About savages part 1713

[Amadon]

Originally posted by cougar-
atleast have the manners to call this class destruction a nerf

from my perspective it brought a class into line with other classes of a similar nature, thus it wasn't class destruction and thus not a nerf

I would be lying if I called it a nerf.

Obviously your perspective differs on this tho

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by cougar-
remove determination is kinda enough to gimp them, imagine having primary dmg dealer mezzable, and you cant realy replace them with anything else.

Well, Determination shouldn't exist as it does now anyway. It's a rediculous RA. Drop it to 10% per level, remove it from Savages (or give it to other Hybrids ), increase the cost to the original levels. We are no longer playing RvR in version 1.51.

 

[cougar-]

Originally posted by Pin
I call it a nerf. I don't call it class destruction.

0qui zerkers lose ~30% total damage. max qui zerkers lose ~20%. SZs lose ~15%, 5-spec SBs lose ~10%.

Hardly the end of the world.


The only reason the zerker looks bad now is the gap to the Savage was widened further.

zerk can do 1 thing, damage. This change lowered zerks dmg down more reasonable levels, ie to same lvl as other tanks (who have more utility in form of more defense or more group friendly ablitys.) Zerk is good for one thing after nerf, prevent flight.
Savage dont need prevent flight, he kill instead

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by Begach
Just to qualify here. A savage can't SPEC 2h afaik. They have to style off thier normal melee line. They do not get a special line with different grow rates like LW.

Thanks for your qualification. Too bad it is wrong. Midgard doesn't have an "advanced weapon spec" to blow their points in because they don't have to. The normal weapon specs allow either 1H or 2H versions, which is why Warriors can spec 50 shield and 50 weapon, slam and then switch to 2H to pwn where Armsmen would have to be a hybrid spec (lower weaponskill) to do the same. True, they don't get new styles with different growth rate, etc, but they really don't have to, as the Mid styles look pretty good to me.

 

[cougar-]

Originally posted by Pin
Well, Determination shouldn't exist as it does now anyway. It's a rediculous RA. Drop it to 10% per level, remove it from Savages (or give it to other Hybrids ), increase the cost to the original levels. We are no longer playing RvR in version 1.51.

i agree, but if other classes have it, you prefer those instead of the one who dont, like reavers, thanes. just remove all group realmablitys and determination for a better game! but thats another issue.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by cougar-
zerk can do 1 thing, damage. This change lowered zerks dmg down more reasonable levels, ie to same lvl as other tanks (who have more utility in form of more defense or more group friendly ablitys.) Zerk is good for one thing after nerf, prevent flight.
Savage dont need prevent flight, he kill instead

It's not reduced to the same level as other tanks. It's the same damage per hit as other tanks (well, same damage per hit as 2h), but they still swing faster.

edit: excluding savages, ofc.

 

[stunned]

Originally posted by Begach
Says the healer who didn't know about stun/mezz.........or maybe just perhaps playing the same schoolyard horseshit as cougar.

As i recall you got owned in that thread.

I'm done with you now. You can go.

B.

Its like the words just flush out of that sick mouth of yours. Maybe see a dentist or better yet a shrink.

Or maybe its just the puberty, and it will pass away.

Oh and to own someone You need to make a point. In your case try make yourself understandable before trying to "own" lamo.

 

[cougar-]

Originally posted by Pin
It's not reduced to the same level as other tanks. It's the same damage per hit as other tanks (well, same damage per hit as 2h), but they still swing faster.

yes, this brief forumposts is wrong media for this complex matter

my point was, zerk was a good, fun and maybe overpowered class for its pure and raw dmg deal, now he does what other do, maybe a bit better still but nothing special. Basicly, non attractive class after change.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by cougar-
yes, this brief forumposts is wrong media for this complex matter

my point was, zerk was a good, fun and maybe overpowered class for its pure and raw dmg deal, now he does what other do, maybe a bit better still but nothing special. Basicly, non attractive class after change.

he's only non-attractive when compared against the current savage. compare the zerk to any other tank in the game and he is still attractive.

 

[vintervargen]

Originally posted by cougar-
remove determination is kinda enough to gimp them, imagine having primary dmg dealer mezzable, and you cant realy replace them with anything else.

zerks and savages are ofc completely useless because they are on pair with the other realms tanks, right?

