Cm Guild Forum

[Septima]

That's a nice deaf - blind - dumb discussion by Cadelin.
Playing the three monkeys is a daft game imo.
But whatever floats your boat; reality is: CM and Goa actions drove away ppl from an already suffering Cluster, it's only laughable that CM leaves also cause Goa didn't step in their shoes once in a while.
"Memememe gimme underpop bonus or i'll leave game" ... priceless.

I blame the 3 monkeys tbfh..Always zerging adding with shit attitude and lame excuses!!!

OT: CM and GOA were a reason for certains players to leave dyveth, but blaming them for dyveth death is pushing a bit too far. A lot more reasons can be found to partially explain this (old game, new games out, mythic fuck up on certain patches etc, etc...)

And i think it's that what Cadelin fluffle is tryng to say.

 

[Cadelin]

b4 the TT incident there was enough fgs in fg zone on dyvet and at that time is was only Maelstrom (+some others) Our Group and Pulic Enemies that had rolled avalon (if iam not mistaking)

But Fg rvr is a small part of what goes on, on the server. Even before the TT incident there were no(?) new guild groups joining the server and forming a PuG was incredibly difficult. And I mean PuGs where you don't actually know everyone who you are grouping with.

If a server dies when a few guilds decide to re-roll can you really call it alive in the first place?

 

[Chance]

Well FG rvr seem to be kinda of a big part of things it seems... since ppl blame the fg'ers for ruining the server with their reroll to german servers. B4 TT incident there were some new GGs forming up like Valheru, Nero Incubus, NFD3 (gahn grp?), Llaw Arian tryed aswell to get a grp up going and i think there was a guild called H3O that tryed fg scene some times ;>

 

[Sharkith]

CM were no more a contributing factor than anyone else on this server. You have still yet to present any evidence to show why when there was a decent population the AC raids on Dyvet are any different from AC raids on any other server. Until you do this, you cannot blame CM for the population problems.

Cadelin I don't think your principle sentence is very clear. In fact if I read it right your actually agree with Crom so I cannot follow your post or line of argument at all. Crom is saying as are others that when the population here was decent that AC raids were not really a big issue. The fact is simple when the population was low - which you admit it was, they continued to do it and precipitated a situation that even they by their own admission was bad.

After all they stopped doing them didn't they?

In many ways CM by their own admission felt they were contirbuting to the bad feeling here but they admitted it and tried to adjust which they deserve a little credit for at least. What I feel sad about is the fact that they did change their minds and did change their play style and avoided doing it because they knew it was contributing to a bad server and in this thread they are not being recognised for that.

As for you well they said they felt it was doing damage most of us were certain it was doing damage. By all admissions it did damage then. Now if your trying to claim whether or not in population terms it had a big impact then I think your arguing past what Crom, CM and others have actually said on this point. Your in fact having a seperate argument on the issue it might make sense to try and join the seperate argument up and try to move on....

Sharkith

edit: what I also find sad is that people are wasting energy on gloating at their apparent move on when in fact it would make more sense to try and understand what it was that was upsetting them so much about the current state of RvR.

 

[Cadelin]

Cadelin I don't think your principle sentence is very clear. In fact if I read it right your actually agree with Crom so I cannot follow your post or line of argument at all. Crom is saying as are others that when the population here was decent that AC raids were not really a big issue. The fact is simple when the population was low - which you admit it was, they continued to do it and precipitated a situation that even they by their own admission was bad.

After all they stopped doing them didn't they?

In many ways CM by their own admission felt they were contirbuting to the bad feeling here but they admitted it and tried to adjust which they deserve a little credit for at least. What I feel sad about is the fact that they did change their minds and did change their play style and avoided doing it because they knew it was contributing to a bad server and in this thread they are not being recognised for that.

As for you well they said they felt it was doing damage most of us were certain it was doing damage. By all admissions it did damage then. Now if your trying to claim whether or not in population terms it had a big impact then I think your arguing past what Crom, CM and others have actually said on this point. Your in fact having a seperate argument on the issue it might make sense to try and join the seperate argument up and try to move on....

Sharkith

edit: what I also find sad is that people are wasting energy on gloating at their apparent move on when in fact it would make more sense to try and understand what it was that was upsetting them so much about the current state of RvR.

What I have been trying to say: You cannot judge CM on their actions alone. You have to judge their actions compared to others who are doing similar. When you compare their actions to AC raiders on other servers CM are no worse and certainly not to blame for initial population problems Dyvet started to have 1.5 years ago etc.

