scouse

No. I live in the real world but I hope for a better one. Dreamers are the people who move our society forward. Without them it never changes.


Mongol: I wish we lived in a world where people could live without fear of decapitation by warlords.
2nd Mongol: Don't be fucking daft, you're a dreamer. Mr TheHun would never allow it.
Mongol: Maybe we could "vote" for things that we think are most important?
2nd Mongol: You live in a fantasy world my friend. The strong will always dominate the weak through violence.

...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Edit: Toht has given perfect weight to my argument

If anyone from the galactic argument council reads this, i assure it was an accident to do that.

 

[throdgrain]

No. I live in the real world but I hope for a better one. Dreamers are the people who move our society forward. Without them it never changes.


Mongol: I wish we lived in a world where people could live without fear of decapitation by warlords.
2nd Mongol: Don't be fucking daft, you're a dreamer. Mr TheHun would never allow it.
Mongol: Maybe we could "vote" for things that we think are most important?
2nd Mongol: You live in a fantasy world my friend. The strong will always dominate the weak through violence.

...

lol Honestly.

People will fight for what they think they want/need. It's a fact. They always have and they always will. The reason I'm so hot against gun control and selef defence control etc is because there will always be people who want to hurt you, and you can type what you want on an internet forum to argue against that but it's just a fact.

I can just imagine a world where we reduce our armed forces and hope that just because we are doing the right thing, so will everyone else. lol again Then when we got invaded people with your attitude would be sitting there squeaking "but it just isnt FAIR!!"

No, indeed it isnt

 

[old.Tohtori]

Weeeell, sure, if everyone carried guns then getting mugged at gunpoint would be less likely, but you'd also be more likely to get shot for butting in line for the 3am hamburger after a night out.

 

[Scouse]

Throddy's confusing the need for personal defence with the abhorrent policies of our politicians and the morons in the armed forces who are stupid enough to do what the power hungry twats want.

I agree with Throddy on personal defence. Completely.

We, however, do not need an "offence" budget.

 

[soze]

We, however, do not need an "offence" budget.

In your world what military power would the UK hold? If Argentina captured the Falklands and the British citizens there would your military have the power to do anything about it?

 

[throdgrain]

Weeeell, sure, if everyone carried guns then getting mugged at gunpoint would be less likely, but you'd also be more likely to get shot for butting in line for the 3am hamburger after a night out.

Really?

 

[Scouse]

In your world ...blah blah blah

You guys think so small.

In my world there'd be no borders


Edit: I'm more interested in this sort of stuff (video's good) than the chimpanzee-like worries of the vast majority of monkey humans...

Delegates from Cyprus and Turkey (which do not have diplomatic relations) and from Israel, Iran and Pakistan (the latter two having no relations with Israel) sat together, alongside Jordanians, Palestinians and Egyptians. Given the degree of tension at a political level, the atmosphere was amazingly calm and businesslike.

...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Really?

Really.

 

[opticle]

The idea of a noble savage as what you seem be stating are almost as bad and are rooted in the same principle.

You're probably right on the noble savage. I've always been an idealist.

I'm aware its far more complicated than that, and they are as much to blame, but I do think we've fucked up the development and progression of their society / culture over the past few hundred years. That interference is obviously inevitable in a modern world, but as with individual people, coming to conclusions and ideals on your own, such as equal rights, is far more effective than having them forced upon you.

For example, I'm not sure every country out there is ready for or capable of democracy yet - and forcing it upon them doesn't help.

.

In response to the Scouse / Throd debate - I think you're both right.. Scouse you are being an idealist, but I agree - we should be investing in order to be able to defend ourselves and our friends. That does include being able to protect the Falklands too. A world without weapons won't be possible for a very long time - and you have to be able to defend yourself or you're a target (unless you're Scotland) - but we should be planning for peace and protecting people, rather than war, oil and settling old scores.

 

[Poag]

You guys think so small.

In my world there'd be no borders


Edit: I'm more interested in this sort of stuff (video's good) than the chimpanzee-like worries of the vast majority of monkey humans...



...

In my world there'd be no wars, religion. I'd call it the empire...

 

[Scouse]

In my world there'd be no wars, religion. I'd call it the empire...

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Poag]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Thats "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Sir" tyvm.

 

[rynnor]

In the end humans will always fight over limited resources - land in the middle east on the mediterranean coast is in limited supply thus conflict.

Its no different to any other warzone - it always about controlling land/resources - it just gets dressed up differently afterwards.

That said us in the west should support Israel as being closer to our own thinking and therefore by proxy Israel extends our influence into the middle east.

There is no room on this planet for neutrals - its just not large enough and resources are increasingly in short supply - in the end we will all fight to hold onto our land/resources - it's not in itself immoral just part of reality. Of course some will win and some will lose but thats the way it is - be thankful that your not one of those losing.

 

[Scouse]

That said us in the west should support Israel as being closer to our own thinking

Not closer to my thinking - and the retard majority isn't even capable of thinking about that sort of stuff.