 

[Begach]

Originally posted by Belomar
Thanks for your qualification. Too bad it is wrong.

You say it's wrong then say the EXACT SAME THING. Hows it wrong?? It's an ability not a spec - correct. They style off thier main melee lines not an advanced line - correct. An because of this mythic have it all over the mid classes - correct. They get no benefits from an advanced line - correct. Please explain where your statement conflicts with mine.

B.

 

[vintervargen]

and the 2h savage weaponskill isnt really the issue imo, those are blockable.. h2h savages aint as they counts as dualweilders...

 

[Begach]

Originally posted by stunned
Oh and to own someone You need to make a point. In your case try make yourself understandable before trying to "own" lamo.

Did i say i was the one that "owned" you?..........as i recall you owned yourself. I just got you started and gave you a prod every now and again.

Gotta learn to read between the lines an not make those dumbassed assumtions mate

B.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Begach
Please explain where your statement conflicts with mine.

B.

okay

Originally posted by Begach
It's an ability not a spec - correct.

Not really.

Originally posted by Begach
They style off thier main melee lines not an advanced line - correct.

They only have 1 line in Midgard. (Sword, Axe or Hammer). A 1h Sword is a Sword. a 2h Sword is a Sword. Spec Sword and you get the same kind of damage using a Sword as you do using a Sword.

Originally posted by Begach
An because of this mythic have it all over the mid classes - correct.

Errr... see above.

Originally posted by Begach
They get no benefits from an advanced line - correct.

There is no advanced line. See above.

 

[stunned]

Originally posted by Begach
Did i say i was the one that "owned" you?..........as i recall you owned yourself. I just got you started and gave you a prod every now and again.

Gotta learn to read between the lines an not make those dumbassed assumtions mate

B.

All I remeber is You kept talking how healers could chain cast mes and stun.

Oh and alot talking about Ebay ... maybe You have closer experience with them then You would like to tell us

 

[Begach]

Originally posted by stunned
All I remeber is You kept talking how healers could chain cast mes and stun.

Lol nope.....you did....i just let you.

Originally posted by stunned
Oh and alot talking about Ebay ... maybe You have closer experience with them that You would like to tell us

Damn fergot about the eBay thing...........hold on lemme edit above post.

B.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Pin
Well, Determination shouldn't exist as it does now anyway. It's a rediculous RA. Drop it to 10% per level, remove it from Savages (or give it to other Hybrids ), increase the cost to the original levels. We are no longer playing RvR in version 1.51.

We are no longer in 1.51 because tanks are no longer RP cows who spent their online time doing a good impression of a lawn statue.

Sort out CC issues and there is no need for Determination. I would love to see CC as it was intended, i.e. a defensive tool and not an offensive one.

Mythic have a hard job pleasing everyone but I am sure they don't want a return to the days when a large proportion of the customer base spent the bulk of RvR frozen in place waiting their turn to be blasted to death at range so quickly there isn't even time to use an emote.

Whilst CC exists then Det has to stay for those classes that cannot do ranged damage as part of their primary spec. Whilst I would reluctantly give up det from my savage I would expect something in return like pf.

If we went the whole hog and said savages are hybrids and therefore get hybrid RA's then savages would need to be given the hybrid tools to go along with this. Make buffs cost power and add either group enhancement buffs or ranged insta damage.

Savages suffer from the same limitations that prompted the introduction of cheap RA's and det to main/light tanks. The whole picture has to be looked at, and again Mythic aren't gonna want a class that is easily cc'd and that possesess no ranged attack or group abilities. Main/light tanks were given those RA's for a reason and the reason is still valid. The reason is also perfectly applicable to the savage.

 

[stunned]

Originally posted by Begach
Lol nope.....you did....i just let you.




Damn fergot about the eBay thing...........hold on lemme edit above post.

B.

?????????????????????????????????????

Can You PM me when You manage to make a post that acctually makes any sence. Will stop posting here untill then.

Or You can of course keep on spamming your alian ...

 

[Ialkarn]

Beserkers 'll still do more damage than mercs in 1.62
50% more damage instead of 200% more damage
and it's fair cause they sacrifice their defenses to be more offensive
studded+evade III its a bit worse than chain+evade I.

nothing of bad about that..
whit the difference trolls beserkers 'll have more weapon skills than mercs cause trolls>highlanders in terms of ws
and even more if those mercs are specced thrust (axes,swords,hammers,la are 100% str based..thrust it's 50% dex 50% str,actually more dex than str).