 

[Sharkith]

What I have been trying to say: You cannot judge CM on their actions alone. You have to judge their actions compared to others who are doing similar. When you compare their actions to AC raiders on other servers CM are no worse and certainly not to blame for initial population problems Dyvet started to have 1.5 years ago etc.

I am not sure you can make any judgement on the basis of that comparison though - its basically meaningless. Most judgements are made against a principle (in this case two principles are in play - the sense of fair play and respect for others on a dwindling server). What your trying to do is strip the actions of CM from their context (by arguing that what they are doing is no worse than what anyone elsewhere does) which leaves the whole debate hanging in mid air.

The major point is you can only really understand actions and their meaning 'within' the context under which they were conducted. By all admissions (even CM's remember) what they were doing was particularly bad - otherwise Caledin why did they stop doing it?

 

[kirennia]

CM as a guild and/or late night group stopped taking the relics early in the morning a good couple of months before the TT incident if I remember correctly. It was just a select few from various guilds that kept on doing it, which happened to include one or two of them, thus they kept on getting the flak. It's not CMs 'fault' at all.

I know exactly why we left. That evening we went out into the FG zone and had some nice fights. After the evening of trying to show people that not all albs specifically want AC raids and that it was detremental to the game, we...or well, I just thought it wouldn't instantly stop them but at least try and get some other people thinking. Not long afterwards I even got PMs off of a couple of other GMs I knew saying they'd do the same if anyone was unlucky enough to place a relic in their keep in protest. People were fed up, no matter what people say otherwise.

At this point, we'd alreaady discussed the german servers and laughed them off saying there was no way we'd ever reroll there as we aren't exactly a pve guild (except for lagga ).

Whines started, Requiel or goa, whoever buckled and that was it for us, we decided to leave there and then. Short of leaving the game completely, we decided rerolling would be an option on the german servers having zags being german and the willpower to start up a new, slightly different group. That was that.

You're forgetting, it wasn't just the FGers which rerolled in the end, many people who contributed to all types of rvr left, myself included. I was far from restricted to guild only groups.

At the time, there were a few new groups popping up in the FG zone but overall, the population was still declining anyway. This was just a catalyst event which moved things along quicker then they otherwise would have.

You are almost there, now just think a little bit more. They have only been a contributing factor from when the population was ALREADY low. When Prydwen and Excalibur had just been clustered there were plenty of people around.

The server had been dead along time before the TT incident and you can't really blame CM for what either TT or GOA did.

Can't help but think that's a slight lay of blame on us from you (correct me if I'm wrong, if not you're intitled to your opinion).

The thing is, this sort of thing had been done on the American servers before quite a bit and AoD did it to a non-relic keep here also. I think I recall someone saying it happened on the german servers too but I could be wrong with that one.

We left specifically because of the way GoA reacted to our decision and others followed shortly after. I can't speak for them but I'm pretty sure if goa hadn't of done anything, this mass exodus wouldn't of happened the way it did.

How were we to know they'd hand out bannings for something which on other servers is okay? It was just a ridiculous, biased decision made by them which only makes me think they caved to the whining. It's still sad to think about, still want to get my heretic to rr10 but atm I just can't be bothered. Everytime I log on, I just remind myself of what happened and usually log off shortly afterwards (unless I do some old drunkard pm's ).




As for the thread and what they say, I don't really agree with what they're trying to get done. Okay so people say every realm should have the underpopulated bonus because people are struggling to keep level 9/10 keeps up with their current amount of realm points.

The thing is, there is less of a population in general, so less attackers on each keep, thus a need to keep them lower level which this does perfectly. Working as intended I'm afraid.

 

[Cadelin]

Can't help but think that's a slight lay of blame on us from you (correct me if I'm wrong, if not you're intitled to your opinion).

I was simply pointing out that it was your choice. You made that decision and even today I am sure you stand by what you did. Similarly GOA had plenty of time to think up a solution and they stand by their decision also. There was no evil CM mastermind tricking you into doing things you didn't want to do.

 

[partyanimal]

i remember when exca had 3500 and pryd 3000+ players on prime time.
i remember when gorre had 2500-3000 players and u needed an application to log in
i remember when glast had 3400+ playes and there were germans rerollers from salis which had always 3500 players
...all these servers are dead...

and its CM fault!

 

[Cadelin]

I am not sure you can make any judgement on the basis of that comparison though - its basically meaningless. Most judgements are made against a principle (in this case two principles are in play - the sense of fair play and respect for others on a dwindling server). What your trying to do is strip the actions of CM from their context (by arguing that what they are doing is no worse than what anyone elsewhere does) which leaves the whole debate hanging in mid air.

