Heretics in full group RvR

[kirennia]

Okay, this is my main problem in game so I want to start a reasoned discussion about heretics in full group RvR. Ever since I started playing my heretic, there has been one main problem which I have faced and it isn't anything to do with class balance as far as I can see. It's the lack of groups for the class, plain and simple.

I'm simply wondering why FLEX tics do not get groups. This isn't about rej tics, if you want to start another thread about that, fine...just don't make this thread go off on a tangent please.


I'd like to start off by clearing up a lot of misconceptions about the class.

1) We wear cloth but we DONT HAVE CASTER AF. Too many times I've had discussions with people who seem to think that heretics are cloth users, therefore we die easily but this is WRONG. We have the AF of a plate user and ABS in between chain and plate.

2) With equal RAs, a heretic will hit for a little over a reavers damage with our levi/indigo. We don't have a crap version of this and it isn't amazingly hard to pull off as some seem to think...

3) Flex heretics still have the ae snare. The difference is that we spam it whereas a rej tic wont. They will focus but the maths follows that a spammed low level version of it will stick as often as a focused version.

4) Heretics get access to banelord. Again, such a simple point that some people don't seem to realise. For the purpose of interupts, a heretics banelord does the exact same as everyonelses (shock/horror).


Think that's most of the points about a heretic that annoy me when people start a silly conversation about without knowing the facts.


So what is a flextics role in a group you ask? Well it all comes down to the situation as it does with every class. We aren't stuck to the MA in a group all the time although it is sometimes called for; from my perspective, we are a support tank.

With banelord, MoC ae snare (works on det tanks too if you decide to go defensive for the group), 2x instant interupts (although insta snare is bugged so you can spam it til it lands, meaning more interupts), long range style, we can work well as an interupter. With levi we can join the assist train. With the moc ae snare thing again, we can stop an MA train on their way to your groups caster.

Where a reaver is blessed with offensive RAs, a heretic is blessed with more defensive ones. PR, DI, BaoD, MoC just to name a few. And of course the heretics rr5 ability (75%magic resist boost for the group for 45 seconds but it doesn't effect list cloth casters).


The only group in albion which I have seen to try a heretic REGULARLY (apart from pugs and my late night ones) is 'Boys don't cry' where they recently took on vodkafairys' heretic and as far as I've seen, they do well. Heretanks are also rife on other servers. I'd like to hear feedback from people who both agree and disagree but I don't wanna start a flame war I'm just curious as to why the cluster hasn't caught on yet.....Looking forward to reading the replies

 

[Kerith]

powerlevel mine plz kirennia then i can see what they're like for myself !

 

[Kerith]

On a more serious note ive always been quite a firm believer in a tics abilities, but ive just always heard that in practice they aren't as good as on paper. I think he success of a tic in grp GREATLY depends on the setup, now with boys dont cry they're pretty much full caster grp, the tic is a solo banelord and that is why it works so well, u dont expect a solo BL to do much dmg particularly, its just an interupt bot. if u have a more balanced grp with say 2 banelords, you are going to be lookin for some heavier melee dmg, and thus probably a mercenary, tho having not tried tics in a tank grp i can't rly say for sure.

 

[kirennia]

heard

This is another of heretics problems sadly Up until recently (on excal anyway, don't know about prydwen), I was the only rr5+ heretank so albions opinions had already been set because of the rej tics on the server for FG fights. A lot more heretanks are coming out now (arwenmyr/haxen i think/solei to name a few) so maybe things will change soon...

 

[Kerith]

This is another of heretics problems sadly

what is ?

 

[danmrman]

I believe that heretics are a great class, they have a nice dmg output potential, also with insta interupts and back up heals.

Think they need to be tried out

 

[kirennia]

what is ?

A lot of hear say. People have heard they're bad etc but not been able to try them properly in a group for a while.

Was discussing this problem a while ago with a couple of guildies and I think it was train who said 'The problem is that when the class first came out, people grouped with the fresh level 50 rej tics who were still just learning their class and based their opinions on that'.

Around the time catacombs was first released, VN boards were filled with a lot of negative feedback about heretics (flextics weren't properly discovered over there at that time yet) which was why there wasn't a huge influx of people wanting to roll them (compare it to vamps/warlocks for example). I only made mine level 50 for a laugh then thought I'd try a melee spec as I'd never had a melee class before and absolutely loved it.

 

[Golena]

The main reason heretics don't get groups is that someone once heard they sucked.
A tic that knows how to play their class can be devestating. I guess it all comes down to the fact that in alb groups fitting all the needed must have utility in leaves very few spaces, and the classes that are competing for all those spaces also bring alot to the table. The other classes tend to have more obvious advantages to the heretic at first glance so they get picked first.

