How many balanced Ald FG's do you ever see?

[censi]

On hibernia most normal RVR grps get their bard warden druid back bone and build the grp up from that, so its balanced. And most FG's going out to RVR make sure they get these key classes.

Midguard seems the same with Healer, shammy, PBT rm.

I was wondering.. How many alb grps do you see with all their backbone classes (IE Cleric, PBT thurg, and Mid sorc)

Certainly you seem to have feck all mind sorcs out there but also an astonishing lack of clerics.

I have come up against good ablion grps b4 and it always the same few peeps.

I would suggest that as the game stands at the moment albion have all the tools necessary to compete with the other realms. The fact that you dont have the necessary amounts of key "backbone" grp classes is the reason you get slaughtered in RVR.

90% of your RVR grps are unbalanced (sometimes with no healers or CC) and therefore couldnt fight their way out of a paper bag. Yet you keep rambling on about this concept of being underpowered to the point where mythic go and change the game dynamics. (when these change werent actually needed)

Alb seriously needs some more clerics and mind sorcs.... Mythic can patch the game to pieces to try and help you but ultimately if you dont balance up your grps, dont expect to win.

Was just a discussion only team, nothing to heavy.

 

[rure]

umm.. you just found out this?

getting clerics and sorcs arent that easy... its a shortage of them in albion atm

 

[Aussie-]

Albs RvR when they want
Hibs RvR when their guild allows them.

btw you're talking about who? VGN/IG/CF/LA thats what?? 40-50hibs?
ever seen other hibs in Emain?

 

[censi]

yer but its just the underpowered rant that i cant understand...

albion have some of the best classes out there...

Theurgs are superb,
Friars are fecking deadly....
Mincers are gr8 auxilory mezzors (a mincers role should be to insta stun the hib bard b4 hib bard mezzes (this never happens)
Sorcs gr8 class.
Inf best stealther in game.
Armsmen solid tanks.
Wiz strong nukers etc
Clerics good.

like i say though you cant expect to win if you arnt balanced.

 

[-yoda-]

giff a char with insta stun or mezz and im sure there will be PLENTY of those classes rolled: ) untill we get insta cc "which aint gonna happen" alb will never have the tools "as you put it" compete on a reguler basis with mid/hib grps .

im sure if no insta cc was in game the rvr between all 3 realms would be much more fun . btw im not whining about alb lack off cc. im just stating thats what we lack , end of the day insta cc has a lot of say in fights .

 

[Nalle Puh]

Balanced alb group? well with th 5-6fg.s u always have i think 1fg makes up for another so why bother making 1 good fg when u can always trust for backup?

 

[Trubble]

To get more needed classes in rvr, make them more fun to play. And I think that is what is happening in next patch with sorc, theurg and cleric upgrades.

 

[old.FIN]

well if u r looking "backbone" of group...
and based on what u got/need on hibs/mids side...

albs side...backbone....

mincer...speed
friar...basebuffs
cleric...some spec/ heals
tgist...pbt
sorc...mezz


weee, 3 open spots to something, has to be btw tanks so where is those who make dmg????

 

[Tigerius]

Originally posted by censi
How many alb grps do you see with all their backbone classes

This really isn't news to anyone, is it? We have the number of necessary abilities spread across the largest number of classes, and the largest number of classes to choose from in the first place. To get the what could be considered minimum necessities for a succesful RvR group you need no less then 6 Alb classes, compared to 3 for Hibs and 4-5 for Mids depending on specs. Mids have the benefit of having significantly fewer classes here.

If you narrow the minimum necessary down to Sorc, Minstrel, Cleric, which I don't really agree with well then the main problem will be the Sorc. We do have a lack of Clerics (are you suprised after one of the heaviest nerfs bar archers?) but they are still a necessary PvE class and you can usually get 1 from somewhere. Sorc however isn't really a neccessary PvE class, it's not either a class that is very rewarding initially for an inexperienced player and it doesn't seem very rewarding for RvR Sorcs either due to a very high fatality. As much as I agree with the idea of not RvRing in an unbalanced group I really don't think it's a better idea sitting at atk for hours on end waiting for one, sadly you eventually get accustomed to the fact that a Mind Sorc is a luxury and the other times you have to take it from there. That being said I'm happy to wait 30mins, just not several hours with little hope in sight.

albion have some of the best classes out there...

Theurgs are superb,
Friars are fecking deadly....
Mincers are gr8 auxilory mezzors (a mincers role should be to insta stun the hib bard b4 hib bard mezzes (this never happens)
Sorcs gr8 class.
Inf best stealther in game.
Armsmen solid tanks.
Wiz strong nukers etc
Clerics good.

like i say though you cant expect to win if you arnt balanced.