It's closer to the thinking of a small group of rich white wankers hell bent on controlling everything, that's all.

 

[DaGaffer]

In the end humans will always fight over limited resources - land in the middle east on the mediterranean coast is in limited supply thus conflict.

Its no different to any other warzone - it always about controlling land/resources - it just gets dressed up differently afterwards.

That said us in the west should support Israel as being closer to our own thinking and therefore by proxy Israel extends our influence into the middle east.

There is no room on this planet for neutrals - its just not large enough and resources are increasingly in short supply - in the end we will all fight to hold onto our land/resources - it's not in itself immoral just part of reality. Of course some will win and some will lose but thats the way it is - be thankful that your not one of those losing.

Generally, I'd agree with you, but Israel isn't a "resource" war, unless the resource in question is ideological bullshit. Apart from a bit of coast that handily points in two directions, Israel has fuck all to commend it from a strategic wealth perspective. No oil, not much water, indifferent farm land (Lebanon has far more going for it in that respect), and nothing that the arab world doesn't have more and better of elsewhere.

As for the US backing Israel because of "influence", nothing could be further from the truth. Many of the US's strategic problems would go away if they didn't have to worry about Israel. They back them because of the domestic Jewish vote and some dubious Christian wish-fulfillment.

 

[rynnor]

You cant really judge a country by how it behaves under attack - I think in peacetime Israel would fit in very well with the west - it has democracy, trades extensively, believes in capitalism, has low corruption etc. etc.

Its just not so easy to see in wartime.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Has there even been one period of human history when some kind of war wasn't going on?

It's just how this planet operates.

 

[rynnor]

Generally, I'd agree with you, but Israel isn't a "resource" war, unless the resource in question is ideological bullshit.

Its a land grab - Israel has an expanding population and needs the decent farming lands and sources of fresh water.

If Israel disappeared tonight the middle east would still be full of problems for the US - potentially things could be worse.

 

[Zenith]

Sure, they have low corruption while they imprison their own human rights activists all over Israel.

Rynnor, Israel is a not just a passive, reactionary player in this war. They are not simply a state "under attack". In the last decade, they are the ones taking the initiative, so you argument is quite flawed..

 

[Zenith]

Plus: the Israeli-Palestine question has always been a thorn in the side for the US regarding diplomacy with Egypt and Turkey...

 

[rynnor]

Sure, they have low corruption while they imprison their own human rights activists all over Israel.

Rynnor, Israel is a not just a passive, reactionary player in this war. They are not simply a state "under attack". In the last decade, they are the ones taking the initiative, so you argument is quite flawed..

I wasn't arguing that they were being passive - they are on a land grab seeking to expand - as has happened since time immemorial.

 

[rynnor]

Plus: the Israeli-Palestine question has always been a thorn in the side for the US regarding diplomacy with Egypt and Turkey...

Egypt and Turkey are both sliding into becoming theocracies though - Israel is not the only thing de-stabilising the Middle East area.

 

[rynnor]

Sure, they have low corruption while they imprison their own human rights activists all over Israel.

Corruption is about bribery and nothing to do with your point about activists - what I was highlighting is that the surrounding states all have much higher levels of corruption (endemic bribery) thus Israel is a lot more like the west.

On the human rights activists - I'm afraid in wartime states expect a certain unity and tend to imprison those who dont tow the party line or that it even suspects might not.

During WW2 the US interned in detention camps all its citizens of Japanese origin - the UK stuck all its fascists and other perceived trouble makers into camps right from the start of the war and didn't let them out until it was over.

 

[DaGaffer]

Its a land grab - Israel has an expanding population and needs the decent farming lands and sources of fresh water.

If Israel disappeared tonight the middle east would still be full of problems for the US - potentially things could be worse.

It would now, because its been backing Israel for 60 years. But if Israel had never existed in the first place? Very different story.

As for water, Israel has already backed desalinisation as the only viable option for water usage growth. Between 1998 and 2020 their water demand is expected to go from 2100 MTM (Million Metric Tonnes) to 2680 MTM, desalinisation will supply 450 MTM of that 580 increase (77%) and the rest will come from improved sewage plants and importation from Turkey(!!). Israel actually exports water to Jordan (not much, but still). Its a myth that Israel is interested in a land grab; the problem has been orthodox "settlers" occupying unapproved land, and the Israeli authorities have been coming down pretty hard on the people who do it.

If Israel was going to do a land grab, they wouldn't piss around with bits of Gaza; they'd do a Stalin in set up buffer zones a hundred KM into Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt (something they seriously considered after the Yom Kippur war). After all, it would put all those pesky missiles out of range and who would stop them?

 

[rynnor]

It would now, because its been backing Israel for 60 years. But if Israel had never existed in the first place? Very different story.

Who knows - in some ways Israel has benefitted them by creating a unifying cause - without it I think the differences between Arab nations would probably have ended in their own wars.