How to make RvR balanced?

[Nate]

Hey guys,

I'm sure we're all getting a little bored of zerging and getting zerged. In my opinion the game should not be won by having a larger army, there should be at least some challenge. Otherwise whats the point in running around in small groups/having small Guilds? They should at least be effective at doing something.

So if any of you guys have any ideas for what to do about the situation, post them here.

Heres a couple of mine:

• Bring in NPC's to RvR lakes, when a realm is overpopulated in a zone's RvR lake reinforcements should be sent until it balances out.

• Reduce the effectiveness of large numbers against smaller numbers. You shouldn't gain morale if you are a 2 warbands killing a soloer.

 

[Urgat]

Personally..

I think the "Zergs" is actually the INTENT of mythic.

WAR is everywhere etc....

No complaints from me... big armies fighting it out is the win in my book.

 

[Nate]

I don't have a problem with big armies fighting big armies, what I don't like is when one big army has a lot more then the other and has no problem wiping the floor with them. It shouldn't be a bump in the road like it currently is.

 

[Toel]

Introduce mezz, that way even the smallest group with a well placed mezz could prevail.

 

[Dre@d]

WIch RVR? all i see now is ppl pve'ing empty keeps, or waiting for the other side to get the keep so they can pve it, looks like implementing the permanent gold bag drop on keeps was a mistake...

 

[Tallen]

WIch RVR? all i see now is ppl pve'ing empty keeps, or waiting for the other side to get the keep so they can pve it, looks like implementing the permanent gold bag drop on keeps was a mistake...

Can only speak for Karak Hirn, but most of the week orvr in T4 has been awesome

 

[Ezeine]

Massive zergs and small skirmishes in Praag.

Awesome

 

[Ctuchik]

Personally..

I think the "Zergs" is actually the INTENT of mythic.

it is but all the former FG vs FG ppl from DAoC hates it because they cant show off their "1337 skillz".

i really dont know why these ppl play MMORPG's for when they are just trying to remake it into a CS clone.

why dont they just play CS then? i'm sure theres a mod out there that have swords and shit.

 

[Nate]

Guys seriuosly, enough of this bullshit how many times are you going to have a moan about the same old rubbish. I'm not talking about FG vs FG or anything like that. What I'm on about is how a bigger zerg can make a cake-walk of any RvR. Please go back and read what the OP said.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Introduce mezz, that way even the smallest group with a well placed mezz could prevail.

Seconded - the lack of ranged mass-crowd control is just silly for an rvr-game. Hell even just a 10 second RANGED, CASTED root and mezz would be excellent.

You can't tell me that the pbaoe root that is about the only form of mass-CC order has is going to be worth a damn now that all roots break on any damage (even DoT ticks) from anyone?

 

[Tallen]

Seconded - the lack of ranged mass-crowd control is just silly for an rvr-game. Hell even just a 10 second RANGED, CASTED root and mezz would be excellent.

You can't tell me that the pbaoe root that is about the only form of mass-CC order has is going to be worth a damn now that all roots break on any damage (even DoT ticks) from anyone?

Why not do just that and rename it DAoC2...

One of DAoC's big failures was they could never get the aoe cc right, modern gamers will not put up with being completely imobilised for any length of time, it's too frustrating and they will simply quit as happened with many of the DAoC newcomers. At least with the roots you can still cast and melee. Ok, you can't move, but you are not completely taken out of the game.

 

[Zede]

it is but all the former FG vs FG ppl from DAoC hates it because they cant show off their "1337 skillz".

i really dont know why these ppl play MMORPG's for when they are just trying to remake it into a CS clone.

why dont they just play CS then? i'm sure theres a mod out there that have swords and shit.

Im pretty sure in time WAR will mature, giving rise to FG vs FG action.

I sincerely hope you are wtfpwnd by set group after set group. Using leet skills such as ( will try and use simple terms for those not in the know) " voice communications " and here is a mind blower - some set grps in DaoC actually pre-arranged a group the night before ! Some even wore the same colour, i jest not.