Theurgs are one of Albs best RvR classes indeed, measure up to say RMs very well.
Friars are a strong solo class in buffed vs unbuffed, in RvR though they don't quite reach up to full tank status (nor should they ofc) in HPs/RAs and are quite unable to combine a healing role with a melee role. Not quite support, not quite melee. Not a superb grouping char but they do bring baseline buffs and resists so yep useful.
Minstrels have alot of abilities that don't combine, speed aside there is alot they can do in groups but nothing that exactly outmatches Bards. Bit too much jack-of-all-trades. (p.s. stun range is 750 and requires target)
Sorcs are good but not as primary CC, and it's as primary CC they have to try and die.
Infs really don't help group RvR much, invalid argument.
Armsmen may be "solid" but they are the crappiest of the maintanks, too unflexible, too obvious "tank" target due to plate, too low damage due to an almost forced hybrid spec.
Wiz is not in any way stronger nuker then say Chanter, and has less utility. Crap.
Clerics have a very short range stun instead of medium range root in comparison to Druids, maybe not much worse but without any form of self-defence they are still the weakest main healer.They were good before the nerf, now they have the same buffing/healing lines as everyone else and a crap 3rd line.

Albion as a realm isn't balanced though Censi, our groups can't be balanced, if you were to put together all the abilities you wanted from all the classes you would still end up with an unbalanced group as you simply would have every single class pick forced on you and no ability to add any edge or special thing. If a group consisted of 10 members then Albion would probably perform better, no not because we'd be able to zerg more but because we'd be able to fit the necessary classes AND something else.

Oh and any suggestions what to do with the unnecessary classes, you know the Blademasters and the like? We're currently grouping them in Albion, maybe this is stupid of us but we still like to think of them as our friends. Should we just boot em from guilds and ignore them? Would this be a good solution?

 

[exe]

Originally posted by old.FIN
well if u r looking "backbone" of group...
and based on what u got/need on hibs/mids side...

albs side...backbone....

mincer...speed
friar...basebuffs
cleric...some spec/ heals
tgist...pbt
sorc...mezz


weee, 3 open spots to something, has to be btw tanks so where is those who make dmg????

Bah... exc albs will always stay the same and will whine about their "underpowerness"... get ur head outa ur ass and take a look at pryd and Pbuck's grp Just a hint: alb caster based grp with sos and bof is DEADLY>_<

 

[- Fedaykin -]

give sorcs chain +con self buff

 

[Trinilim]

ok, avoiding the flame that appears to be starting in this thread..

We have hardly any clerics really, and that's our #1 problem above all else.

Mainly because being a healer cleric is excrutiatingly boring.

I'm not saying we have no clerics, that's not true, we do have quite a few, but hardly enough to say we're equal with hibs and mids (not a flame!).

We also have very few pbt theurgs, why? Well, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that mythic is doing it on purpose, but an earth theurg is about the worst possible class you can play for fun.

There is absolute 0 fun in going into a group, turning on speed if needed, buffing 5-7 squawking people with EB/haste, turning on pbt.

That's it, you're done.

You can't nuke, as it takes up too much power.

Pets cost 12% power and do crap all.

So basically, a pbt theurg does nothing, not making it a very fun class to play.

Sorcs.. well, to be honest, mind sorcs are nowhere near as fun to play as healers or bards (talking from experience here). Sure you get pets, and soon they get buffed up, but really, it's not much fun (in my own personal opinion, but many others agree with me, as there is a severe lack of sorcs).

Another problem we Albions encounter, is that we have the most classes of all the realms.

At first glance this seems like a good thing, "wow! variety!".

While we do have a great deal of variety, that's our problem, we can't possibly fit all the essentials in one group and have it be as efficient as hib and mid groups (not a flame!).

Feel free to correct me hibs, but a good group for you would consist of:
1 bard
1 druid
2 wardens
2 enchanters
2 Heros

With that you have the following:
Speed
4 healers (the 2 wardens being the very last resort)
Mez
3 second pbt
PLENTY of buffs
hard hitting nukes
hella-hard hitting pbaoe
2 melee damage dishers/takers

Ok, keeping that in mind, in order to match all that that one hib group has, an alb group would have to consist of the following:
Minstrel - speed/mez
2 clerics - 2 healers
Sorc - mez
2 Theurgs - 3 second pbt
Wizard - fire spec
Wizard - ice spec
armsman - melee damage taker/disher
2 friars - melee damage disher/healer
paladin - damage taker

As you can see, the alb group would require 12 people to get the full amount of abilities that the hib group does.

