Fao - The Biased, So Called "elite" On Excal
- Thread starter Divinia
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Gordonax
Fledgling Freddie
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Aeicaan said:
Simple. For some reason you seem to think that I was claiming that one realm or another was easy mode. I wasn't. I was saying that some people like to play so-called gimped characters because they are more of a challenge to play.
Or do you mean "what?" in the sense that you can't that someone wouldn't go emain to RvR?
Aeicaan said:
Well, I'm not going to say anything about RR as I don't know any of them, but you're not exactly showing much evidence of intelligence.
Aeicaan said:
How about Filips plays the game to enjoy it instead of trying to prove how big his eee-peeen is?
I don't think casual players like zergs they like having a chance and said fully opted grps with artis out the "yin yang" are by far too strong so casual players in general "yes i am generalising" have to go out in larger groups to beat them so really do casual players like zergs and the largest of the large fights or would they prefer fg vs fg if they were able to match the fully opted groups. I would imagine they would prefer the fg vs fg but the chances are unless they devote alot of time they probably do not have thats not a possibilty ergo Losing is not fun winning is, if you can not stand a chance winning with 1fg go in a larger group so you can win. Thats just my take on it. 
Aeicaan
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have i said i am "elite"? do i pretend to be "elite"? no im just disagreeing with gordonax and i guess i have the right to do that
and yes who doesnt play the game to enjoy it? i dont think ppl play it because its boring or Just to farm rps.. if you still play it you hopefully still enjoy it.. and if you have enjoyed a game for a long time you will hopefully get better at the game/his char as with every other game out there..
and for the gimped char i dont think i fall into the easymode category.. and ill withdraw my comment on gimps chars (not counting eq) theres only gimped specs and not counting who gets in to groups or not..
and yes who doesnt play the game to enjoy it? i dont think ppl play it because its boring or Just to farm rps.. if you still play it you hopefully still enjoy it.. and if you have enjoyed a game for a long time you will hopefully get better at the game/his char as with every other game out there..
and for the gimped char i dont think i fall into the easymode category.. and ill withdraw my comment on gimps chars (not counting eq) theres only gimped specs and not counting who gets in to groups or not..
raid
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I don't consider myself "elite" at all but still fg v fg RvR is the only thing in daoc I havent got bored of in a couple of weeks/months. Realmpoints are of course only measure of time spent RvR'ing but still this "skill" factor exists and plays a really big role in fights. Mostly its about playing good as a team which includes much more than just pressing the style or spell button as individual player. Luck is only a minor factor - if talking about more or less fixed groups with same players - some groups you always lose to, some you always beat, some are always a "good fight". Fighting enemy groups who are "on the same level" can be really fun and rewarding.
This is assuming that the challenge is to just "beat others". Due to the way game favors numbers, best and most efficient way to beat enemies is just to outnumber them. Sure someone may find building bigger zerg than the enemy has a challenge... but in the end it will go down to the realm population and its something one cant control. Thus people try to find different challenges.
The original poster seems to find the challenge from winning with a "gimp" setup which can no doubt be fun and really challenging but also, to have any chance, you have to always play significantly better than the enemy group which is using "fotm" setup. Winning in such scenario may be rewarding but most people do not like losing to a group which plays worse than your group just because their setup is more effective than yours.
I believe most of the fg v fg people see making the most effective 8man group of the available classes/players the actual challenge instead. Only very few groups are able to "beat" this challenge (ie. be good enough to beat practically every other group every time) - so far only NP and DH have done this on exc, some others come close tho IMO. As I see it, only on this "NP/DH level" the realm imbalance or luck becomes the factors which usually decide who wins.
Divinia said:
This is assuming that the challenge is to just "beat others". Due to the way game favors numbers, best and most efficient way to beat enemies is just to outnumber them. Sure someone may find building bigger zerg than the enemy has a challenge... but in the end it will go down to the realm population and its something one cant control. Thus people try to find different challenges.
