1.83b - Wizard and Main healing classes love!

[Bahumat]

Just to clear up a few things.

damage from Battle Master styles is unaffected by celerity

Paladins are officially overpowered now.
That's nonsense and you know it Taunt shout is overpowered in it's current form, and I'd like to see a power cost on the first tick, but overpowered? You're forgetting Paladins haven't had any significant changes since end chant introduction, there are still only two chants that have much use in RvR (2.1 maybe, the magic AA is kinda 'meh'), we still have a rising stat that does almost nothing for us, we still have twisting and all the issues it brings with it, and we still have the joys of double speccing and autotraining. Sure our dps might be better now, but man we have suckass defense if we go 2-handed. My new spec has a whopping 4 Parry

That was written by the ex Paladin TL so its not some random noob who dont know what their talking about.


This post is for anyone stupid enough to say Paladins are officially overpowered now.

 

[Azathrim]

Yes, the taunt shout is really taking the piss on the savages back in the days.

I fail to see how the Paladin defense is much worse than a hero going two-hand. Sure, the hero got Evade 1, but for a 8v8 setup it's damage dealt that matters. The paladin still have extreme AF/Abs which passively negates melee damage.

And were some caster nuking you down? Oops, hit your nostromo to include the resist chant in the cycle, last attacker and hit your insta taunt. Problem solved...

 

[Korax]

From a classic POV:

Mid can make good caster and tank groups. Always been the uber tank realm.
Albs had semi sucky tank groups, but is pretty good now. Has good caster group.
Hib has good caster group, but I think they are slightly behind on tank setups.

Imo. alb has been generally known as underdogs. No more though. Realm balance is getting good. All realms has something the others dont. Don't think for a second that im updated on the toa side though, as toa blows donkey cocks. ;D

 

[Korax]

Having second thoughts about calling hib groups slightly behind. Anyone got an opinion on that?

 

[Darzil]

I fail to see how the Paladin defense is much worse than a hero going two-hand. Sure, the hero got Evade 1, but for a 8v8 setup it's damage dealt that matters. The paladin still have extreme AF/Abs which passively negates melee damage.

Plate has been shown to be around equal to Chain + Evade.

The reason Greggar (Pally TL) pointed out that 2 Handed Pally defence is low is that by the time you've taken 2 handed to 50, chants to 44 (Top Celerity), weapon to 51 composite, if you're pretty high RR (otherwise you can't), you have about 4 parry left over.

Whereas a 2 handed arms, say, can go 50 2 handed, weapon to 51 composite, and 4x parry. (Which is how my armsman tanked Battler in yesterday's arti run and survived)

And were some caster nuking you down? Oops, hit your nostromo to include the resist chant in the cycle, last attacker and hit your insta taunt. Problem solved...

Well, other than the ban, of course.

Darzil

 

[Flimgoblin]

Ugh, x3 CC and 210 delve DD on smiter...no more baseline stun whines please .

range 750

smite changes are somewhat uninspiring but the heals on the smite should be amusing...

accidental healing ftw!

 

[Azathrim]

Plate has been shown to be around equal to Chain + Evade.

The reason Greggar (Pally TL) pointed out that 2 Handed Pally defence is low is that by the time you've taken 2 handed to 50, chants to 44 (Top Celerity), weapon to 51 composite, if you're pretty high RR (otherwise you can't), you have about 4 parry left over.

Whereas a 2 handed arms, say, can go 50 2 handed, weapon to 51 composite, and 4x parry. (Which is how my armsman tanked Battler in yesterday's arti run and survived)

How does a Champion or Thane go higher parry?

Well, other than the ban, of course.

Darzil

As far as I know, the Nostromo is not illigal ... even if you use it to macro chants.

That would be nice to have clarified though.

 

[xxManiacxx]

nostromo is not allowed afaik. Think it was on a grab bag some time ago

 

[Tilda]

As far as I know, the Nostromo is not illigal ... even if you use it to macro chants.

That would be nice to have clarified though.

Its been said repeatily both here and on US.

Nostromo is legal if you use it to bind 1 key to 1 spell, ie, you press a key on the nostromo and it presses "1" on your quickbar, or "sprint" which is bound to space or something.
Nostromo is ILLEGAL if you use it to macro chants, ie, end<pause2secs>celerity<pause2secs>resist<pause2secs>
Doing that will get you banned.