A lot of albs don't know how to deal with this (not all, but most), they don't know how to get their group to work at its optimum.

And as there's not a plentiful supply of primary classes we need (healers and mezzers specifically), groups would have to wait at atk for a VERY long time before they got everything (a short amount of time if they're lucky).

A lot of albs just don't have the patience to wait that long, so they fill up their group with what they can.

Variety and rarity of key classes is our downfall.

 

[Mavl]

Originally posted by exe
Bah... exc albs will always stay the same and will whine about their "underpowerness"... get ur head outa ur ass and take a look at pryd and Pbuck's grp Just a hint: alb caster based grp with sos and bof is DEADLY>_<

You mean this is deadly?
http://www.hot.ee/mavl3/screens/Nerf.jpg

I always found funny how ppl that never played in alb try to teach albs how to play their chars.


As a responce to censi:

Well, if one wants to play a good support class he will go make a healer on mid, or a bard on hib. If he wants to play on alb he could make a balanced friar for example. The trouble is all these classes promise a lot more fun than a cleric. These key classes(clerics, mind sorcs, earth theurgs) are just plain boring at present. Would you make a class that is boring for rvr ? Hopefully, with latest patches they will become more fun and more ppl will roll them. I doubt we'll soon see 6 sec pbt in alb tho.

How many mentalism mentalists do you see in hib? Why do you think no one plays them? Yes, because they are boring and promise little fun.

Remember, people play this game to enjoy it, and not to fix mistakes that developers did.

 

[- Fedaykin -]

The Problem with Sorcs (Being a Sorc myself)

I am 34 mind/41 body spec if i geta stone respeccing out of body cos its pretty gimped.

With a Full SC suit and THE best buffs in alb i have 1400 hps, i'm an avalonian which i curse myself for making every day, i wear cloth so those 1400 hps equate to 1-2 hits i can take (with an extra due to my self blade turn)

caster speed is handy, saved me a few times, but tbh i think this is the only reason i get in groups atm.

My aoe mezz is the 2nd best in the mind line, and it's resisted very little, but i find that theres no pointin using it. I have a screenshot somewhere (will try find and post) where i spammed aoe root tons of times on the mmg milegate door and caught a whole mid zerg in there, i quickly planted my aoe mezz over the top and had a mid zerg sleeping ZzZzZ ok a few purged, but generally it was advantage alb.

What happens? A stupid smegging cabalist plants aoe dot on them all, suddenly 20+ mids are free of their respective shackles, ok they are taking 140 damage a tick but thats no goignto kill them. I swear down every zerker in that zerg ran straight for me, and as usual i died first, no rps for my hard work and no rps for the caba who died shortly after. So the first fix for sorcs is

1. Destroy all cabalists.

My brother was playin my infiltrator, and was stealthing along with the alb zerg when it ran into the mid zerg. I said look a healer there go kill him, his reply, "no way, if i touch a healer every mid in sight will hit me" - a big problem considering the healer needs to be taken out first or if not first very quickly. Now the healer is mids CC class, one of the reasons he must be protected and the mids do a thoroughly good job of protecting him. Albs need to do the same with sorcs (who die lots faster than healers) but albion seems to lack the tools to do this. A mid zerker can drop a tank in 4-5 styles? (correct me) and the threat is removed from the healer, an alb tank candrop a zerker in 10 minutes? (correct me) so what can an alb tank do to protect the sorc..

2. All tanks get slam (and use it)

slam renders an enemy useless for the duraion of the stun, enough for the sorc to plant a mezz/root or just run out of danger. If you dont have slam you may as well just ignore the zerker who's on a sorc, he's not like a mob who you can taunt off him, the best defense for a sorc is his qc mezz, i get amazingly pissed off when a mid hits me and my qc mezz hits then a 2h paladin runs upto the zerker and hits him hoping that the zerker will ignore the sorc and turn round to engage to the paladin which ofc never happens.

Many times i don't get an invite to a group even when i ask, but people /send me saying "mezz first, fight later" well i think bollocks to that, mezzing doesnt give any rps and plants a big >>>>ATTACK ME<<<< sign on my back.

3. if you want a sorc to mezz make sure he's in a group

This is my biggest annoyance, sometimes i can't get access to my 2nd computer so can't rely on a bot for buffs. The group cleric ignores me, givin spec con to tanks before me.. IMO it should be te other wau round, sorcs NEED buffs a lot more than other classes, w/o buffs i have 1000 hp.. not enough, at least give us a chance to survive, give base CON, STR/CON, base dex, Spec dex and INT as a luxury -

4. Correct Buffing from clerics

would help sorcs if these suggestions were put to use

anyway, my 2 cents
Fedaykin - Sorcerer Primus

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by censi
Mincers are gr8 auxilory mezzors (a mincers role should be to insta stun the hib bard b4 hib bard mezzes (this never happens)

just thought I'd touch base on this, stun is 700 range.

