Fao - The Biased, So Called "elite" On Excal

Gordonax

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Dyss said:
zzz so whats the diffrence? (not that tehy get payed and bla bla bal)

Difference is that Jordan can't build a Ferarri car, they don't have to skills and money to do so. In DAoC, any bunch of eight poor players can build an optimal, ToA'd out group. And you know what? They'll still be poor players. 1fg vs 1fg, they'll usually win against a non-optimal group, but not always. And they NEED that optimal setup to give them any chance at all.

With the really dedicated, skilled players they'd win even without a completely optimal group setup. It's as if you stuck Schumacher in a Maclaren: he'd still probably win the championship.

In fact, the really good players will often experiment with different setups to find out if there's a way to give themselves an edge, rather than sticking dogmatically to the same classes.
 

Dyss

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Talivar said:
And what if this fg with thanes didnt get farmed dyss, what if they managed to win all day and even beat fgs u lose to,what would u think then luck,skill or still noobs?

if I have no idea how they are I probably think they are in a lucky state... and should run of and buy a lotto ticket. :D
would be a werid set up that would lost against thane grp and won vs NP grp?
but if I saw em for a week and still pwned in epic and rog item from lair I would salut em....
 

Gordonax

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Dyss said:
you don't get my point do u?
I try to undertand what makes u think that daoc is diffrent from qw fotboll or anything that u compete in... u want to get better strong faster? or do u like to lose... NO no1 likes to lose... its okay to lose in daoc when u have had a GREAT fight and alot of fun.... but it aren't that many fights that ends like that... most often it ends that u get added or zerged os just played really bad... and then it REALLY sux to lose. and why is it so bad to be elitist?
E V E R Y human on this planet want to get better in things and they do want to win...

You're right, and wrong. Take that example of football. 99.9% of footballers play for pub teams/local teams/bunches of mates teams. They know they're never going to get to the world cup. And a lot of them - me for example - know that they're really not going to get much better, no matter what. But it's still fun to play, even when you lose.

It sucks when you lose *all the time*. But most people don't lose all the time, and just enjoy the game INCLUDING losing. Not everyone is obsessed with winning.
 

Vasconcelos

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Ive seen MidgetMafia in pryd running with non so optimal setup n doing rly nice. One of the best daoc vids ive seen is MidgetMafia teh RvR movie (x3 healer, skald, shaman, zerker, x2 sms pre-SI pre-ToA ). :)
 

vintervargen

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pre-toa as in bugged LA styles and 3x bugged asd Vasconcelos :). whoever said sm's and ae stun were gimped pre-toa anyway? ;)

humo, you got anything to discuss or just your pathetic attempts to flame/provoke?

talivar, you're trying to change the human nature through a game... ;)
 

Vasconcelos

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vintervargen said:
pre-toa as in bugged LA styles and 3x bugged asd Vasconcelos :). whoever said sm's and ae stun were gimped pre-toa anyway? ;)

Still different and less optimal than the odd 4 seers 4 vikings. Pre- 1.62 any mid grp with 4 seers could not be gimped unless were grpd with 4 stealthers (n even so)
 

Lethul

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tbh dyssen, shaft is more fotm than rl :)

divinia, want a qw game? i luve that game :worthy:
 

Dyss

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Gordonax said:
Difference is that Jordan can't build a Ferarri car, they don't have to skills and money to do so. In DAoC, any bunch of eight poor players can build an optimal, ToA'd out group. And you know what? They'll still be poor players. 1fg vs 1fg, they'll usually win against a non-optimal group, but not always. And they NEED that optimal setup to give them any chance at all.

With the really dedicated, skilled players they'd win even without a completely optimal group setup. It's as if you stuck Schumacher in a Maclaren: he'd still probably win the championship.

In fact, the really good players will often experiment with different setups to find out if there's a way to give themselves an edge, rather than sticking dogmatically to the same classes.

so you mean that its okay to have extra $$ and time in raceing to get better but not in games?
Might be true that alot of ppls that spend alot of time get there perfect grps and template get killed by not as elitis grp. But most grps that go 1337 :D will be better and harder to kill and know how to play with eachother....