The original poster seems to find the challenge from winning with a "gimp" setup which can no doubt be fun and really challenging but also, to have any chance, you have to always play significantly better than the enemy group which is using "fotm" setup. Winning in such scenario may be rewarding but most people do not like losing to a group which plays worse than your group just because their setup is more effective than yours.
I believe most of the fg v fg people see making the most effective 8man group of the available classes/players the actual challenge instead. Only very few groups are able to "beat" this challenge (ie. be good enough to beat practically every other group every time) - so far only NP and DH have done this on exc, some others come close tho IMO. As I see it, only on this "NP/DH level" the realm imbalance or luck becomes the factors which usually decide who wins.
vintervargen
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as for stealther - group rvr
1. how many people have played both types of rvr seriously and still have their stealther as main char?
2. how much harder (coordination, paying attention etc) does it become to play a stealther in a duo instead of solo? now imagine playing in a FG stealthers meeting other FGs.
'elitists' are in daoc for the rvr action, not for the community or chatting with people. the tactics used in counter-strike and other fps games are in daoc group setups and specs; you examine your enemies and build your group around them, much like having different tactics in fps games depeding in the guilds/clans you meet.
in fps games, on public servers, the new players learn tricks and aim by playing with better and more experienced players. in daoc, the situation isnt really the same as you cannot spectate eachother. players with the same experience have the most fun when meeting other as experienced (and dedicated) enemies (and in daoc theres the equipment issue as well), it's kinda obvious really.
would casual players have more fun without powergamers in the scene? of course, even tho there's always some that are better then others. but since this issue cannot be solved when both parts are attracted to the same game, what to do?
if we imagine _everyone_ would go in the FG standard set by mythic (aka 8 people groups), high RR people could get some sort of handicap, maybe reduced castspeed, melee speed, and similar. that would help to ensure balance between FGs in rvr. but if RR is such an advantage, it should be removed completely right? and equipment should follow the same rules, the higher RR the person are (thus more elite) the less bonuses they should give?
but.. these things are a part of the reward system.. rvr much (pay your subs) and you get RPs, pve much and you get good items. so this cannot be removed completely.
hmm, what about these setups then.. if we add 'fun' classes to the groups, like thanes, champs, friars etcetera, would it be better? well, the group would get more utility, and less dmg output. so yeah, that would mean longer fights, and more fun for both parts.
so that is it then? serious rvr guilds form their group with more 'gimped' characters so they still can enjoy fights versus casual games, right? but... 99% of the casual gamers think of daoc as Realm vs Realm, and attacks enemies on sight. most of these still gets a thrill everytime the say an enemy.. and maybe even gets exited when they can try out their spells on different targets to see what happens. so if two of these casual-gamer-groups (note! these groups still have non-gimped classes) fights one rvr-guild-group at the same time (unintentionally) they will win, mostly due to interrupts. and the rvr guild will feel 'fuck that adding shit, lets grp savages/enchanters/cabalists so we can handle adds". the only solution i can see is that casual gamers that want to rvr, can make a group, and if they notice that high rr/elite groups are out, they go 2fg together next run. or 3. or 4. or whatever until they can have a fair chance of success. as it is now, and pisses off most of us rvr dedicated people, is that if a group of casual players dies, they wont come back with 2 groups.. its 7fg at once, camping amg.
enough of my thoughts anyway, they will probably be flamed to hell (note that the above example is only casual gamers vs hardcore gamers, the competition between rvr guilds that leads to 'perfect setups' is another issue).
1. how many people have played both types of rvr seriously and still have their stealther as main char?
2. how much harder (coordination, paying attention etc) does it become to play a stealther in a duo instead of solo? now imagine playing in a FG stealthers meeting other FGs.