 

[Morphius]

Hbrid setup

CLeric
CLeric
Sorc
Sorc/Merc ( switchable for the main opoosition on the day)
Caba
Friar
Tic
Merc

 

[Tilda]

Hbrid setup

CLeric
CLeric
Sorc
Sorc/Merc ( switchable for the main opoosition on the day)
Caba
Friar
Tic
Merc

tbh you need a theurg in that setup.
I'd say in that group, your best bet is to take a reaver/2nd tic/2nd theurg/grapplepally over the merc. Then you'll win the interupts and cabby/sorc team can kill.

 

[Zede]

We run a rejuv/enh tic in set grp when ever we can now.

Snare and new "disguised" monster res is ace

But...rather take a reaver than a melee tic.

 

[kirennia]

We run a rejuv/enh tic in set grp when ever we can now.

Snare and new "disguised" monster res is ace

But...rather take a reaver than a melee tic.

This is what I don't get. Don't get me wrong bud, I know reavers have their fair share of groupable factors, but personally I don't know what the comparison comes down to.

If you're talking about an offensive reaver, they have almost no patch on a heretank. TWF/rr5 and bomb is nice but compared to heretics rr5 (and the fact that they have the ml8 banelord too), the only thing a reaver would have over the heretic is their bomb. Compared to DI, PR, BAoD, MoC ae snare, better damage, a LOT better defence, I really don't see the point.

The only way a reaver will better a heretank is if they have bodyguard yet a heretank will still have their own way of dealing with tanks; as well as being able to go offensive against an enemy caster group better then a reaver ever could.

Although my posts so far have sounded kinda aggresive, please list what a reaver can do over a heretank. I promise an openminded responce.

 

[Jeriraa]

I'm a mid but I have rolled a flextic on the classic server cause I saw exactly the same potential as you see. (With the added bonus of extra buffs.)

I gave up on it cause of the crap people were giving me each time I said: "I'm a tank. Don't expect me to heal!"

They didnt boot me out of the exp groups (mostly cause I was tanking very well even in my shitty green con rog armor and also healed whenever nessecary) but I always had to go throu the same arguments in pm's and it pissed me off. So at the moment I am just sticking to playing my Shaman. I would really love to play a utility tank in RvR and have rolled a Valkyrie because of that but people are just too stubborn to see the potential of those classes and like you said dont make groups that allow them to play out this potential.

 

[kirennia]

This is EXACTLY albions problem. No offence to those of albion who group me and other of albions heretanks but the majority are too ignorant to even try a heretic purely because VN boards said rej tics weren't so good.

It's sad that albions best support tank (from my experience) is left out purely down to here say

Even our enemies say heretics are a force to be reckoned with; why the hell has albion not cottoned on to their potential yet?

 

[Vodkafairy]

everyone knows a tank with better defence, insta unbreakable snare, zoarkat, egg, rez, ae snare, pr, di, baod, rr5 ra sucks compared to a reaver. xD

tic shines as third tank in a group, with the friar endbuff a paladin is even more obsolete the it already was, and a tic can fill up that spot better then anything.

cleric
cleric
friar
sorc
caba/theurg
merc
merc
heretic

either that, or the spot mercs (or any lighttank) normally take in magegroups - pure interrupt.

i dont believe in defensive heretics aesnaring tanktrain, healing and trying to do damage with pulses and so on. it just doesn't work well, but they shine in other areas

 

[>.< Pooned]

Cause most of heretics r crap/gimp/annoying/aoeleechers/demezzers they got a bad rumour in general

imo kirennia we miss ur cleric

stop that half healing class

 

[kirennia]

Cause most of heretics r crap/gimp/annoying/aoeleechers/demezzers they got a bad rumour in general

imo kirennia we miss ur cleric

stop that half healing class

Ignoring your second/third lines, I agree But only because it's such an abstract class to play. As I said earlier, there are only 4 or 5 heretanks playing in albion, that's why there are so few to compare against.

As for my cleric, It's avalonian and dead

 

[>.< Pooned]

Even our enemies say heretics are a force to be reckoned with; why the hell has albion not cottoned on to their potential yet?