So it's a nerf.

the only whine I can accept its the sb one;
coz they are the only realm whit stealthers whitout access to dex based weapons (so they suffer more than their assasin opponents a str poison debuff)
Introduce a dex/quick debuff poison and you 'll fix it.
maybe reduce the ammount for both type of debuff to not boost them too much

 

[parzi]

total pages of whining: 54365

 

[old.Nol]

It's not very often I take the time to go civil on these boards anymore, mostly because I lost faith in the honourable intentions of my opposition, but also because I just can't be asked, but I think I might make an exception to explain my feelings on this subject properly.

With regards to zerkers, I feel for the guys who chose the class because they liked what it was supposed to be, those are the people that lose in this mess. Why do I feel nothing for the zerker fix/nerf, well mostly because it was a form of self mutilation, just like savages are becoming. Instead of people saying this class needs to be fixed and brought in line with other classes, the one side(there are exceptions) denies emphatically that there is anything wrong with the class, while the other side rages at it.

Those that are in denial, know very well how powerful that class is, because they chose to play it in the first place, they chose it because it would PWN! everything in it's path, and boy, do they like to be uber, once again, there are exceptions.

Instead of trying to achieve some form of "balanced" suggestion for a fix, we leave it in the hands of Mythic, who are completely clueless about class balance, or they would not have released it in the first place. Mythic have a history of fucking up classes when they try to "fix" them, but as your enemy, we don't give a shite how badly that class is nerfed, because as far we are concerned, you have been abusing it for ages as it is. So we bay for blood, laugh and point etc when the class gets battered into obscurity.

There is a simpler approach, where we could field suggestions as realm TL's as opposed to forcing Mythic's hand, but I doubt very much we will ever work together. Some of the people are still under the illusion that they have far better skills realm wide and their opposition is useless.

This is the reason why I feel absolutely nothing for nerfed fotm classes it's because the majority of the people it affects are selfish, misguided arseholes in denial, that still believe that they're tactically superior in some way. If you want to be treated with a modicum respect or a player to be feared, then come back when you're dealing out pain with your post 1.62 zerker. Don't expect me and the other 1500 people on excal to believe you're any good as player, when you jump from class to class, based totally on the fact that the class is uber.

Lastly, there is nothing like honesty, that is why people like Finster have my respect, he plays an overpowered class, but at least he admits it.

[/opinion]

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by dakeyras
Whilst CC exists then Det has to stay for those classes that cannot do ranged damage as part of their primary spec.

I think that CC immunity should be as long as you were mezzed for. So if I mezz you for 10 seconds, then you have immunity for 10 seconds.

As it is once the range is closed I have absolutely no chance of surviving. I can't mezz you because you're immune, I can't sprint away because you have shammy buff and your own end buff and I am giving you free backstyles. I can't slam you, and neither can my blocker because of your insane evades.

If you get ranged protection, don't you think we should get some form of defense?

 

[parzi]

this "cant hit them with slam" is pure bs tbh.

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by old.Nol
It's not very often I take the time to go civil on these boards anymore, mostly because I lost faith in the honourable intentions of my opposition, but also because I just can't be asked, but I think I might make an exception to explain my feelings on this subject properly.

With regards to zerkers, I feel for the guys who chose the class because they liked what it was supposed to be, those are the people that lose in this mess. Why do I feel nothing for the zerker fix/nerf, well mostly because it was a form of self mutilation, just like savages are becoming. Instead of people saying this class needs to be fixed and brought in line with other classes, the one side(there are exceptions) denies emphatically that there is anything wrong with the class, while the other side rages at it.

Those that are in denial, know very well how powerful that class is, because they chose to play it in the first place, they chose it because it would PWN! everything in it's path, and boy, do they like to be uber, once again, there are exceptions.

Instead of trying to achieve some form of "balanced" suggestion for a fix, we leave it in the hands of Mythic, who are completely clueless about class balance, or they would not have released it in the first place. Mythic have a history of fucking up classes when they try to "fix" them, but as your enemy, we don't give a shite how badly that class is nerfed, because as far we are concerned, you have been abusing it for ages as it is. So we bay for blood, laugh and point etc when the class gets battered into obscurity.