'elitists' are in daoc for the rvr action, not for the community or chatting with people. the tactics used in counter-strike and other fps games are in daoc group setups and specs; you examine your enemies and build your group around them, much like having different tactics in fps games depeding in the guilds/clans you meet.
in fps games, on public servers, the new players learn tricks and aim by playing with better and more experienced players. in daoc, the situation isnt really the same as you cannot spectate eachother. players with the same experience have the most fun when meeting other as experienced (and dedicated) enemies (and in daoc theres the equipment issue as well), it's kinda obvious really.
would casual players have more fun without powergamers in the scene? of course, even tho there's always some that are better then others. but since this issue cannot be solved when both parts are attracted to the same game, what to do?
if we imagine _everyone_ would go in the FG standard set by mythic (aka 8 people groups), high RR people could get some sort of handicap, maybe reduced castspeed, melee speed, and similar. that would help to ensure balance between FGs in rvr. but if RR is such an advantage, it should be removed completely right? and equipment should follow the same rules, the higher RR the person are (thus more elite) the less bonuses they should give?
but.. these things are a part of the reward system.. rvr much (pay your subs) and you get RPs, pve much and you get good items. so this cannot be removed completely.
hmm, what about these setups then.. if we add 'fun' classes to the groups, like thanes, champs, friars etcetera, would it be better? well, the group would get more utility, and less dmg output. so yeah, that would mean longer fights, and more fun for both parts.
so that is it then? serious rvr guilds form their group with more 'gimped' characters so they still can enjoy fights versus casual games, right? but... 99% of the casual gamers think of daoc as Realm vs Realm, and attacks enemies on sight. most of these still gets a thrill everytime the say an enemy.. and maybe even gets exited when they can try out their spells on different targets to see what happens. so if two of these casual-gamer-groups (note! these groups still have non-gimped classes) fights one rvr-guild-group at the same time (unintentionally) they will win, mostly due to interrupts. and the rvr guild will feel 'fuck that adding shit, lets grp savages/enchanters/cabalists so we can handle adds". the only solution i can see is that casual gamers that want to rvr, can make a group, and if they notice that high rr/elite groups are out, they go 2fg together next run. or 3. or 4. or whatever until they can have a fair chance of success. as it is now, and pisses off most of us rvr dedicated people, is that if a group of casual players dies, they wont come back with 2 groups.. its 7fg at once, camping amg
.enough of my thoughts anyway, they will probably be flamed to hell (note that the above example is only casual gamers vs hardcore gamers, the competition between rvr guilds that leads to 'perfect setups' is another issue).
Aeicaan said:
if you refere to my post with the "those rr ppl are really stupid" then you misunderstand it..
read it again..
what i say is that it is clear that you got loads of emotions connectet to the game...
like the last comment... it is youre sofisticated way of saying "Fuck of you daoc-noob"
Dyss
Fledgling Freddie
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Divinia said:I just have a question, that ill explain so even you can understand.
Everyone knows blablbalba
Why do you all walking around on the clouds thinking there is skill in daoc, thinking there is skill from your group but the only thing you did was to put right classes into a group pressing the right buttons, why do you get so upset when others have chosen to team up against you, since they are also pressing "Easymode" just like you did?
DISCLAIMER: EXCUSE MY ENGLISH GRAMMAR MATES
So u mean that Mancester United and Ferrari in F1 ect ect ect ect are all noobs. Just lucky to start with easy mode not by picking the right players and push there cars to the limit just so they could get better.... OH no it can't be like that how stupied of me
/me slaps myself around a bit with a large trout. they are just retards kicking the ball ect.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz at posts like this... that u even can argue like this is really sad, but hope u never get good at anything since u would think so bad of yourself...uke: 
Divinia
One of Freddy's beloved
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Dyss said:So u mean that Mancester United and Ferrari in F1 ect ect ect ect are all noobs. Just lucky to start with easy mode not by picking the right players and push there cars to the limit just so they could get better.... OH no it can't be like that how stupied of me
Man Utd (sucks) and Ferrari is also obviously competing in the same arena as us
As for good, no i don't rate my e-peen from a game wich involves so poor skill as daoc, i got QW for that.
