A Discussion

[Conway]

To me GOA seemed in the unenviable position of the police forced to intervene in a domestic fight. Once someone appeals to them they are forced into it and have to make a judgement call based on the law or in this case the rules of the game which they are probably legally required to stick to. There is no neutral action because either acting or not acting is seen to be taking sides. Whichever side they appear to take they can't win because one side cheer, the other side will not like it, and whatever they do is analyzed to death.

The fundamental problem is the inability of the community to tolerate different views and work together. When a marriage breaks down into warfare the police can't glue it back together, they can only intervene in fights. Given the level of bitterness its hard to see any way to bring the community back together. I'm afraid the conflict became part of the game for some people, and spiralled out of control focussing on anything that arose, such as ac raids. So the community broke down. A lot of people have moved on and will not return because its nicer somewhere that isn't full of conflict. Best to let those still playing whatever the cluster is called now in peace to try and put their house in order.

 

[Arethir]

this isn't an issue that Goa can directly affect - either through policy or new mechanics.

Ok, so basically, no matter what the conclusion of this thread is, and no matter what we say, GoA can't do anything about it, and most likely won't push mythic into doing something about it.?

this is for you not for us.

So, you're thinking, if we just get to have a "calmed down" "talk" about this, we will all be happy again and everything will be ok?

I agree alot with what Sharkith says. Though personally I don't see any hope for this server, as it would need GoA/mythic to actually do something. In the five years or whatever it is I have played this game now, I have not yet, ever, seen any commercial or advertising for this game, anywhere. They don't even sell the game in all the video-game stores. The only way I found out about it was trough an irl friend, who has quit.

We are paying you to give us a game we enjoy playing. Paying YOU, not mythic. I pay my money to GoA, and how big a cut mythic takes of the money, I don't know, and I don't care, cause I'm still paying my money to GoA, and I want them to do something. You have the power to talk to mythic about the situation, so you should do it. You are paying mythic to supply a game your customers like, so you should have a say in mythics decisions.

As for returning to the server, I highly doubt it will happen. Afaik we were kicked from this server the day they handed out the bans.

 

[Zede]

Ok, so basically, no matter what the conclusion of this thread is, and no matter what we say, GoA can't do anything about it, and most likely won't push mythic into doing something about it.?


So, you're thinking, if we just get to have a "calmed down" "talk" about this, we will all be happy again and everything will be ok?

I agree alot with what Sharkith says. Though personally I don't see any hope for this server, as it would need GoA/mythic to actually do something. In the five years or whatever it is I have played this game now, I have not yet, ever, seen any commercial or advertising for this game, anywhere. They don't even sell the game in all the video-game stores. The only way I found out about it was trough an irl friend, who has quit.

We are paying you to give us a game we enjoy playing. Paying YOU, not mythic. I pay my money to GoA, and how big a cut mythic takes of the money, I don't know, and I don't care, cause I'm still paying my money to GoA, and I want them to do something. You have the power to talk to mythic about the situation, so you should do it. You are paying mythic to supply a game your customers like, so you should have a say in mythics decisions.

As for returning to the server, I highly doubt it will happen. Afaik we were kicked from this server the day they handed out the bans.

Well, requiel is out of a job if Nothing is done ?

 

[Arethir]

Well, requiel is out of a job if Nothing is done ?

Why'd you think he's busy visiting the italians?

And wtf I just got a 20% warning for something! Clicking the link it directs me to this thread, but doesn't say which post in it. Though I assume it was the last one...!

 

[Muylaetrix]

If people like Blow, Muylatrix and such, comes to this board and openly say: We wont do this again and we dont condone it anymore and we will actively work against it with informing about the bad sides of it, things can finally settle down and go back to normal and who knows, some players might even return then.

I for myself made the decision NOT to participate in ungodly early RRs anymore months ago. that is a decision i made for myself and i don`t feel the need to impose my opinion on someone else. i can promote it, i can not impose it. i think i left more than one BG i led at around 1 o clock saying stuff like `don`t you lads go take some relic now and make hibbies cry more` over the last 2 months before new year.