The major point is you can only really understand actions and their meaning 'within' the context under which they were conducted. By all admissions (even CM's remember) what they were doing was particularly bad - otherwise Caledin why did they stop doing it?

In order to make any kind of informed judgement you have to compare things.

Example:
Who is the best guild group of all time? - You would look at various guild groups and compare what they did before coming to a conclusion.

In this case:
Did CM kill the server? - You compare CM to guilds on other servers that do the same before drawing any conclusion.


Doing AC raids was unpopular with alot of people on this forum. That doesn't mean it was the reason people left the server and if as you said they have stopped doing them, why hasn't the server population recovered?

 

[Tuthmes]

i remember when exca had 3500 and pryd 3000+ players on prime time.
i remember when gorre had 2500-3000 players and u needed an application to log in
i remember when glast had 3400+ playes and there were germans rerollers from salis which had always 3500 players
...all these servers are dead...

and its CM fault!

It's the shit attitude of the english server community, that makes the difference. Not allowed to zerg cause you're a zerging shit then, not allowed to solo cause its dumb and free walking rp's.

Not allowed to 8vs8 for fun, cause if you loose you're shit and people don't understand why you play the game at all (playing for a challenge vs playing for fun) and usually log or disband. Playing with rr11 groups and going; "ohhlolololerskates" you lost again you n00bs.

Taking the (in)game (stuff) far to personally.

And last, but certainly not least, people who think its cool to roleplay irl and think this virtual war > people's real life gaming fun. If people don't enjoy the game anymore the way its played, they should foad in bad way's or life with it. It's within the rules, or so against the SotG.

Still find it funny how the french and german servers are doin "ok", while the english servers have gone dead (long before). Yet everybody is pointing the finger to whatever, or just don't care about it. Reminds me of people testing evade/parry/block %, without wondering what the circumstances are and goin wtf, why doesnt this make sense after the 5th test .


Ohh and Prydwen with 3000+ players, ye mebbe when the excal server crashed...

 

[partyanimal]

It's the shit attitude of the english server community, that makes the difference. Not allowed to zerg cause you're a zerging shit then, not allowed to solo cause its dumb and free walking rp's.

Not allowed to 8vs8 for fun, cause if you loose you're shit and people don't understand why you play the game at all (playing for a challenge vs playing for fun) and usually log or disband. Playing with rr11 groups and going; "ohhlolololerskates" you lost again you n00bs.

i think that summarises the last chapter of dyvet... 101% true story

 

[Sharkith]

In order to make any kind of informed judgement you have to compare things.

Example:
Who is the best guild group of all time? - You would look at various guild groups and compare what they did before coming to a conclusion.

In this case:
Did CM kill the server? - You compare CM to guilds on other servers that do the same before drawing any conclusion.


Doing AC raids was unpopular with alot of people on this forum. That doesn't mean it was the reason people left the server and if as you said they have stopped doing them, why hasn't the server population recovered?

you see I have not once said this was the reason why people left. If I did correct me.

Like Crom and others (including CM) I am prepared to agree that it was most probably a contributing factor to an unhealthy atmosphere. But equally I feel strongly that Kirenna is right. I am not surprised TT still feel the way they do.

Like I said above in order to make an argument you make claims that are either valid or invalid. They are either true or not. Its the claims that matter. Your confusing the basic structure of argument with a method for validating the claims. Comparison is not the only valid method for assessing the claims. For example you can just take what people are telling you and accept that there could be some truth in it.

Why you want to argue otherwise is what remains unclear. So to put it clearly just what are you claiming? That we can say nothing about server population and that all this argument is a waste of time?

If so why do you post so much then....

 

[brad]

CM as a guild and/or late night group stopped taking the relics early in the morning a good couple of months before the TT incident if I remember correctly. It was just a select few from various guilds that kept on doing it, which happened to include one or two of them, thus they kept on getting the flak. It's not CMs 'fault' at all.

.

CM started the entire thing though, it's like crippling a kid and saying try walk again. You can't, once the damage has been dealt it's there for ever and they took there time, realising the fact that by chain ac'ing everything everynight brought on the decline of the server.

 

[Cadelin]

Why you want to argue otherwise is what remains unclear. So to put it clearly just what are you claiming? That we can say nothing about server population and that all this argument is a waste of time?

If so why do you post so much then....

Just for you Sharkith; I have been saying:

CM are NOT to blame for the population problems on Dyvet.

 

[Kinetix]

It's the shit attitude of the english server community, that makes the difference. Not allowed to zerg cause you're a zerging shit then, not allowed to solo cause its dumb and free walking rp's.