Kinda explains it'self

 

[saks_]

Some of the next patches Sorc will be all over! Bolt range mezz! castable power regen!

 

[Jiggs]

in guild groups i have been in our main problem is _always_ no reallly active sorcerers, tbh we have great clerics and minstrel etc~ but always the big problem no sorcs

i mean in all albion there is really only like 3-4 people who actually play sorcerer well, its kind of depressing

 

[brommix]

I actually feel that the right alb groups have become alot closer to hib and mid groups than before...problem is as stated earlier, still to make balanced groups, as it is now it seems its very rare you get the one perfect group, my reasoning is that each realm got its fair share of powergamers, they will level several lvl50s and if realm needs they will make a support class but for all those who play abit more casual its an advantage for the realms with lesser classes since they will have a bigger chance to stumble upon a support class and chose it by accidence. Also I do believe that bards and healers are generally more powerfull and more fun to play compared to clerics and sorcs in general this means that i believe that hib and mids will have easier access to bards and healers than the albs to the same type of classes. Only way to come around this stuff is to organize in bigger guilds and do rvr in 2fg instead of 1fg, you will have what you need in 2fgs alot more, by sheer chance, but you will be encouraging "zerging" by doing it.
A random sorc joining a random group is sure to die very fast, communication not up to its best people dont know each other etc etc, know that is offcourse equal to what mids and hibs face only difference is that the main CCers in mid and hib can protect themselves ALOT better than the sorcs, both got instant CC..bard can get ip, have heals and end chant, healer instant CC instant heals chain armour. So the mid hib groups will buy time and that can make the more random groups survive alot longer in general. All groups who can buy time in fights will make better descisions in the long run, the faster the descision making the greater chance for errors. To me that has the implication that alot of alb groups have to set out to do rvr without any main form of CC, they will have mincer CC maybe or a theurgist CC, these groups are doomed each time they dont get the jump on a hib or mid group...IF they get the jump its usually still only a 50/50 chance you get out on the winning side, so after a number of times getting ganked this sometimes lead to zergstyle warfare. There are offcourse other times where the reasons for zergs are totally different, where people just choose to fight in zergs, and when other realms come out in 2 or 3fgs all the time your own realm will have to adept to that and counter it with a small zerg as well.

So to answer Censi`s question... I pretty much only see complete albion groups from First Cohort, Black Falcons, Strife, HB (and we usually move in numbers abit bigger than 1fg) Gol seem to mount complete group but have help from outer guildies...zoyster outlaw pitonisa riell i know group alot...from 3 different guilds, Ive seen Brethren mount complete guild groups, thats pretty much it.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by censi


Alb seriously needs some more clerics and mind sorcs.... Mythic can patch the game to pieces to try and help you but ultimately if you dont balance up your grps, dont expect to win.

Fair post. However, in my opinion you miss the point. DAOC is a form of entertainment that people pay to play like any other - whether it be playing a sport, going to the cinema, watching a band etc. There is a reason people have historically chosen classes other than clerics and mind sorcs - they simply found other classes more fun to play. Over time this created the imbalance, which mythic is slowly trying to correct. It's no surprise that with 1.60 coming out we will get more mind sorcs - people will find they are getting more satisfaction for their pound (or euro ). People will always play the classes they find more fun - that is ultimately what they pay their money for. Also, there has been an issue about the necessary skills available on a class - I don't think anyone would deny that a healer or druid has more accessible skills in their character than say a cleric . Perhaps not as significant as some would claim, but it's there all the same.

So it definitely needed some action by mythic - simply saying people SHOULD roll clerics or sorcs when they haven't found them satisfying to play isn't the answer. Hopefully with some of the changes gradually being made a more natural balance in the realms will be found.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by - Fedaykin -
1. Destroy all cabalists.

I lub you too. "Destroy all bad players" is more like it.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by brommix
I pretty much only see complete albion groups from First Cohort, Black Falcons, Strife, HB (and we usually move in numbers abit bigger than 1fg) Gol seem to mount complete group but have help from outer guildies...zoyster outlaw pitonisa riell i know group alot...from 3 different guilds, Ive seen Brethren mount complete guild groups, thats pretty much it.

Very unfair. SS moves in 1-2 fgs on just about every night. Mostly in Odin's, however.

 

[censi]

feck me nice to see this one didnt turn into a flame fest... some good comments.