All i hear Myulatrix say is, all is fair in war and ok, thats his way of doing things,

last time i said that i was ment to the midgard office hour raiders. night time, office time, it`s all the same. technically they are LEGAL tools.

If they are used as weapons of grievance, eg, if they are used as a statement with the only intent of having a psychological impact on the opponent, something might be wrong.

i`m a roleplayer, i am a wargamer, THIS is the only sort of FPS i play tbh. i never bothered with doom / counterstrike, what no else.

I have used psychology as a tool before from a roleplay and strategic point of view. I have taken BG`s to midgard and hibernia in `retaliation` (lets punish the hibs for taking beno !!) for their `atrocities` in our fronteer.

but yes, too much things are done with no other reason than to grieve and that has to stop.

 

[Shike]

I did of course and I still remain unswayed. This is not about becoming a martyr. I honestly seriously believe the answer is there and I also believe that the people you named can help solve the problem. I also believe those people want to try and see and end to this. Not the kind of shitty end you and others are suggesting is going to happen.

Yes, the answer is there and yes those can help in solving it in a way, but the problem here is, that rely on their goodwill, they have to agree with that it is a bad thing that they have done. Do you really think they are willing to do that? Do you think Muylatrix suddenly will change fundamentally and say that his playstyle isnt working for the UKcluster? I doubt it. If so, they would all have said it already or at least one of them would have. On the contrary, hes stubborn and believe he is right in that he can do whatever he want within the CoC and dont have to care about the endresult at all, he just dont think that far. And he shouldnt really have to do it either in the first place, because thats how any game should be designed, a player shouldnt have to think morally and far ahead and try to predict what his actions will cause, that is for the gamedesigners to spot and fix asap as soon as they see problems, sadly Mythic suck really really bad at just this and well, in the end they are still the responsible. GOA should have taken this seriosly a long time ago too and they havent. Ultimately, the game itself is to blame. When both camps realise this, a solution can be agreed on.

The first principle to solving a community problem is to believe and stick to the belief that the community 'can' actually solve the problem.

Here I agree fully It can be done, if people want to.

I fundamentally disagree with Gahn and others on this. I firmly disagree that this is something GOA can solve. Although I am losing confidence that the solution can be reached but I still fervently believe this can be worked around. I don't think you calling people names helps but I suspect you do it almost to protect yourself from becoming too involved. Your so long in the tooth in this community you read like the grandfather in the corner with his shot gun on his lap. Its nice being a space hobbit isn't it? Away from all this in fighting.

But.. but.. I have to namecall, I have always done it on FH ever since people started to call me an elitist because I refused them groupinvites when we had a FG going already. And naah, I aint afraid of beeing involved really, I have taken my choice and I'm not play on UKcluster anymore. Quite frankly, Im glad I dont play on UKcluster anymore, its nice to do something else, changes are sometimes good

In all earnestness GOA got involved by banning TT. Are you seriously going to tell me with that track racord of intervention that we are honestly going to allow them to become the arbitrators of this situation? Seriously catch a grip folks wake up and do something constructive rather than pointing the finger. The solution is there it is a case of starting to try to find it rather than blameing everyone else around you.

Maybe, the ball is still in the hands of a few people though, a few players. That fact alone is just sad though.

 

[Shike]

sorry muyl, i dont mean to pick on you in particular, replace your name with they/them etc in my previous post, i cant edit it now.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I for myself made the decision NOT to participate in ungodly early RRs anymore months ago. that is a decision i made for myself and i don`t feel the need to impose my opinion on someone else. i can promote it, i can not impose it. i think i left more than one BG i led at around 1 o clock saying stuff like `don`t you lads go take some relic now and make hibbies cry more` over the last 2 months before new year.



last time i said that i was ment to the midgard office hour raiders. night time, office time, it`s all the same. technically they are LEGAL tools.

If they are used as weapons of grievance, eg, if they are used as a statement with the only intent of having a psychological impact on the opponent, something might be wrong.

i`m a roleplayer, i am a wargamer, THIS is the only sort of FPS i play tbh. i never bothered with doom / counterstrike, what no else.