You see Mr fucking clueless - thats all being " leet" in Daoc ever was. Just some like minded friends who decided they didnt want to zerg anymore, tbh im gald it gets on your tits - long may it continue.

 

[svartalf]

Hey guys,

I'm sure we're all getting a little bored of zerging and getting zerged. In my opinion the game should not be won by having a larger army, there should be at least some challenge. Otherwise whats the point in running around in small groups/having small Guilds? They should at least be effective at doing something.

So if any of you guys have any ideas for what to do about the situation, post them here.

I only played level 30ish in beta of WAR, but it seems that you would like to identify the factors which would allow smaller groups to defeat larger ones, such as The battle of Thermopylae (279 BC)

You could factor in such things as Surprise attacks, Terrain, Leadership, Air Superiority etc

I refer you to this ANALYSIS OF FACTORS THAT HAVE INFLUENCED OUTCOMES OF BATTLES AND WARS: A DATA BASE OF ENGAGEMENTS AND BATTLES for further reading: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADB086797&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

This should provide you with fodder for ideas of your own for appropriate application within your game.

 

[Mr_Grumpy]

Im pretty sure in time WAR will immature, giving rise to FG vs FG action.

Fixed.Mr Shitforbrains.

 

[Xandax]

Im pretty sure in time WAR will mature, giving rise to FG vs FG action.

I sincerely hope you are wtfpwnd by set group after set group. Using leet skills such as ( will try and use simple terms for those not in the know) " voice communications " and here is a mind blower - some set grps in DaoC actually pre-arranged a group the night before ! Some even wore the same colour, i jest not.

You see Mr fucking clueless - thats all being " leet" in Daoc ever was. Just some like minded friends who decided they didnt want to zerg anymore, tbh im gald it gets on your tits - long may it continue.

Actually you forgot becoming totally condescending towards others thinking themselves a lot better then everybody else (oh, wait, looking at your post, it doesn't seem you forgot) , complaining because people attacked enemies due to some imaginary and privately thought up rules of engagement (don't add noob), ignoring of any realm sense because it was the FG over all (who cares about relics, we're farming RP), and other such wonderful behaviour in your list.
Perhaps the rose tainted daoc days weren't only wonderful but there were quirks and kinks. DAoC was very much a zerg based game in its days.

 

[Klonk]

DAoC was very much a zerg based game in its days.

Especially for certain realms/sides Still having nightmares about being gangbanged by the Outlaw/Zoyster alb zerg on Excal sometimes Respect to them though, they were pretty inclusive :wub:

 

[Zede]

Actually you forgot becoming totally condescending towards others thinking themselves a lot better then everybody else (oh, wait, looking at your post, it doesn't seem you forgot) , complaining because people attacked enemies due to some imaginary and privately thought up rules of engagement (don't add noob), ignoring of any realm sense because it was the FG over all (who cares about relics, we're farming RP), and other such wonderful behaviour in your list.
Perhaps the rose tainted daoc days weren't only wonderful but there were quirks and kinks. DAoC was very much a zerg based game in its days.

From an Alb Pryd point of view - Your talking about a VERY small sub-set within the FG crowd, and from pre-NF too. Thats what gets on everyones tits ( those who liked to play in a FG) is ignorant people like yourself who just lump everyone who dared to be in a set grp into this "leet" catagory, with all the supposed nastiness that came with it.

Your cliched attitude & the supposed mindset of people who ran in a set grp - really 99% of the those people had no attitude or "leetness" what so ever - I knew them all , I know what they were like - DID YOU ? or just clueless supposition as per fuckin usual. Oh sorry, was I being elitist just then ?