Gordonax said:
You're right, and wrong. Take that example of football. 99.9% of footballers play for pub teams/local teams/bunches of mates teams. They know they're never going to get to the world cup. And a lot of them - me for example - know that they're really not going to get much better, no matter what. But it's still fun to play, even when you lose.

It sucks when you lose *all the time*. But most people don't lose all the time, and just enjoy the game INCLUDING losing. Not everyone is obsessed with winning.

Not everyone is obsessed with winning.Who said elits ppls/grps/guilds are...?
well we all know the most are :D
tho some like to want to be obsessed with winning and some are with obsessed with try winning and think its okay if we lost again.
 

Bracken

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Dyss said:
So u mean that Mancester United and Ferrari in F1 ect ect ect ect are all noobs.

How surprising someone from Nolby would compare DAOC to football or formula 1 - and how amusing he really believes its a valid comparison... ;)

Sums up the problem really - some people blur the boundaries between *winning* in a computer game and what it means in reality (which of course is absolutely nothing). Which is why some of them get so het up about it...
 

Runolas

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Although I think it is interesting these posts pops up from time to time I still belive the conclution is the same. Skill comes from training, you play much you get good. If you team up with the same grp every nigth your teamplay improves. I belive NP could easliy run with f.eks 2Healers/Shaman/Skald/4Thane and still beat a random grp of Hib/Alb 10 out out of 10 times. The difficulties is when they meet other hardcore guild grp from Hib/Alb, thuse they normaly run with optimized grp's - and why should they not?

There are only a few really hard Mid grp about, and saying that every Mid grp runs with 4 seers is biased, as most of them run with 3.

Stateing that Midgard is easymode is also biased and really depends on your point of view and what type of grp you meet. It's no big secret that FoM seldom muster a (although resently there has been made a fixed grp) optimised grp with the same ppl playing toghter every nigth. For instance on Friday we had a decent grp running in Odin's that met an optimized High RR Hib-grp (Lucariello++). I open up the fight's twice with a nice insta, but we lost big time on both occation's. The reason we lost can be added up in low RR(3-5), not optimized grp and ofc lack of playtime in RvR, effectivly making our teamplay many lvl's below the Hib grp - and yes, grp-purge help's a lot.

I find HiB grp's x10 thougher to meet than Alb grp's, but I know this is simply because those hib grp's out there are usually better optimized, Higher RR and ppl that play together on a regulare basis. Having said that there are some ALB grp that are equally though, but in generall they are not close to the Hib grp's.

I've only seen one Mid grp that just rip through any grp they meet and that is NP, but then again I think those guys could have done the same in any realm. My point being that what 1 - 3 guild grp's in Midgard is able to do does not represent the majority.
 

Flimgoblin

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Here's a gross simplification:

1. uber RvR group = optimal group + skill, play together lots and lots and lots = pwning things
2. opted RvR group = optimal group = killing non-optimal groups, losing to the type 1
3. opted pickup group = sit around tk for an hour, pickup players, low morale, don't play together often = losing to 1 and 2
4. non-opted pickup group = non-optimal group, pickup players, low morale, no cohesion = getting farmed unless they can get a zerg somewhere.

the difference between 1 and 2 you could call skill
the difference between 2 and 3 is organisation
the difference between 3 and 4 is ruthlessness and patience

Now where would these fit in?
non-opted RvR group = weird setup (not always the same setup either), play together a bit = who do they kill?
non opted uber group = weird setup (not always the same setup), play together all the time = who do they kill?

That'd answer how much effect skill has - if NP or whoever go around in a group with thanes and mend shamans and other gimplike things can they still kill type 2's - not quite so skilled but with a better group setup?

Let's see the NP thane group :) it sounds like it was cool.

I've not made any mention of equipment there - that's another thing that matters obviously, as does realm rank - a RR8 thane is gonna be nastier than a RR3 thane.