I have used psychology as a tool before from a roleplay and strategic point of view. I have taken BG`s to midgard and hibernia in `retaliation` (lets punish the hibs for taking beno !!) for their `atrocities` in our fronteer.

but yes, too much things are done with no other reason than to grieve and that has to stop.

Repped Muy, nice post. Looks like we're all starting to see things from the same perspective, even if we may have differences in play preference.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

I am aware that some people have cited AC raids as a reason to move to other servers. I'd like to ask those people if they can explain what exactly it was about this issue that made them take that choice? I'd also be interested in hearing other reasons people may have for holding extreme negative views on the topic. Like I said at the top though, keep it civil please.

As usual wise words from you, my respect to the way you keep your cool underfire.

I left after the TT issue brought home to me that the things stopping me from having fun were the over zelous way other people decide the way the game is now heading, which sadly added GOA to the list.

Firstly, this "adding" debate, sorry, being a game of defending and attacking and getting rewards for doing so, I will kill on sight those who oppose me or stand in my way, or to put it simply "if its red its dead!". From time to time I may choose not to finght someone, but in general practice, Ill kill on sight for the prize. Those who beleive extra respect comes from only dueling, soloing, or fighting equals are deluding themselves, wars dont work like that, never have - never will.

The "zerging" is also a crock, I also play with my "friends", else why be in a guild at all. I love the social element of the game, and its inherant grouping, and hence moving as a team or a larger group to acheive a goal. This "dont zerg" attitude has crippled large scale RvR, everyone is afraid to look gimped if they run side by side, take keeps and relics en-mass to acheive a larger goal than just score 1rp more than someone else.

Now to AC raids. I do think there is a degree of skill involved in doing them in small numbers, so hats off to that. However, I also believe its selfish. Those who choose to do this know what affect it has it has on the community, and seem to get more pleasure out of cheesing people off than they do from taking the relics. There is no "I" in team, your realm IS the team and you should all try and benefit it as a whole.

When the TT thing kicked off, it showed how the players truely felt, not just in the enemy realms but even in the home one. In war it does happen that one side can sacrifice an area of battlefield in order to gain something else, in this case, TT surrendered the relic in order to promote more keep taking, improved morale (- especially for the most underpopualted realm!!) and to try and return a balance which has long been way off in Albions favour. To say this contradicted the "spirit of the game" is in my opinion was rubbish, and a poor excuse to be seen to do "something". The player decide the nature of the game, not someones idea of playing God, the decision was taken by a warrior of the realm and his followers, and so it was done. The consequnces of the action taken by GOA should prove how bad a mistake it was, Hibernia turned to dust in minutes, and Midgard gave up and went PvE while a few Albions took advantage and kicked the others while they were down.

I moved to US for several reasons, one was technical and not worthy of mentioning, but my morale at all the issues mentioned here was at an all time low, not just with player mentality but also that of those choosing to play God with the game. Between all of you the servers are crumbling. Sadly over the last 5 years I have watched nice players turn into vein idiots determined to write rules for the rest of us, and insult us when we dont comply. The last few I called fun players moved to the US, so I followed, and to be honest, from what I have seen so far, there is no zerging, adding, ACing whine in sight, in fact they all just seem to want to have fun.

Maybe Ill come back to Euro one day, but at the rate its going only the trumpet blowers will be left, and it will be a remarkably lonely world to return to.

/end ramble...

 

[Kinag]

I for myself made the decision NOT to participate in ungodly early RRs anymore months ago. that is a decision i made for myself and i don`t feel the need to impose my opinion on someone else. i can promote it, i can not impose it. i think i left more than one BG i led at around 1 o clock saying stuff like `don`t you lads go take some relic now and make hibbies cry more` over the last 2 months before new year.



last time i said that i was ment to the midgard office hour raiders. night time, office time, it`s all the same. technically they are LEGAL tools.

If they are used as weapons of grievance, eg, if they are used as a statement with the only intent of having a psychological impact on the opponent, something might be wrong.

i`m a roleplayer, i am a wargamer, THIS is the only sort of FPS i play tbh. i never bothered with doom / counterstrike, what no else.