There is a simpler approach, where we could field suggestions as realm TL's as opposed to forcing Mythic's hand, but I doubt very much we will ever work together. Some of the people are still under the illusion that they have far better skills realm wide and their opposition is useless.

This is the reason why I feel absolutely nothing for nerfed fotm classes it's because the majority of the people it affects are selfish, misguided arseholes in denial, that still believe that they're tactically superior in some way. If you want to be treated with a modicum respect or a player to be feared, then come back when you're dealing out pain with your post 1.62 zerker. Don't expect me and the other 1500 people on excal to believe you're any good as player, when you jump from class to class, based totally on the fact that the class is uber.

Lastly, there is nothing like honesty, that is why people like Finster have my respect, he plays an overpowered class, but at least he admits it.

[/opinion]

totally agree tbh.
Zerkers needed a nerf, there were no two ways about it, just like savages now and chanters always has been. But the real chanterwhine (cept from los-pet) didnt start before the zerker-nerf was announced. And the real savage nerf didnt start till chanternerf was pretty obvious, which leads me to believe that there has been created a nerf-thirst, and no doubt the bd nerf cries will be louder (but i suspect there will be another class that gets it, since bd isnt really a group char, and grouping is what daoc is about)


and lets say the mezz immunity thingy goes for the delve of the spell, not the actual mezz duration. Think it will be damn boring to be tanks otherwise.

 

[dakeyras]

Agree with alot of what you are saying but the end user can't really decide what is best for balance because the end user is usually very biased and protective over something they have spent time and money on.

Most of us, me included, think that Mythic have been heavy-handed with nerfs in the past, but when I try and look at it objectively I realise that they were right, and there was method behind the madness.

My only real problem with Mythics policy of a nerf/boost cycle to control population etc is the time it takes for them to act. It is time to act when a problem is identified...not 6 months later.

It wouldn't be as painful if a player didn't become accustomed to dealing out more damage than they should.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by parzi
this "cant hit them with slam" is pure bs tbh.

I regularly run with a blocker, cf's tanks are primarily blockers, not once yet has a savage on me been blocked.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by dakeyras
We are no longer in 1.51 because tanks are no longer RP cows who spent their online time doing a good impression of a lawn statue.

Sort out CC issues and there is no need for Determination. I would love to see CC as it was intended, i.e. a defensive tool and not an offensive one.

Whilst CC exists then Det has to stay for those classes that cannot do ranged damage as part of their primary spec. Whilst I would reluctantly give up det from my savage I would expect something in return like pf.

Savages suffer from the same limitations that prompted the introduction of cheap RA's and det to main/light tanks. The whole picture has to be looked at, and again Mythic aren't gonna want a class that is easily cc'd and that possesess no ranged attack or group abilities. Main/light tanks were given those RA's for a reason and the reason is still valid.

Of course it was put in there for a reason, but Mythic went completely overboard with CC nerfing in terms of Determination.

Back when RAs were put in tanks were indeed RP cows who stood around for minutes unable to do anything while they were blasted.

Tanks needed a way to reduce the time stood doing nothing, but the scaling of Det is completely out of whack.

Det4 is attainable in a couple of hours of RvR (12,625rps total if you get this first). Then 26% resists straight out of the box, and 8-24% further in a group and there's 75% total immunity to CC. Add Purge and Prevent Flight at RR4 (i.e. somewhere between 1 and 2 weeks of 'normal' RvR) and pure tanks run rampant.

Remember that 1.50 was the patch that both added RAs and made resists effect CC duration. Then later AE drop-off was added and Det cost was reduced. And back at this time there were very few people that were even RR4 (especially not tanks).

And if you didn't notice, I didn't say remove the RA. I said reduce it's effectiveness to 10% per level, so Det5 is 50% CC immunity instead of 75%. And increase the cost again.

 

[vintervargen]

i think mythic are well aware of the overpowered issues, but they dont care because we still pay them $$. thats what i think.

 

[Riddler]

heh

another 5+ page thread about savages

you do know that crying here wont help shit?

whine less...play more

 

[cougar-]

Originally posted by old.Riddler
heh

another 5+ page thread about savages

you do know that crying here wont help shit?

whine less...play more

it does make the boring days at work less painfull tho.