Iraq Civil War?

[Raven]

Worked (sort of) in Israel. Also, Afghanistan is a completely different thing.

 

[DaGaffer]

Worked (sort of) in Israel. Also, Afghanistan is a completely different thing.

First of all, the "worked for Israel" argument isn't valid. ISIL are not an ethnic group and there are plenty of Islamic countries where they can practice their religion freely, including the one(s) they've taken over. Second, as far as the West is concerned, how is ISIL really that different from Afghanistan? Fundamentalists take over a state, eventually invite terrorists in to use the place as a base of operations. You think ISIL won't do that?

 

[Gwadien]

First of all, the "worked for Israel" argument isn't valid. ISIL are not an ethnic group and there are plenty of Islamic countries where they can practice their religion freely, including the one(s) they've taken over. Second, as far as the West is concerned, how is ISIL really that different from Afghanistan? Fundamentalists take over a state, eventually invite terrorists in to use the place as a base of operations. You think ISIL won't do that?

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[Scouse]

ISIL are not an ethnic group

Neither are the Jews. Regardless of how much they would like to paint themselves as such and despite their racist religious dictats on who and what they can marry.

Jews = Catholics = Muslims. Same shit.

 

[DaGaffer]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

What the fuck does that mean?

Neither are the Jews. Regardless of how much they would like to paint themselves as such and despite their racist religious dictats on who and what they can marry.

Jews = Catholics = Muslims. Same shit.

I think we've already established that the founding of Israel on ethnic or religious grounds was a lousy idea anyway, so why condone the founding of ISIL for even shakier reasons? At least the Jews had some genuine historical reasoning for getting a state of their own so that everyone would stop sticking them in ovens*; ISIL have no such justification; "we want a Caliphate", "and I want the moon on a stick, fuck off".

(*we can argue all day long about whether such a justification is valid, but when it comes to existential threats, it trumps anything ISIL have got).

 

[Job]

My wife is a catholic...not surprising because Liverpool is the bible belt of the UK and we grew up in the same town for around 15 years and never met because the two communities never mixed..we being protestants (no religion in other words) They were inoctrinated and I'm talking this fricking millenia that protestants were basically scruffy..ill disciplined..hedonostic and untrustworthy.
I can safely say everyone of her family and friends had the mindset of villagers from a 12th century ghost story.
They spoke of poltergeist..speaking in tongues..dead relatives saving them from harm..like it was an accepted truth.
I have of course rid most of them of this brainwashing..but imagine how bad it is in the middle east.

 

[Scouse]

I think we've already established that the founding of Israel on ethnic or religious grounds was a lousy idea anyway, so why condone the founding of ISIL for even shakier reasons? At least the Jews had some genuine historical reasoning for getting a state of their own so that everyone would stop sticking them in ovens*; ISIL have no such justification; "we want a Caliphate", "and I want the moon on a stick, fuck off".

I don't see any difference in validity between the two tbfh. Both sets of reasons are utterly bullshit.

The situation now is about what they can do. Not their reasons for it. And it seems they've done it and we're going to have to live with it.

 

[DaGaffer]

My wife is a catholic...not surprising because Liverpool is the bible belt of the UK and we grew up in the same town for around 15 years and never met because the two communities never mixed..we being protestants (no religion in other words) They were inoctrinated and I'm talking this fricking millenia that protestants were basically scruffy..ill disciplined..hedonostic and untrustworthy.
I can safely say everyone of her family and friends had the mindset of villagers from a 12th century ghost story.
They spoke of poltergeist..speaking in tongues..dead relatives saving them from harm..like it was an accepted truth.
I have of course rid most of them of this brainwashing..but imagine how bad it is in the middle east.

Slightly ironic given that Protestantism was largely driven by exactly the same views about Catholicism.

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't see any difference in validity between the two tbfh. Both sets of reasons are utterly bullshit.

The situation now is about what they can do. Not their reasons for it. And it seems they've done it and we're going to have to live with it.

Or we strangle it. I vote for strangle.

 

[Raven]

You can't strangle an idea.

 

[DaGaffer]

You can't strangle an idea.

Nonsense. We strangled communism with consumer durables and pop music.

 

[Job]

Slightly ironic given that Protestantism was largely driven by exactly the same views about Catholicism.

Well yes I was going to mention that but the post was getting too long...we thought all catholics were one step away from Irish gippos.

 

[Scouse]

Or we strangle it. I vote for strangle.

Boots on the ground again? When part of the major justification in jihadist's mind is the warmongering of the immoral west?

 

[DaGaffer]

Boots on the ground again? When part of the major justification in jihadist's mind is the warmongering of the immoral west?

Nope. Arm the Kurds, invite the Iranians to support the Shia, arm Assad, use air strikes.

 

[Raven]

Because arming minority groups always works really well.

 

[Scouse]

Nope. Arm the Kurds, invite the Iranians to support the Shia, arm Assad, use air strikes.