I have used psychology as a tool before from a roleplay and strategic point of view. I have taken BG`s to midgard and hibernia in `retaliation` (lets punish the hibs for taking beno !!) for their `atrocities` in our fronteer.

but yes, too much things are done with no other reason than to grieve and that has to stop.

That's actually worth a reputation point, however I can't give you

I think this is the first time in ages where I have agreed with you

 

[Kinag]

Firstly, this "adding" debate, sorry, being a game of defending and attacking and getting rewards for doing so, I will kill on sight those who oppose me or stand in my way, or to put it simply "if its red its dead!". From time to time I may choose not to finght someone, but in general practice, Ill kill on sight for the prize. Those who beleive extra respect comes from only dueling, soloing, or fighting equals are deluding themselves, wars dont work like that, never have - never will.

Soloing has nothing to do with earning respect.

The reason I soloed before I quit was the fact that it gave me a challenge, where I had to improve my playstyle over and over again to be able to win, even at low realm rank (ended at 4l4 with my infil).

I could meet the same opponent over and over again and I'd win perhaps twice while he won three.

The fact that it's challenging is what made it fun for me to play, it had nothing to do with respect, I just didn't find it fun to attack someone who was already in a fight.

And, If I decided to add on someone, then most surely they would on add me later on, so it's something that goes in a mutual way.

Now duelling ain't fun, but fighting equals are rather fun as you might either be lucky, or pull of something that the opponent weren't aware of.

 

[Gibbo]

What is clear is people who no longer play the game/server still read FH and therefore GOA need to get creative to entice people back onto the server even if it is for just for a few nights because even if only a fraction of those come back on a more regular basis afterwards then the server will benefit.

Here are some examples, you might think they a crap ideas but I think it is the sort of thing that needs to happen.

For the 8v8 people
Organise tournaments for them, designate a zone (or even better allow level 50's into Cathal Valley, I don't know if you can do this), and let battle commence. The winning group from each realm gets something in return, i.e. free days play, an item from the game etc.

For the 1v1 people
Organising a dueling tournament for them along similar lines to the above.

For the ZergvZerg people
Do a capture the flag event with Relics. Assuming the relics are in their home realm (ok I know they aren't at the moment) do an event where the aim is for each realm to get the relics from the other realm. But make it so Albion has to attack Mid, Mid attack Hib, and Hib attack Alb. I.e. only Alb can remove the Mid relic, Hib loses points for doing that, however there is nothing to stop Hibs from nicking the Mid relic from the Albs. The winning realm is the one with the most enemy relics, keeps and towers at the end of the night. I have a more complete version of this event worked out, this is just an overview.

You could do something inside POC or Darkness Falls, first realm to get to the boss mobs and kill them wins.

However, I do think the current problems are more deep rooted such that running a few events could fix. The issue over off peak raids isn't going to go away (a raid starting in the day/morning resulting in success in primetime is as bad as a raid that starts at 5am in the morning, the success of both raids is dependant on there being few people online at the start of it), the only way it is resolved is by the community policing it and I think TT actions were their way of doing this and GOA shouldn't have intervened. I must add I have no objections to relics being taken in the middle of the night, the game allows it and I don't mind people playing the game within the rules however I wouldn't personally do it myself because I don't think it a very interesting thing to do.

I am someone who logs in, plays the game, logs out. I work during the day so I am a 7pm-11pm player during the week. What happens whilst I am not logged in doesn't really concern me although I have to say I am always slighty disappointed if I log in on the evening and find a load of keeps taken, a relic taken because I know that that was not done in primetime because I find fun in the game not from my realm owning the relics but from defending and attacking them but all I can say is I hope the relics that the Mids currently hold are taken in a primetime raid and not in the middle of the night because I think it will be fun to try and take them.

 

[Darzil]

Repped Muy, nice post. Looks like we're all starting to see things from the same perspective, even if we may have differences in play preference.

My gut feeling is that most of us are in agreement, but in a forum where almost every description of another's playstyle or belief has become a swearword with lots of loaded meaning, it's very hard to discuss in a civilised manner, even without the help of those who want to foster strong feelings.