Not allowed to 8vs8 for fun, cause if you loose you're shit and people don't understand why you play the game at all (playing for a challenge vs playing for fun) and usually log or disband. Playing with rr11 groups and going; "ohhlolololerskates" you lost again you n00bs.

Taking the (in)game (stuff) far to personally.

And last, but certainly not least, people who think its cool to roleplay irl and think this virtual war > people's real life gaming fun. If people don't enjoy the game anymore the way its played, they should foad in bad way's or life with it. It's within the rules, or so against the SotG.

Still find it funny how the french and german servers are doin "ok", while the english servers have gone dead (long before). Yet everybody is pointing the finger to whatever, or just don't care about it. Reminds me of people testing evade/parry/block %, without wondering what the circumstances are and goin wtf, why doesnt this make sense after the 5th test .


Ohh and Prydwen with 3000+ players, ye mebbe when the excal server crashed...

Omg your so repped

edit: FFS you must spread rep before giving rep to thutmes again

 

[Soulja_IA_]

Just for you Sharkith; I have been saying:

CM are NOT to blame for the population problems on Dyvet.

Tho they did contribute to why some of people left I think this is what people are saying with the grief play over that time just take time out and look at all FH comments regarding CM and you will then see what people were saying.

Soulja

 

[Cromcruaich]

When you compare their actions to AC raiders on other servers CM are no worse and certainly not to blame for initial population problems Dyvet started to have 1.5 years ago etc.

Youve changed your frame of reference here. This I can agree with you on. And i'm happy that ive given you the opportunity to be more precise in your meaning.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I was simply pointing out that it was your choice. You made that decision and even today I am sure you stand by what you did. Similarly GOA had plenty of time to think up a solution and they stand by their decision also. There was no evil CM mastermind tricking you into doing things you didn't want to do.

No but there is a line of cause and effect precipitated by CM and the whole AC raiding that lead to the TT incident. Note im not making any judgement here, just saying there was a cause and effect. I'm not saying they take responsibility for the TT stuff, just that they over contributed to the precipitation of the situation. And I was using the TT incident as an example where people have left the server, as a means of falsifying your core premise of CM havent caused the population to decrease. For one person to of left would be a population decrease. Hence why I then went on to say we can have a useful discussion perhaps over the degree of that decrease, and which then caused you to go on and usefully more explicitly define your meaning. I'm only to happy to of helped.

As to the overall flavour of the thread, ive cut CM a lot of slack and arnt as bitter as some people (time is a great healer) and them leaving wont now improve the population situation. But this is mostly irrelevant as I don't thing they are likely to be quiting in anycase.

 

[aika]

CM are responsible for the global warming mates!
And read Tuthmes post.. thats why the servers are dead.. too much elitist pricks.

 

[Septina]

Regarding Tuthmes post, that shit occurs on ALL servers no matter what.
Atleast been like that on all servers i've played on, the difference is tho that on the UK cluster most people are a part of the community, FH, Irc etc etc on a german server you cant be as much a part of the community since most people dont speak and or understand german, but believe me, this sort of thing occurs just as much on Avalon as it does on Dyvet. Just check the german alternative for FH or join the avalon rvr channel and you'll see what i mean.

 

[aika]

Regarding Tuthmes post, that shit occurs on ALL servers no matter what.
Atleast been like that on all servers i've played on, the difference is tho that on the UK cluster most people are a part of the community, FH, Irc etc etc on a german server you cant be as much a part of the community since most people dont speak and or understand german, but believe me, this sort of thing occurs just as much on Avalon as it does on Dyvet. Just check the german alternative for FH or join the avalon rvr channel and you'll see what i mean.

so what is the reason then septina?!?!?!?! I want answers !!
probably just the game getting old anyway

 

[Cadelin]

No but there is a line of cause and effect precipitated by CM and the whole AC raiding that lead to the TT incident. Note im not making any judgement here, just saying there was a cause and effect. I'm not saying they take responsibility for the TT stuff, just that they over contributed to the precipitation of the situation. And I was using the TT incident as an example where people have left the server, as a means of falsifying your core premise of CM havent caused the population to decrease. For one person to of left would be a population decrease. Hence why I then went on to say we can have a useful discussion perhaps over the degree of that decrease, and which then caused you to go on and usefully more explicitly define your meaning. I'm only to happy to of helped.

I have not changed what I have been saying at all. In my first reply to Sollers I explained why it isn't CM fault and have been trying to explain this to the slower members of the forum over and over again.