What about buffs? can a type 1 group beat a type 2 or a type 3 group if they're only self-buffed... no buffbots, but the type 2 or type 3 has the usual glut of tk-bbs.

How much effect does skill actually have? Can it overcome gimpy classes? can it overcome no buffs (or at least no buffbot buffs... though having your casters unbuffed could be quite the handicap) can it overcome running in epic armour?

And for those of you comparing to sports... how about golf handicaps? ;)
http://golf.about.com/od/beginners/f/handicapscoreca.htm

The Man U comparison isn't really valid - there's no equipment or optimising groups (though I guess if they fielded a team of goalies they wouldn't do quite so well ;)) but the F1 is a bit better - put a good driver in a slower car.
 

Clipse

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IF a mid group roams with 3 healers, it would never be "gimped".
 

rvn

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Bracken said:
How surprising someone from Nolby would compare DAOC to football or formula 1 - and how amusing he really believes its a valid comparison... ;)

Sums up the problem really - some people blur the boundaries between *winning* in a computer game and what it means in reality (which of course is absolutely nothing). Which is why some of them get so het up about it...
some ppl have different values, for some ppl a computer game means jack shit, and for some footballs means nothing at all. so yes you "could" compare them, but stay in your little box of ignorance ffs.

and there are also different kinds of ppl, those who dont mind looseing to the ppl who hate to loose in ANYTHING. i can easily admit that i hate to be crap/looseing in anything, where as some ppl seem to just be able to "brush it off" w/o careing at all... i envy them :p
 

gia

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I think the main problem here is that it takes a certain knowledge and experience of the situations to notice and appreciate skill.

Following the analogy of F1, I have no idea what makes a good driver, I have never driven a race car, yet I could probably go ahead and say that schumacher only wins because his car is faster and all he does is hold down the gas and follow the track around. Someone that actually knows more of what it takes to win and has experience instead will see that there is more depth to it and appreciate that.

Daoc works the same way, without the needed experience it is harder to notice when someone is playing better/worse. If you see someone playing that only does nearest target/attack and then see someone that knows what targets are best, that is always in the best position, knows how to interrupt when needed and take advantage of a situation as soon as it presents itself or manages to react to an enemy action in an effective manner... if you, the spectator, don't know what those right targets are, what those situations are and don't know the reasons behind some of his actions... both fights are going to seem exactly the same.
 

Runolas

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Flimgoblin said:
Now where would these fit in?
non-opted RvR group = weird setup (not always the same setup either), play together a bit = who do they kill?
non opted uber group = weird setup (not always the same setup), play together all the time = who do they kill?

That'd answer how much effect skill has - if NP or whoever go around in a group with thanes and mend shamans and other gimplike things can they still kill type 2's - not quite so skilled but with a better group setup?

Let's see the NP thane group :) it sounds like it was cool.

I think first alternative will do ok against 4, but will struggle with 3. The last one will take out 2, but will struggle with 1, e.i. why NP (or any other RvRgg) seldom run vierd setup, cuz few of them stand to loose. If I'm not mistaken there is a matter of prestige among those guilds in nr. 1.
 

Skilgannon

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The F1 comparison is interesting.

Would Schumacher still win in a lower qual car? We don't know the answer but there is plenty of history to suggest he wouldn't. Look at Irvine for example. Pretty much Mr Ordinary till he got a Ferrari drive...then all of a sudden he is winning GPs. He leaves Ferrari and is Mr Nobody again. Same thing has happened to others.

The diff between the great and the crap in F1 is miniscule. Only a matter of seconds separate pole with last on the grid.

In RvR, if you put the top groups in a non-opted group with non-opted gear they wouldn't be as good, but would still be better. Just like Schum they live for the game. The question is, would they be as good in a few years time when Boss/Wife only lets them play 2 hours a day?
 