Darzil

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Soloing has nothing to do with earning respect.

The reason I soloed before I quit was the fact that it gave me a challenge, where I had to improve my playstyle over and over again to be able to win, even at low realm rank (ended at 4l4 with my infil).

I could meet the same opponent over and over again and I'd win perhaps twice while he won three.

The fact that it's challenging is what made it fun for me to play, it had nothing to do with respect, I just didn't find it fun to attack someone who was already in a fight.

And, If I decided to add on someone, then most surely they would on add me later on, so it's something that goes in a mutual way.

Now duelling ain't fun, but fighting equals are rather fun as you might either be lucky, or pull of something that the opponent weren't aware of.

Theres a huge difference between people who solo, and soloers who want to ram their playstyle down your neck claiming its the "honourable way to play megameights!". I was the same when I solod, if I got added on I put it down to experience and moved on, some see this play as "ruining the game", which is twaddle.

Like most, we play for fun, some took it way too seriously, and bullied others out of the game.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

What is clear is people who no longer play the game/server still read FH and therefore GOA need to get creative to entice people back onto the server even if it is for just for a few nights because even if only a fraction of those come back on a more regular basis afterwards then the server will benefit.

Agreed m8!

Here are some examples, you might think they a crap ideas but I think it is the sort of thing that needs to happen.

For the 8v8 people
Organise tournaments for them, designate a zone (or even better allow level 50's into Cathal Valley, I don't know if you can do this), and let battle commence. The winning group from each realm gets something in return, i.e. free days play, an item from the game etc.

For the 1v1 people
Organising a dueling tournament for them along similar lines to the above.

For the ZergvZerg people
Do a capture the flag event with Relics. Assuming the relics are in their home realm (ok I know they aren't at the moment) do an event where the aim is for each realm to get the relics from the other realm. But make it so Albion has to attack Mid, Mid attack Hib, and Hib attack Alb. I.e. only Alb can remove the Mid relic, Hib loses points for doing that, however there is nothing to stop Hibs from nicking the Mid relic from the Albs. The winning realm is the one with the most enemy relics, keeps and towers at the end of the night. I have a more complete version of this event worked out, this is just an overview.

In your words, "crap". Seperating RvR means the problem gets worse, finding fights becomes harder (especially with the low population), the l337 get worse in the way they play and solo will become a thing of the past, all equalling a dead frontier. This method does go against the whole DAoC principle of RvR, which beats any other on the market. Instancing RvR is a definate no win, look at WoW, Guild Wars etc, players loose interest quickly due to how small the PvP is.

 

[Muylaetrix]

There is no "I" in team, your realm IS the team and you should all try and benefit it as a whole.

In war it does happen that one side can sacrifice an area of battlefield in order to gain something else, in this case, TT surrendered the relic in order to promote more keep taking, improved morale (- especially for the most underpopualted realm!!) and to try and return a balance which has long been way off in Albions favour. To say this contradicted the "spirit of the game" is in my opinion was rubbish, and a poor excuse to be seen to do "something".

this seems very contradictory to me.

a) REALM = TEAM

i agree.

B) taking a one sided, heavely disputed stance in a most arrogant fashion where a few unilateraly decide to give up an ingame advantage for the whole realm (from a roleplay point of view : betrayel and treason of the own realm) from a metagaming PoV (lets restore morale in hibernia, so more hibs play, so we have more hibs to kill and more FG to fight against) is not against the SotG ? i don`t get it.

This was the Greatest Breach of the Soth that i have witnessed in the 4.5 years i am playing this game tbh.

Never before had the actions of so few compromised so much for their OWN realm (TEAM) yet.

I guess we`ll never agree on this on :/

for the rest, i agree with almost all the rest of your last 3 posts. very nicely put and worth a rep

 

[old.Whoodoo]

this seems very contradictory to me.

a) REALM = TEAM

i agree.