Hmmm maybe cause mids/hibs refairing to the zerg tics that using monster rezz? thats nothing to do with group setup and fg vs fg really just an overpowered ability that still in fg is nothing cause u cant do anything else in that form cast/melle styles etc either RA like (ip twf static tempest etc)

 

[kirennia]

Hmmm maybe cause mids/hibs refairing to the zerg tics that using monster rezz? thats nothing to do with group setup and fg vs fg really just an overpowered ability that still in fg is nothing cause u cant do anything else in that form cast/melle styles etc either RA like (ip twf static tempest etc)

Sorry to single you out mate, but that is a discussion about rej tics. This is a discussion about heretanks. Either talk about that or please start another thread

 

[>.< Pooned]

ok heretanks then a class with flexible styles and if u spec buffs u got a nice abs also but.... how many run through to catch a leviathan style?

i mean classes that catch easier stun r preferable to groups merc 2 style stun

paladin/reaver/arms s/s slam none opening

heretic got some nice ra like boad his rr5 and di but..... there r classes that can cap this gap so its really not worth and tbh most of peeps respect u and not the class u r playing i guess that u undestand that, and i believe that this is the reason u make this post

 

[Jeriraa]

Gotta admit a reaver will have 45 more str than a heretic due to str being its the primary attribute. You dont have to forget thou that flex is based 50/50 on dex and str and therefore the impact this makes is only half as big as it seems at first.

Other than that a flextic has superior AF/Absorb, better utility spells (more ranged interrupts) and access to a good bunch of very handy active RA's (DI, PR, BAoD as mentioned already) and passives aswell. (Do you know tank that can get physical defense ontop of >700AF and 30% absorb?) He also can become a Banelord too. (Something Midgards utility tanks lack.)

The only real drawback I see is that he can not get deterimation.

And ofc the damage output of a reaver compared to a flextic will probably be somewhat higher simply due to the fact that the reaver is more likely to go for damage augmenting ra's (what else can he do?) than a heretic that can get chose to get RA's that benefit the group as a whole instead of just hitting for 50 more a swing.

 

[kirennia]

ok heretanks then a class with flexible styles and if u spec buffs u got a nice abs also but.... how many run through to catch a leviathan style?

i mean classes that catch easier stun r preferable to groups merc 2 style stun

paladin/reaver/arms s/s slam none opening

heretic got some nice ra like boad his rr5 and di but..... there r classes that can cap this gap so its really not worth and tbh most of peeps respect u and not the class u r playing i guess that u undestand that, and i believe that this is the reason u make this post

Tics have a back style stun. Those who spec for it (whilst being flextics) can also have 2nd in chain stun if they want a sort of anytime

You say pallies have anytime slam but what good is a pally in offensive compared to a tic? If you're talking about a defensive pally then you're talking about a different issue because tics aren't bodyguarders, just as mercs aren't.

I already said what tics get in comparison to reavers, you need to say specifically what a reaver has over a heretank rather then to say 'they're better, fullstop'.

Arms in s/s will have nowhere near as many interupts ..... Though their individual RAs are good, what do they have over a tic for FG rvr?

You say tics have RAs which other classes can better.......give examples ffs.

And I agree that to a degree people will respect the player, not the class but that still wont help people who aren't well known.

 

[Tilda]

I personally do think tics are a nice class, and should be grouped more. But you're dismissing reavers out of hand like they suck.

Jeriraa, you say tics have better range interupts, but you're forgetting/ignoring that reavers have 2 insta interupts (that can be casted while running no less! ) and pbaoe interupt aura. While you have to be in pbaoe range for it to function, this is almost (ok not quite as good, i'll grant you aoe dd snare is nice) as good as tics.
Thr 45 str point is pointless because you'd need to compare what attribute dex is as well, and tbh I dont know and cba to find out if reaver/tic dex is same or not.

Whoever said about tics not getting a decent stun, they have viper, and while it may not be much use against a caster, its enough for vs tanks and you can now (more than ever) get off full block chain ending in LT of doom However this is the same for reavers, although they are probably more likley to be speccing for slam.

I'm not sure the RAs have much in it, reaver needs twf3, tic needs pr1, di2, baod1 or something. Reavers are wanted for twf, not just for mob, but for interupts, pet killing, tank kiting and generally to create space for caster grps.

I'm not dismissing tics, just trying to convey a ballanced perspectives of the ticvreaver debate.

 

[Jeriraa]

heretic got some nice ra like boad his rr5 and di but..... there r classes that can cap this gap

This isnt about capping a gap. We're talking about an EXTRA DI in the group. Thats 2-3k hps more for the enemy to hack throu before your group starts taking damage or you can use it as an insta heal.

Then BAoD... it only works aslong as the person who fired it is alive. Who has better survivability, a caster or a tank?