Bracken

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rvn said:
some ppl have different values, for some ppl a computer game means jack shit, and for some footballs means nothing at all. so yes you "could" compare them, but stay in your little box of ignorance ffs.

and there are also different kinds of ppl, those who dont mind looseing to the ppl who hate to loose in ANYTHING. i can easily admit that i hate to be crap/looseing in anything, where as some ppl seem to just be able to "brush it off" w/o careing at all... i envy them :p

Don't be silly. Professional football and Formula 1 are (whether you enjoy watching them or not) multi-million pound industries, followed by millions of people world-wide, where winning or losing ultimately determines people's jobs and livelihoods. DAOC is about you sitting in a room playing in a virtual world of pixels where the outcome has only 1 effect - and that is in your mind. The comparison has no basis in reality. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, given how you approach the game, that you simply don't grasp the simple truth of this. :p
 

rvn

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i doubt most football players play because of the money, in the old days they didnt get much of it, and still ALOT of really serious football players can never live on just kicking ball. However those who can - nice for them.
Money in those sports are just a kind of bonus, wich grants them the opportunity to perform what they love to do even more (compete).

you seem to see football/f1 raceing etc (sports wich grant alot of money) as a profession, and only those seem to matter for you if you are good at them or not.

If you take the sport as football w/o the money and so on its VERY simular to any online game, or game whatsoever. (and hopefully in some years there will be games wich you can make ok liveing off)

oh and reality is all in your mind, so thats where it counts.
 

Bracken

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rvn said:
i doubt most football players play because of the money, in the old days they didnt get much of it, and still ALOT of really serious football players can never live on just kicking ball. However those who can - nice for them.
Money in those sports are just a kind of bonus, wich grants them the opportunity to perform what they love to do even more (compete).

you seem to see football/f1 raceing etc (sports wich grant alot of money) as a profession, and only those seem to matter for you if you are good at them or not.

If you take the sport as football w/o the money and so on its VERY simular to any online game, or game whatsoever. (and hopefully in some years there will be games wich you can make ok liveing off)

oh and reality is all in your mind, so thats where it counts.


Of course amateur football is similar to online gaming in that it's a leisure pursuit where the outcome doesnt have any real effect, other than in the minds of those directly involved. That wasn't the point made. The point made was about the comparison made between DAOC and top level professional sports (i.e. Manchester United and Formula 1) - a comparison which is ludicrous for all the reasons I've stated, just as when people make references to real war when discussing DAOC.

But it doesnt surprise me that some people fail to see the difference. They actually believe that doing well in an online game really matters. It doesn't, not really. If you lose you won't lose your job. You won't die. You just press a few keys and bingo! You're back in Emain again.

To not like losing is perfectly natural (and likewise we all like winning) - but that becomes a problem when it's taken too far due to a person's own distorted sense of self and they start being tossers to other people playing the game. Quite often (though of course not exclusively) it's the so-called "elite" (or self-proclaimed "skillful") players who are the primary culprits of this.
 

rvn

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They actually believe that doing well in an online game really matters. It doesn't, not really.

so just because there are no risks it doesnt matter?
bringing up what matters in life is pretty pointless, you seem to have some kind of checklist that you can just evaluate everyone by. ppl have different values in life.

if you are going to bring up what matters in life, nothing really does if you nail it all down to atoms and so on.

also i dont think you know what your are talking about unless you have taken a game seriously ever...
 

Arnor

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what matters in life is subjective, hence impossible to give one straight definite answer to

teh arnor has sp0ken
 

Marc

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Totally agree with Bracken. Is the attitude of people who think they are elite that is the problem. Professional footbal players that walk into a pub acting all arrogant i can deal with. They are on top of their game, they have "made it". They have tried hard and made sacrificies. Arrogant people in DAoC? rofl. Fckin geeks plain and simple who have never tasted success in their life and its new ground to them.
 

rvn

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with that bitter attitude i bet you have tasted success :D

they have tried hard and made sacrificies. - this goes for everything you do fyi if you want to be on top of anything.
 

Bracken

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rvn said:
They actually believe that doing well in an online game really matters. It doesn't, not really.

so just because there are no risks it doesnt matter?
bringing up what matters in life is pretty pointless, you seem to have some kind of checklist that you can just evaluate everyone by. ppl have different values in life.

if you are going to bring up what matters in life, nothing really does if you nail it all down to atoms and so on.