B) taking a one sided, heavely disputed stance in a most arrogant fashion where a few unilateraly decide to give up an ingame advantage for the whole realm (from a roleplay point of view : betrayel and treason of the own realm) from a metagaming PoV (lets restore morale in hibernia, so more hibs play, so we have more hibs to kill and more FG to fight against) is not against the SotG ? i don`t get it.

This was the Greatest Breach of the Soth that i have witnessed in the 4.5 years i am playing this game tbh.

Never before had the actions of so few compromised so much for their OWN realm (TEAM) yet.

I guess we`ll never agree on this on :/

for the rest, i agree with almost all the rest of your last 3 posts.

I try and look at this not just from the spirit of a game all abotu waring factions, but also from a player PoV, with games like this the two go hand in hand, piss the players off they vacate, keep the majority happy, they stay kinda thing.

Defining the "Spirit of the Game" shouldnt be just down to "KILL THINE ENEMEH OR BE BANNED DAMMIT", but more "its the best for the quality of fun, population, subs and letting people blow each other up in the process".

The true question Req has posed is "whats pissing people enough to make them leave?", and so we answer. The TT execution was one of many things, but indeed for me the icing, the last thing that made me feel like the game here wasnt fun anymore.

 

[Sharkith]

This was the Greatest Breach of the Soth that i have witnessed in the 4.5 years i am playing this game tbh.

Muyl,

you have ignored the comment I gave you earlier - this happens frequently in the US on MYTHIC servers. People drop the keeps all the time to try and inject a change into RvR. No-one gets banned over there for it. Seriously Muly trying to make the game better by injecting fairer play (in the eyes of those involved) is against the SoTG?

That is a seriously incoherent argument.

GOA and you and all the others are at odds with the people who created the game on this one. I have said it several times here and in other threads. You always ignore me - please respond directly to this fact. Mythic do not ban people for doing this.

GOA did it because of the intent behind it - they felt that TT intended to grief everyone else hence why it was a breach - by the definition I gave earlier (which Requiel uses but won't admit to oddly). The PROBLEM was that then Requiel responded to me in a very unfortunate way in the personal discussion by saying he could never see a case when this would not be against the spirit of the game. I told him that he was acting in favour of one side of the community he would not listen. Subsequently you and others used this judgement to beat people up with.

His replies totally knocked me for six because they were so biased.

To Mythic keep lowering is a straw man and we should once and for all see the mistake and all the damage it did. Even old.Whoodoo who plays as you do left because of it.

With due respect both you Requiel and GOA were wrong and you wronged TT. The TT guys felt kicked out of the server as a result of this as they have said in this thread. That is just how damaging it all was.

 

[Kinag]

Theres a huge difference between people who solo, and soloers who want to ram their playstyle down your neck claiming its the "honourable way to play megameights!". I was the same when I solod, if I got added on I put it down to experience and moved on, some see this play as "ruining the game", which is twaddle.

Like most, we play for fun, some took it way too seriously, and bullied others out of the game.

I've never told anyone to "fuck off" if they added on me, I might ask them why or ask them please not to do it with a smiley, I'd never become rude towards them.

I don't force my playstyle upon anyone, and those I fought generally gave me good feedback through FH or IRC (though I was rarely at IRC).

People enjoy different aspects of the game, and they should be allowed to do so.

You don't see people become all crazy cause some prefer to pvp in WoW, and some prefer to raid?

 

[Gibbo]

Agreed m8!

In your words, "crap". Seperating RvR means the problem gets worse, finding fights becomes harder (especially with the low population), the l337 get worse in the way they play and solo will become a thing of the past, all equalling a dead frontier. This method does go against the whole DAoC principle of RvR, which beats any other on the market. Instancing RvR is a definate no win, look at WoW, Guild Wars etc, players loose interest quickly due to how small the PvP is.

Not talking about permenant things, just events that could happen on a one off basis. I am with you, creating instance RvR isn't the good idea.

 

[kirennia]

this seems very contradictory to me.

a) REALM = TEAM

i agree.