The TT incident is an example of people leaving the server however that was not CMs responsibility. You either blame TT or GOA depending on your opinion.

You are right that one person leaving the server would be a population decrease. However that doesn't mean its CM fault even if they say so in their angry quit message. The populations of all servers is dropping slowly, AC raids would have happened without CM and that person would have still probably left and blamed someone else they didn't like when leaving even if CM didn't exist.

 

[Bistrup666]

CM as a guild and/or late night group stopped taking the relics early in the morning a good couple of months before the TT incident if I remember correctly. It was just a select few from various guilds that kept on doing it, which happened to include one or two of them, thus they kept on getting the flak. It's not CMs 'fault' at all.
.

U don't remember correctly they stopped for a week or so then as U say began joining and then pretty much the same fg as earlier that ran RR in the early hours. They havn't done it much lately tho.

They are not they sole reason the sever is in the state it is but they are a factor, and I would even say a major factor.

 

[Coldbeard]

The Dyvet problem is so complicated and composed of so many different elements that any attempt I do to try to summarize it here would be utter futile.

Reading Cadelin's posts here I must say that I find It rather daft and completely naive to claim that CM's actions on Dyvet has not had a negative impact and is not a contributing factor to the server problems - which again is causing people to quit. It's arguable to what extent it has affected Dyvet, but that it has, is a fact.

Personally I think a mix between game changes, combined with turmoils inside community is a much more important factor. Much could be written here about this, but frankly I am getting tired of Dyvet and the sad state of affairs. Tired of repeating the same stuff over and over again too.

 

[eble@work]

I blame horner!

CM had 'an' effect on this server for sure, but as it was pointed out many times, for a good fair few of the last AC raids they weren't full CM groups.

I can confirm that as I think I was log'd on trying to defend on most of the AC raids playing from australia it just happens to be in the middle of the day for me.

CM people were in the grp's that took the relics wihtout a doubt, but then so were other guilds/solos etc.

The last AC raid I was on was when hib liberated the mids relics to save them from the albs

The TT thing had a big effect on the FG'ers, what we were left with was the casuals (who mostly don't read here anyway) and the hardcore 1v1 people.

It's just a pitty this server has taken a massive nosedive in the last few months, it will be utter shite by the time WAR rolls round and we can all bail out.

GOA did/might/does have plans Requiel bailed out (don't blame him) very unlikely anything will be done to this cluster othethan switching it off a few weeks after WAR opens.

I managed to hang on to about 4am here and the server pop was only about 350 people - real sad state of affairs.

Eble

 

[eble@work]

refer above - double post

 

[Cromcruaich]

I have not changed what I have been saying at all. In my first reply to Sollers I explained why it isn't CM fault and have been trying to explain this to the slower members of the forum over and over again.

The TT incident is an example of people leaving the server however that was not CMs responsibility. You either blame TT or GOA depending on your opinion.

You are right that one person leaving the server would be a population decrease. However that doesn't mean its CM fault even if they say so in their angry quit message. The populations of all servers is dropping slowly, AC raids would have happened without CM and that person would have still probably left and blamed someone else they didn't like when leaving even if CM didn't exist.

I choose my words carefully, i explicitly avoided 'responsibility' if you look back. But please dont get side tracked by my use of TT as an example of people who have left the server. It was merely there as I expected people to end up requesting examples of people who have left, and I dont want to get side tracked into the specifics of The TT Incident.

What I would be really interested in is what excal people who we're around precluster think? I'm guessing that at that time CM we're doing AC raids on a regular basis (just before cluster it was certainly said in our guild that we were gonna get an idiot guild who likes to pve stuff down - i'm paraphrasing their ), now the reason ive not argued that I believe CM contributed to any population decreases in the timeframe you have redefined after my input (1.5 years +) is because I really don't know.

So what are old time excal players opinions on this?

Oh and on your final point, please offer evidence of this. Seems like you are now trying to reshape the discussion towards CM not being responsible for AC raiding either. Its pure conjecture anyhow and a matter of opinion. I think there would of been a lot less AC raiding without CM around. You appear to disagree.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Also it would be really interesting to see the overall pop trends since the start. I suspect as I think a lot of us do, that the ToA grind is where the rot starting setting in, and probably created the point where the population went from stable/rising, into decline. Release of warhammer as well, but iirc things were already in decline before that. My memory isnt what it used to be.

 

[Arelas]

Hmm, i don't think CM would quit this game, cause they are addicted to AC raiding, so rather have them AC raiding Hib/Mid, than some store...
Get crime away from the streets, not into them...

And i will miss killing wicalea in rvr