The rr5.. hell, I wish my healer had it instead of that silly selfrezz. Being able to shield this massive amount of magic damage from your support is not to be underestimated. Not with the general tendency to run hybrid or even pure caster groups.

 

[kirennia]

Gotta admit a reaver will have 45 more str than a heretic due to str being its the primary attribute. You dont have to forget thou that flex is based 50/50 on dex and str and therefore the impact this makes is only half as big as it seems at first.

Other than that a flextic has superior AF/Absorb, better utility spells (more ranged interrupts) and access to a good bunch of very handy active RA's (DI, PR, BAoD as mentioned already) and passives aswell. (Do you know tank that can get physical defense ontop of >700AF and 30% absorb?) He also can become a Banelord too. (Something Midgards utility tanks lack.)

The only real drawback I see is that he can not get deterimation.

And ofc the damage output of a reaver compared to a flextic will probably be somewhat higher simply due to the fact that the reaver is more likely to go for damage augmenting ra's (what else can he do?) than a heretic that can get chose to get RA's that benefit the group as a whole instead of just hitting for 50 more a swing.

I have 924AF, 1016 with my champion weapon mate (compared to a reavers 770 ish?). I agree that reavers will have more weaponskill (i think they get 25 more strength?) but that is a tradeoff for heretics passive 10% spell piercing. The piercing will equal more overall damage then a reaver still though.

A reaver going for damage RAs will have the exact same problems as a heretank, in that they haven't gone for their group specced RAs and thus will be forced out of a group. TWF3/det are not free, as are not the heretic RAs. For the essentials, both classes need around the same realm rank, the rest are just bonuses. It's more down to what the classes have access to rather then what everything costs. Soloing is a different discussion.

 

[>.< Pooned]

reaver BOMB=banelord+rr5+TWF3 = death inc

pally = 1.83 celerity to alb tank groups huuuray less space for other setups since celerity is something that albs never had and now they get it

RA= rr5 reaver aoe lifedrain helps in the mix of the terrorist bomb as i mention before

rr5 pally even if they dont love it it is a great help for groups 100 or more hp increase heal with their healchant

pally got something with heal group related also dont remember which....

gennerally tic is hard to play hard to put in a setup that rox and gennerally hard..... (hardmode) as all say take an example haxen ^^ well he is very good solo dunno how good could he be on a group but do u think that there isnt anything better?

 

[Vodkafairy]

arms has stoicism + det and that does make a huge difference, aswell as very high realiable damage. next to that, both 2h and pole styles rock, warguard has nice abilities and the pbae purge thing most likely has its uses too.

they are totally different classes. if you want some raw dps and great utility styles (snare, stun) you get an arms on the assist spot + warlord abilities that are quite nice. better to hit for 400 anytime then do a 100-200 + 200-300 levi that you can only use from the back.

tic is a utility tank, kinda like a champ, vamp and thane (maybe valkyrie too), but with way more toys and a bit less reliable dps.

paladins are completely obsolete. 25% end redux buff from friar + endpots + lw1-2 = more end then you will ever need in a fight. friar is just fine for bg. celerity is only nice on 2handers. an arms with celerity will do a bit more dmg then a 2nd merc, but overall group setups without pala are much better. imo.

reavers can bomb, yeah, but if you meet a group that is so stacked you will hit more then 1-2 people with it, then you will kill them even if you have a lvl 7 scout as main assist.

 

[kirennia]

By the way, I don't think reavers suck; I think they can be very good in a group. I'm just trying to clear up some misconceptions about the reaver/tic debate. Personally I don't think the 2 classes should be compared at all as they both fill very different rolls in a group but as some bring it up, I can't help but defend it.

It's like comparing mercs to minstrels because they both have access to slash

 

[Jeriraa]

Yes Tilda I know that. One is only 1k range thou. And like you said pbae only works when you run into them. That means if you interrupt by meleeing your pbae is useless.

I dont want to say Reavers are shit either. I have admitted their advantages: determination and higher melee dps namely. Its rather the other way around. People who say Heretics are outright shit should get their facts straight 1st and maybe use their brain a litte instead of just repeating what they heard or read somewhere else.

 

[Jeriraa]

reaver BOMB=banelord+rr5+TWF3 = death inc

To lowbie pugs maybe... anygroup with 2 halfdecent healer classes that dies to a reaver bomb deserves to be /laugh spammed till they release.
And afaik Agony transmission got nerfed. (Cant remember if they changed the damage percentage or put it on a common resist but something happened to it since the old days of reaver bombs.)

In our group we usaly pre-heal so we hardly ever notice your so called reaver bomb.