B) taking a one sided, heavely disputed stance in a most arrogant fashion where a few unilateraly decide to give up an ingame advantage for the whole realm (from a roleplay point of view : betrayel and treason of the own realm) from a metagaming PoV (lets restore morale in hibernia, so more hibs play, so we have more hibs to kill and more FG to fight against) is not against the SotG ? i don`t get it.

This was the Greatest Breach of the Soth that i have witnessed in the 4.5 years i am playing this game tbh.

Never before had the actions of so few compromised so much for their OWN realm (TEAM) yet.

I guess we`ll never agree on this on :/

for the rest, i agree with almost all the rest of your last 3 posts. very nicely put and worth a rep

Were the english for example in real life war to commit an atrocity (Lets say using biological weapons), we would be kicked out of the european union and most probably be at war with most of the world. We saw AC raids as atrocities of the game world and acted accordingly.

I didn't do it with this roleplaying mindset but this basically sums up my feelings in a different 'language'. How is this not keeping within the spirit of the game? Shouldn't really be quoting you with this but I don't want to read back again and find Requiels posts

 

[Mastade]

People just have to think what they want of this cluster. It was already a rather small cluster before the TT incident, but seriously small now. It was a small community, and in every small community you have to stick together in order to survive so to speak.

We are all in this community, not because we necesarrily like eachother, but because we share one thing: We like to play DAoC. If we can't get along, people are bound leave. We just couldn't get along.

 

[Belisar]

I'm not actually trying to understand the issue for myself. As I've made clear, this isn't an issue that Goa can directly affect - either through policy or new mechanics. I am interested in hearing points of view that haven't been put forward but mostly the point of this thread is to get players to debate the issue calmly without reference to a particular incident that might not be typical of their feelings on the subject as a whole...

Primarily this isn't a post where you explain everything that upsets you to Goa and then we go away and fix that, the main thrust is to get people talking and reaching understandings with each other. ...

If there is something we can fix then I'll also take that away from this thread but mostly this is for you not for us.

I am still bemused. Perhaps I am just being dim.

There have been countless threads about AC raids going back a long way.

We can swap as many points of view as we like from as many people as we like but it all comes down to a simple thing.

Some people AC raided. It annoyed most players.

After a while the AC raids got too much. Even albs who previously AC raided (such as CM) realised and stopped. But a few continued.

TT tried to make a stand and bring back parity. In the view of a lot of people they were unfairly treated as a result. If anything the reaction of GOA made it seem like they were supporting AC raids and had no understanding or thought for those of us who did not like them.

Some who have AC raided (especially recently) have admitted that they did it to annoy a large chunk of the community. I find that quite sad but the game mechanics allowed them to do it.

If you want to fix something then you need to think about how to fix the thing that annoyed most players.

I did not need 16 pages of posts to tell me that.

The one area thing that this thread has done is given me some respect for people here whom I thought were daft, stupid or just plain bonkers because they have been open, honest and in some cases pretty sensible.

So from that point of view the thread has worked but in terms of the game itself I cannot see that it has or will make any sort of difference.

(switches off cynical button)

 

[charmangle]

Hmm...but...

Hmm...but what Muy and Req is missing when it comes to the TT action and the ever shrinking community on the english EU servers, is that in general people do not like to be policed, and even more so when it comes to a private past time that they pay money to enjoy.

We all agree there has to be some rules to abide by, but those rules NEED to be clearly stated in advance...when a good intent, is beeing punished based on a rule that is applicable on anything within the game (a safeguard rule), then people get the feeling that they are paying someone money to boss them around, and not to have fun, so they leave.

And thats what happened to a considereable amount of the RvR active community...

It might not have affected people so deeply if there hadnt been alot of ongoings around it all, but then again the action was brought on by those ongoings also, so to seperate them would be silly...

I know Req really dont want to go into this any more, in my mind that is just common sense. I do think he understands that it was devastating for the english cluster at this point, but its always easy with hinesight. At the time they probably just had several complaints to go by, and an understanable reaction was to give a small "slap on the hand" and ban the one most responsible for 3 days. That would make their point, the rule be stated and everyone happy.

Problem was they made martyrs out of TT. Because their intent was not to disrupt, but to help the game. And in hinesight it would probably have been better to just enter the game override the keep and release it for another guild to claim, but thats not adimittable now. Its to late, and its to little.