 

[dakeyras]

Game launch: Mid>Alb>Hib

After 3 months: Alb>Mid>Hib

After 6 months: Hib>Mid>Alb

After 12 months: Mid>Hib>Alb

In 3 months time I fully expect to be reading about how overpowered Albion is in RvR.

It is the way of this genre...and will never change.

 

[brommix]

well cerdin i havent been to odins for a month now so that explains..also its only what i see! so offcourse there are other guilds who make good guild groups

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by brommix
well cerdin i havent been to odins for a month now so that explains..also its only what i see! so offcourse there are other guilds who make good guild groups

True. We actually had some nice teamwork with HB in Odin's some weeks ago, but you weren't there (we even got a flame thread on BW for it! ).

Oh, and as for Censi, we ran into your FG a few times last afternoon in Odin's... We were far from balanced, indeed, mostly because most of our guildies usually log on later during the evening. We got our asses handed to us, but we also won a few times. And I managed to nearsight the bard every single time even tho I got ganked by 5 Hibs the second after that.

 

[Sharp Thing]

Originally posted by Tigerius

Wiz is not in any way stronger nuker then say Chanter, and has less utility. Crap.

hahahahahahahaha, less utility, HAH

 

[temoedjin]

Well i made a sorceror going full support, just hope my guildies will protect me

 

[censi]

After 12 months: Mid>Hib>Alb

I dont agree.

the difference between realms is so negligable that landing the first mezz and availability of RA's will be the deciding factor.

Thats Hibs V mids btw...

But like I was saying, its so common to come up against albs without backbone classes... With no PBT ALb mages go down fast etc... with no mezz they get 8 enemies all doing there thing.

 

[Ambulance]

I must be mad then i find my cleric VERY good to play. I must admit though our third line (smite) may aswell be non-existant atm for me. Im not going to go on about it being weak/nerfed etc etc but the main reason is we are ALBs primary healer and this leaves us in the position of being expected to heal and nothing else. Although a cleric may seem boring in PvE, in RvR its a whole different experiance and imo the healer is one of the only things apart from CC that stops the group from becoming part of the patchwork quilt of dead ALBs scattered across emain/odins.

I am trying to level a sorc at this time and to be honest until next patch with crack, i find it hard to get group invites and spend half my time solo, because people dont know about or need the skills a sorc brings to a group. All a sorc equals to an low level ALB groups atm is CC and if the group is doing ok without it, why should they take another character which in there opinion brings nothing to the group. How many times as a sorc have you had someone say in a low level group "great debuff" or "oo nice dot m8"? At higher levels a sorc will become more of a asset to an ALB group due to the places we xp in, but to get there unless you have a good PvE guild, we are doomed to the mind numbing boredom of soloing 90% of the time.

Another factor which i think has spoiled albs chances of more support classes is the BG`s. i dont think it should be even regarded as a practice ground for RvR as it doesnt even come close. Random groups with RP horny people who are still learning their class and solo egocentric whores, who will run and hit anything in any direction to get that vital 1rp. BGs also introduces people to the infamous "HEAL FFS!!, REZ ME FFS!!, MEZZ !!" etc etc, which if this is there first taste of experiencing thier support class in RvR may be a big turn off for them.

The BGs should be there for fun and not taken serious at all imo, also BG1 is extremely addictive and its so much easier just to level to 24 and become elite in as many classes as you want, instead of having to crawl along the lvl 50 xp hell. The BGs are becoming another part of this game completely, check out the Battle ground discussions section of BW and you will see they practically have there own little world of lvl 24`s.

As to Theurgs and PBT, we have quite a few atm but as the trend is to go high air for the nuke/mezz, we dont have many Theurgs in ALB who will sacrifice thier damage output for 6 sec PBT. making more earth spec Theurgs is a little double edged though, as without any air theurgs i think ALB would be even more gimped, because of the lack of sorc, most of the time we rely on the Theurgs mezz to be main CC.

Anyway rambled enough and that was my 2c, hopefully with the future changes to ALB in 1.60 we will have more CC and healing.

 

[optical-]

Originally posted by censi
classes.
Midguard seems the same with Healer, shammy, PBT rm.

Wrong. A balanced mid group needs shaman, runie, pac healer, aug/mend healer and a skald. (rest zerkers)
Like you said hib needs 3 classes to get all these abilities, so you'll rarely see a mid group like this because there are no aug/mend healers around which means we dont get the 6 resists like hibs. The only people i commonly see with these 5 classes in 1 group are NP, which is 1 of the reasons they can kill any 1fg they meet.
imo its bs that people think its easy to get a balanced mid group, because its not. Hib on the other hand is totally different but mythic is still gonna buff em up.