 

[Fanguir]

Mezz r for albs and cowards

 

[Fefner]

For one i dont dislike the zerg i just dont want to see it happening all the time. But the zergs happen cause the respawn point is far to close to the action, i keep saying it and i'll say it again, remove the respawn spot away from the open rvr zone so ppl will have to walk some distance to get back into the action. Mythic had it just about right in daoc, when you died in daoc you respawned back to the portal keep then you either had to wait for the teleport via portal pad or in later days the nearest keep to the action. All that took a while to get back into the action and so much could of happened by the time you got back. In WAR, you kill a group or 2 then roughly 10 secs time you see them again. I remember when you wanted to take a keep in OF you needed to plan ahead and get the numbers to take one, this was good in many ways. First it got ppl or guilds noticed and alliences working together. Players became known for leading, sadly there is none of this on WAR. Keep takes happen when you have the most ppl in game not through skill and careful planning.

I would really like to see the spawn points further away from the open rvr zones and maybe the zones made bigger to allow fg fights.
Gold bags should also be handed out to the top healer/damage dealer/damage taker and one other player for top roll - but you should only be allowed to win one gold bag for keep takes per tier.

 

[Flimgoblin]

From an Alb Pryd point of view - Your talking about a VERY small sub-set within the FG crowd, and from pre-NF too. Thats what gets on everyones tits ( those who liked to play in a FG) is ignorant people like yourself who just lump everyone who dared to be in a set grp into this "leet" catagory, with all the supposed nastiness that came with it.

From an Excal point of view he summed up almost every 8v8 guild/group on the server

OK to be fair it was generally the odd bad apple giving the lot of them a bad name - but I didn't see any efforts to weed these people out... "he's a cock but he mezzes really fast so we let him stay".

Anyway, back on topic - what's to be done about making it not just about the zerg? Some way to outflank/outmaneuvre and take objectives/win without having to fight up close.

Order fought on Karag Orrud like that last friday - was a massive destruction zerg but they just kept dancing around. They got slaughtered every time we got our warbands together but when we were separated (thanks to too little cohesion despite the efforts of some) they managed to take the BOs and even one of the keeps.

Don't think that'd ever let you take a zone though if you can outflank and get into a keep to defend you can kill double your numbers easy.

 

[Zede]

From an Excal point of view he summed up almost every 8v8 guild/group on the server

OK to be fair it was generally the odd bad apple giving the lot of them a bad name - but I didn't see any efforts to weed these people out... "he's a cock but he mezzes really fast so we let him stay".

Anyway, back on topic - what's to be done about making it not just about the zerg? Some way to outflank/outmaneuvre and take objectives/win without having to fight up close.

Order fought on Karag Orrud like that last friday - was a massive destruction zerg but they just kept dancing around. They got slaughtered every time we got our warbands together but when we were separated (thanks to too little cohesion despite the efforts of some) they managed to take the BOs and even one of the keeps.

Don't think that'd ever let you take a zone though if you can outflank and get into a keep to defend you can kill double your numbers easy.

Ive got a sneaky feeling WAR is gonna be guild vs guild, not grp vs grp. Having 20 in vent at the same time trying to take something should be a laugh

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

More like Alliance vs Alliance

 

[Xandax]

From an Alb Pryd point of view - Your talking about a VERY small sub-set within the FG crowd, and from pre-NF too. Thats what gets on everyones tits ( those who liked to play in a FG) is ignorant people like yourself who just lump everyone who dared to be in a set grp into this "leet" catagory, with all the supposed nastiness that came with it.

Your cliched attitude & the supposed mindset of people who ran in a set grp - really 99% of the those people had no attitude or "leetness" what so ever - I knew them all , I know what they were like - DID YOU ? or just clueless supposition as per fuckin usual. Oh sorry, was I being elitist just then ?

No - I knew none of Albion Prywden what so ever. But it was not like Albion on Prywden was the only server which ever existed and only realm which ever ran FGs. Now who's the ignorant or clueless.... you perhaps?

 

[MagrothJ]

From an Alb Pryd point of view - Your talking about a VERY small sub-set within the FG crowd, and from pre-NF too. Thats what gets on everyones tits ( those who liked to play in a FG) is ignorant people like yourself who just lump everyone who dared to be in a set grp into this "leet" catagory, with all the supposed nastiness that came with it.