More guns ain't the answer.

If a product is good then people flock to it. No advertising, no campaigns, people just get it and then want it. In droves.

We need to make our society something that people flock to rather than one people want to tear down. Then young muslims won't be tempted to leave the west for a piece of shit islamic caliphate...

 

[Scouse]

What's the matter @Embattle? Leading by example too high-falutin' an idea for you?

If what we had was that good then people would be staying, not leaving...

 

[Embattle]

What's the matter @Embattle? Leading by example too high-falutin' an idea for you?

If what we had was that good then people would be staying, not leaving...

I've never believed you to be stupid but perhaps I was wrong if you truly believe that to be the case, you might reduce the rate of leavers but it isn't as if many of them really had any thing to complain about.

 

[Embattle]

Nope. Arm the Kurds, invite the Iranians to support the Shia, arm Assad, use air strikes.

The Kurds will get more support not only because they are probably the most trustworthy but also out of self interest for the west, air strikes will probably be ramped up but the Assad and Iranians ideas are never likely to happen.

 

[Scouse]

it isn't as if many of them really had any thing to complain about.

Try talking to a muslim, living in a country that has been demonising them for the past ten-plus years.

Add to that the fact that the majority of them live on the lower end of the economic scale - and the fact that "indigenous" brits in the same situation aren't exactly jumping for joy at their lot, what with our massively unequal society, increasingly lurching to the right...

I'm not exactly enamoured with our society, and I'm a reasonably well-educated, reasonably well-off white person. How are you supposed to feel when you're brown, poor and marginalised?

The west needs to massively up its game. There was once a promise of fairness and social justice. Now there's unbridled greed, exposed corruption and increasing oppression. Relative to other countries? No. We're still better off here.

Going in the right direction? Absolutely not.

 

[Gwadien]

Some Kurds have been fighting for freedoms for ages.

Some are happy with having autonomy, but don't be surprised when ISIS are dealt with they start their own rebellion.

 

[Embattle]

Try talking to a muslim, living in a country that has been demonising them for the past ten-plus years.

Add to that the fact that the majority of them live on the lower end of the economic scale - and the fact that "indigenous" brits in the same situation aren't exactly jumping for joy at their lot, what with our massively unequal society, increasingly lurching to the right...

I'm not exactly enamoured with our society, and I'm a reasonably well-educated, reasonably well-off white person. How are you supposed to feel when you're brown, poor and marginalised?

The west needs to massively up its game. There was once a promise of fairness and social justice. Now there's unbridled greed, exposed corruption and increasing oppression. Relative to other countries? No. We're still better off here.

Going in the right direction? Absolutely not.

I work/worked with a whole load of Muslims and none of them feel demonised or anything with one exception, a Muslim who came from Madagascar via France to the UK. Now he held the more extremist views on many aspects of what he misguidedly believed the Koran said although it was ironic that most the other Muslims didn't like talking to him and those that did argued with him over his interpretation, however for me and many others it was a moot point since he was a liar, unreliable and had a tendency to stalk various female members of staff.

Generally as for the rest of your post it more or less sticks to the typical Scouse profile

 

[old.Tohtori]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Biblicly the chicken, evolution wise the egg.

 

[DaGaffer]

Because arming minority groups always works really well.

The Kurds aren't a minority in their own lands. If there's one ethnic group in the whole region that deserves its own country, its the Kurds, as they've been fucked over by the Turks, the Persians and the Arabs for millennia.

 

[Gwadien]

The Kurds aren't a minority in their own lands. If there's one ethnic group in the whole region that deserves its own country, its the Kurds, as they've been fucked over by the Turks, the Persians and the Arabs for millennia.

The Arabs don't like them, so therefore we don't they're a lesser of two evils in the diplomacy that is the most important diplomacy, economic diplomacy

 

[Ormorof]

And Iran and Turkey would be less than pleased with an independent Kurdistan state due to their own conflict regions

 

[Job]

On look northwest last night ( our regional bbc news) the head of the ramadan association..a slightly westernised muslim..who's probably a bit controversial in his own community said the main problem is that many muslim men think young white girls are worthless trash...the interviewers mouth dropped open...oh fuck someone talking the truth about multi cultarism who she couldnt shout down as a racist.

 

[DaGaffer]

On look northwest last night ( our regional bbc news) the head of the ramadan association..a slightly westernised muslim..who's probably a bit controversial in his own community said the main problem is that many muslim men think young white girls are worthless trash...the interviewers mouth dropped open...oh fuck someone talking the truth about multi cultarism who she couldnt shout down as a racist.

Ah the easy virtue of white women, its a long term problem...

 

[Gwadien]

So white women throw theirselves at muslim men, and then the muslim men are at fault?

 

[Job]

Well yes when the girl is quite clearly underage and vulnerable...getting her addicted to crack and organising a gang bang for her is ever so slightly against the law