In the end what probably was meant to be a kind slap on the hands, to create a precidence, was a hard and maybe final blow to a community in turmoil, that needed guidance and not punishments.

So instead we are trying to create a discussion to avoid things to come to this critical situation again, when the definition of "war" actually spills into the mindset of people, and ingame "attrocities" and counteractions create a to escalating spiral.

In a sociopsychological perspective its, actually interresting to see how a community reacts to different situations, especially like these, and it makes you understand atleast a little better why the world have evolved like it has the last 100 years...

/Charmangle

 

[Bracken]

I told him that he was acting in favour of one side of the community he would not listen. Subsequently you and others used this judgement to beat people up with.

His replies totally knocked me for six because they were so biased.

Does it ever occur to you that you might just have it wrong?

You've said about conspiracy theories, corporate bias and so on - maybe, just maybe, the reality is much simpler. That what you believe to be true isn't? That when logs were checked there really was evidence that the motives of individuals banned (which does not mean TT as a whole) wasn't the same as they claimed subsequently? Who knows - but if you allowed yourself that possiblity then you'd see that at the very least it's about time to let it go.

this basically sums up my feelings

I think the problem you faced Kir is that while your personal (and some others in TT's) motives were entirely genuine and you really were concerned with the whole community, not everyone involved appeared to have the same motives. That view was based on their responses in-game at the time, and on the boards at the time, historically and subsequently - and was really why the whole thing kicked off in the first place.


Anyways, why are we back onto that? Weren't we discussing why people dislike AC raids and whether there were any solutions ?

 

[Sharkith]

Does it ever occur to you that you might just be wrong?

You've said about conspiracy theories, corporate bias and so on - maybe, just maybe, the reality is much simpler. That what you believe to be true isn't? That when logs were checked there really was evidence that the motives of individuals banned (which does not mean TT as a whole) wasn't the same as they claimed subsequently? Who knows - but if you allowed yourself that possiblity then you'd see that at the very least it's about time to let it go.

Bracken read it again.

I said they checked the logs.

There was some evidence to support their actions clearly. I do not dispute the facts of your perception - in fact I can see that the situation probably got out of hand just at the point where people communicated the lowering of the keep. I was not there though so I cannot comment.

What was wrong was the subsequent declaration in my conversation with GOA where they effectiely foreclosed any further attempt to try and make sure that future solutions could be reached. Your confusing the first decision - to ban, with the subsequent response to my question that it would be possible to lower a keep and still remain within the SoTG.

Mythic have allowed people to do this. GOA apparently would not - read back up I have provided you with the evidence of that. I know I probably wasn't clear in that though so thats cool - do you understand what I am driving at now?

 

[charmangle]

Hmm...ive been thinking...

Ive been thinking about this quite abit while the discussions have been going on here.

To me it seems like atleast in some posts people are comming from different perspectives alltogether. I was wondering if this could be because we have people orginally from Prydwen arguing something with people originally from Excalibur.

Im guessing our histories and experiences are quite different?

Im orginally from prydwen, and only played around on excal.

So my point of view is based on the ongoings on prydwen. And to me the prydwen server, felt like it was getting along more, and had a more worked out commong server goal instead of the big arguements between the different realms we are seeing now.

Im not sure if this is the case, but it feels like excalibur has been more divided in general.

When we first got the cluster, there was a HUGE discussion about "mob/encounter stealing", and on Prydwen pretty much everyone in each realm was in agreeance with a common ruleset about this. While the excalibur people seemed to have very strong voices for both sides of the argument.

(Another thing that made me think about this discussion was that for the first time I noticed the those on one side of the arguments wasnt Mainly Midgard players even though it was on a mid section discussion. Which basically was a novelty to me)

/Charmangle

 

[Bracken]

do you understand what I am driving at now?

Yep gotcha now

 

[Sharkith]

Yep gotcha now

I posted that at work and was a bit rushed so it wasn't clear thanks for thinking about it for meh

 

[Straef]

Ooh, free hugs!