No checklist. Just pointing out the difference.

Jobs and livelihoods matter. A few pixels don't. Professional sports affect the former (that's why they are called "professional"...). DAOC doesn't. Seems the line is blurred for you which is why you don't see there is no comparison.

rvn said:
also i dont think you know what your are talking about unless you have taken a game seriously ever...

I have done, so yeah I know how it feels to take a game seriously. Too seriously even. But guess I grew out of it...
 

rvn

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Bracken said:
Jobs and livelihoods matter. A few pixels don't. Professional sports affect the former (that's why they are called "professional"...). DAOC doesn't. Seems the line is blurred for you which is why you don't see there is no comparison.



I have done. But guess I grew out of it...

for you it does, not for everyone.

and you are basicly saying: because there are no money in games like daoc, or not that much money in other games like rts/fps (yet) you cant play them at a high level of competition? / they are not worthy of being played at high level competition?..

what did they do in the old days before football became a sport full of money?

also high level of competeing is a way to evolve a game, make it more fun and so on.
 

Vindicator

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rvn said:
They actually believe that doing well in an online game really matters. It doesn't, not really.

so just because there are no risks it doesnt matter?
bringing up what matters in life is pretty pointless, you seem to have some kind of checklist that you can just evaluate everyone by. ppl have different values in life.

if you are going to bring up what matters in life, nothing really does if you nail it all down to atoms and so on.

also i dont think you know what your are talking about unless you have taken a game seriously ever...

This is unbelievable. It's like there in a fantasty world where if they play the 'best' in a game and are the best in the world at that its ok that they have nothing in 'real' life because they have Succeded online. < Not talking specifically about you but this is the kind of attitude / mentality being portrayed>

No F1 and Football Are nothing like Daoc in terms of the value of winning Or even Importance. No I think you'll find a guy in Division 3 probably gets the same wages if not a little more than you average bloke does. From there on up it just gets better so its a job. Its a way to make money, a Profession because they dedicate alot of time to practicing and on team work. At the end of the day they only started playing Football because they enjoyed it but they keep on playing it for the Money or Chance of Success < Being Promoted - Winning the FA cup - Champions league etc >. Do you see Daoc as a Profession ? ^^

I think you will find it isnt Brack or anybody else that has a checklist or weird idea's of real success / importance. Look deep into the mirror mate and look at what you've become, im sure you werent always like that. If your retired stay retired for your own sake even if you wer a good player.

Oh and taking a game 'Seriously' as you put it Eliminates a large portion of the Fun factor and it people get too focused on winning / being the best / having the best stuff. it's all Culmative until it leads to a distortion in the brain of what really matters and what winning really means and how you treat and perceive other people whether friends or Strangers irl and on-line.
 

Bracken

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rvn said:
for you it does, not for everyone.

and you are basicly saying: because there are no money in games like daoc, or not that much money in other games like rts/fps (yet) you cant play them at a high level of competition? / they are not worthy of being played at high level competition?..

what did they do in the old days before football became a sport full of money?

also high level of competeing is a way to evolve a game, make it more fun and so on.

No that's not what I said - being competitive is natural. Positive even. Up to a limit. Where it becomes a problem is where people get it out of perspective and start treating others badly as a result. "Elitism" that results in that is a problem. Absolutely no problem at all with wanting to win (heck, I do too) - but when you dont get your own way (or in trying to get your own way)don't start acting like a tosser. And Im NOT saying it's only (or even all) so-called "elitists" who do this, it's just that is who the thread is about :)
 

rvn

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there is noone that says that you cant have fun when trying to be the best :p
and as ive said before, different values, you are just listing what you think is important. (job,money etc).

before when football wasnt a money producing sport, there were still ppl playing it alot, if they didnt it wouldnt have evolved into what it is now, online gameing and so on is at that stage :p
 

Lethul

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so the meaning of life is to get lots of money? boring :p
 

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