Your cliched attitude & the supposed mindset of people who ran in a set grp - really 99% of the those people had no attitude or "leetness" what so ever - I knew them all , I know what they were like - DID YOU ? or just clueless supposition as per fuckin usual. Oh sorry, was I being elitist just then ?

Back in those days the people wanting to play in FG vs FG setups kind of forced their own playstyle on everyone else by stating that zerging was cowardice and things like that. I often ran solo so I could just as well have stated that FG setups was cowardice as well but I didn't. Every time there was a zerg there was whine to be had, even though that was basically the only way to survive the set FGs for many others.

Apart from ToA, DaoCs evolving into just FG vs FG setups was what killed it for me. I'm sure I wasn't alone. I really hope that's not where we are heading with this game. You shouldn't have to be in a permanent FG setup to just be able to survive for more than 5 minutes in RvR areas.

 

[Calaen]

I always played under the premise that if it moved and I felt like it I would hit it.

 

[Tallen]

I always played under the premise that if it moved and I felt like it I would hit it.

As did 99.9% of the population, although some definitely semed to suffer selective amnesia when it came to the forums

 

[klasa]

It really helped NOT to reed FH in order to enjoy DOAC, the whine threads really had an negative effect on my in game experience

 

[Chronictank]

Back in those days the people wanting to play in FG vs FG setups kind of forced their own playstyle on everyone else by stating that zerging was cowardice and things like that. I often ran solo so I could just as well have stated that FG setups was cowardice as well but I didn't. Every time there was a zerg there was whine to be had, even though that was basically the only way to survive the set FGs for many others.

Apart from ToA, DaoCs evolving into just FG vs FG setups was what killed it for me. I'm sure I wasn't alone. I really hope that's not where we are heading with this game. You shouldn't have to be in a permanent FG setup to just be able to survive for more than 5 minutes in RvR areas.

And people like yourself whined about the imaginary fg monopoly with no real grip on reality. HOW did they actually stop you doing anything? they didnt and couldnt regardless how much the vocal minority complained, the likes of Ardamel, Outlaw and co prooved this fact in the mile gate standoffs.
If they were abusive towards you, you report them and they get suspended

If you didn't want to get steamrolled you didnt go where the set grps ran, but ofc the people who did so didnt get noticed because they were happy playing rather than complaining. But the fact of the matter was that where the fg's were you were garunteed to find people to fight
Equally most full groups realised they could use IRC to coordinate zones for the day and moved accordingly, again didnt appear on the forums because they were happy playing (usually in hadrians) rather than complaining
The funny thing is, most of these people didnt even read FH past raid organisation

This completely ignoring the benefit of set grps, who do you think organised Dragon/TG raids back in the day?
Hell who do you think started the permanent lair grps helping an endless stream of people to level?
Or the large army events you liked, again organised grps..
What you fail to see is that these grps often were the core of bigger events when they werent in "fg vs fg" because they were better organised and easier to keep under control as they actually did what they were asked.

 

[Chronictank]

doh edit timer,

On topic i think defending keeps will become easier as people get used to the tactics, a handful of the right people can hold a fort against vastly superior numbers if they want to

What i do feel is missing though is arena's for the set grps to fight it out,
then there is no excuses of being "zerged" if they want to fight against set grps then they can everyone else can do open warfare/scenarios
Also there are no real penalty for dying, you just release and return
dry rince repeat
This is great for scenarios but it shouldnt be the case in real open rvr to be honest, take praag for example you can just throw yourself at the enemy again and again making it a pretty mundane affair

However regarding scenarios, it is simply impractical to do normal pve as you will miss out on the RR from pvp
There should be significant boosts to xp/drops in pve to make it worth doing

Truth be told i guess my post is a little bitter, this is the 3rd mmo where i got bored within the first month of subscription (age of conan and archlord being the others)

 

[Nate]

Theres vast amounts of areas for set groups to fight in, could go to a zone thats locked out.