Dyss
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Divinia said:Man Utd (sucks) and Ferrari is also obviously competing in the same arena as us
As for good, no i don't rate my e-peen from a game wich involves so poor skill as daoc, i got QW for that.
zzz so whats the diffrence? (not that tehy get payed and bla bla bal)
"1337" ppls in daoc are like every1 that are "1337" irl?! spend some time on something and get good at it! call it whatever u like but some call it skill others knowlage other call it easy mode cuz u spend time on something u want to get better on....
oh and yes so there are skill in something u are good in? and don't get run fekked by same fg again agin and again... no then its noobish easy mode that dosen't dare to play useless or not as good char in grp as the next one......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wanna meet me in QW? u play with axe and I have RL? cuz u cant use RL then its easy mode... I hope u can see how stupied this sounds.... so much talking and writeing without thinking
Talivar
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Ppl are missing the point, no1 is saying its wrong to go in optimal groups,what we trying to say is that its wrong to think palying in optimal groups needs all the skill and ppl who play gimped non optimal ppl must be no skilled or noobs.
Basicly this is an issue with attitude not style of play.
Basicly this is an issue with attitude not style of play.
Javlar
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Cba to really get into the discussion. A discussion that started with "why run a 1337-grp" and turned in to the usual "u dont need skills for daoc".
My two cents: Of course skill matters. Of course group-setup matters. Only when combined can you truely excel.
And as for an example: NP is argueably the one of best daoc-guilds in the world. Why? Because they are skilled. And for the ones saying "Well they are all rr9+ with full toa and ml10: They rolled hib/pryd and pwnd the shit out of pretty much everything, including Maelstrom. So there they had rr4~ ml8+ and decent toa on a realm that some would say are not as powerful as Midgard. Yet still they manage to beat Maelstrom numerous times, Maelstrom a guild that are a bit like NP are on exc.
So yes skill matters.
My two cents: Of course skill matters. Of course group-setup matters. Only when combined can you truely excel.
And as for an example: NP is argueably the one of best daoc-guilds in the world. Why? Because they are skilled. And for the ones saying "Well they are all rr9+ with full toa and ml10: They rolled hib/pryd and pwnd the shit out of pretty much everything, including Maelstrom. So there they had rr4~ ml8+ and decent toa on a realm that some would say are not as powerful as Midgard. Yet still they manage to beat Maelstrom numerous times, Maelstrom a guild that are a bit like NP are on exc.
So yes skill matters.
Dyss
Fledgling Freddie
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Divinia said:I'll use shaft then
you don't get my point do u?
I try to undertand what makes u think that daoc is diffrent from qw fotboll or anything that u compete in... u want to get better strong faster? or do u like to lose... NO no1 likes to lose... its okay to lose in daoc when u have had a GREAT fight and alot of fun.... but it aren't that many fights that ends like that... most often it ends that u get added or zerged os just played really bad... and then it REALLY sux to lose. and why is it so bad to be elitist?
E V E R Y human on this planet want to get better in things and they do want to win...
vintervargen
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talivar, show me what guild/people go with a 'gimped' setup only to prove they got skill
tho, we can compare some months before ToA, when both hib and mid were running tank groups. rr/la/vgn/baf all had tank groups, meeting atrocity/blizzard/bc/rg with almost identical cross-realm setups. i know for a fact we in rr won more then we lost (except against jh/np), against savages with bugged quadrate, str relics, and bugged asd. this most show something surely?
tho, we can compare some months before ToA, when both hib and mid were running tank groups. rr/la/vgn/baf all had tank groups, meeting atrocity/blizzard/bc/rg with almost identical cross-realm setups. i know for a fact we in rr won more then we lost (except against jh/np), against savages with bugged quadrate, str relics, and bugged asd. this most show something surely?
Talivar
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Even if there was some groups vinter ppl wouldnt accept they had skill.I personally have never been optimal and ive still won many fights and beat many famous and optimal ppl YET by most im still classed as no skilled or gimped and the same will go for any1 that isnt optimal.
Like i said this is an attitude problem not a choice of style of play problem.Its not about winning or losing its about how ppl view/treat others who dont run optimal groups/specs ect.
Like i said this is an attitude problem not a choice of style of play problem.Its not about winning or losing its about how ppl view/treat others who dont run optimal groups/specs ect.
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