 

[Azathrim]

Its been said repeatily both here and on US.

Nostromo is legal if you use it to bind 1 key to 1 spell, ie, you press a key on the nostromo and it presses "1" on your quickbar, or "sprint" which is bound to space or something.
Nostromo is ILLEGAL if you use it to macro chants, ie, end<pause2secs>celerity<pause2secs>resist<pause2secs>
Doing that will get you banned.

Aha!

Remind me never ever to roll a Paladin. Bloody awful userinterface Mythic did there.

Seriously, they should allow the Paladin to run all chants at once and then balance the class with the assumption they indeed were running all chants at once.

As it is now, a few runs n52 or destroys their arms twisting all chants.

 

[Nate]

Ok to clear something out for you. I PLAY MID. I didnt whine, I just stated that mid has some of the best casters.
A moc3 sm will allways outdamage a moc3 sorc of same RR, due to higher dps and higher dex/qui debuff. Untop of that sorcs dont have intercepting ml9 pet, so your statement is false.
Same for BD. No caster other than WL has access to banelord, insta lt + debuff, so yet again your statement is false.

how was my statement yet again false, if at all, u said how midgard casters are op because we spec for some ra's, which all realms have access to..if u think its so op, spec for it..then whine how midgard get a better ra then u although there identical, as there the same. you've brought in other abilities, which is what i wanted you to do..well done, but my statement wasn't ever false. and oh..yeah i've played albion too a level 20 paladin, i know everything about alb.

 

[Darzil]

How does a Champion or Thane go higher parry?
QUOTE]

Heh - you ask why the defence of a Hero is lower than a 2 handed Paladin, and this is the response !

Had you said Champion or Thane I'd not have said what I said !

Darzil

 

[Azathrim]

Aye Darzil... my fault for bringing the hero into the picture. It is ofcourse only reasonable to compare between counterparts. Ie... the hybrids vs. hybrid and the heavy tank vs. heavy tank.

Problem for Paladins (or more correctly: Armsmen) is that the paladin heavily outperforms albions main tank when it comes to defense.

Unless you specificly need shield swipe, I see little reason to use an armsman.

Ofcourse... paladins outperforms any tank in the "tanking" department.

 

[Maeloch]

range 750 smite changes are somewhat uninspiring but the heals on the smite should be amusing...

accidental healing ftw!

Maybe I was getting a bit carried away, but I did notice the range. All solo PoV ofc: It's not hard to nuke nuke stuff down, stun inside the 750, and finish off with high delve nukes. Normal practice if u want to stop melee IPing for normal nuker. Seems nice solo class with the changes, more than one CC equals tehwin, nm the timer 10mins - can see a smiter taking down multiple stealth with that. That pbaoe heal on nukes is a basically a ghetto lifetap when moccing vs melee...

kk nerdy stuff of no use/interest to proper grp clerics, but it makes it a nice 'battle' line, fun for small scale...why do all lines have to be 100% highend grp rvr opted?

NS for wizzies, I guess nice for them, but can't help but think concept of the class is pure DPS and it should stay that way....mebbe I'm in a minority giving two shits about such ghey things as 'class concepts'...slightly bump delve their damage, give bolt range and/or high radius aoe DD or something in earth line, scaling radius/damage at higher spec - earth wizzie as interrupt bot?...who cares, just not bolting on class defining abilities from cabbies.

Main thing I'm worried about is they'll do something similar to fix mentalism next, GTaoe or somecrap, if they do anything ofc.

 

[Svartmetall]

do you ever stop fucking complaining, every post you make just bitch bitch bitch. try looking on what your own realm has for once?

Your realm seems to be getting given what our realm has in this patch. So I'd just like to see some reciprocity, that's all.

 

[Svartmetall]

So why the fuck aren't you playing Albion?

I play Midgard. Always have done. I have alts in Albion and Hibeasier, but Midgard has always been and will always be my home. If 'change the realms if you don't like the patch notes' is the best advice Midgard can be given (much like what Berserkers were told at the time of the LA meganerf - the direct quote from the then VW TL was "If you don't like it, don't play") then Midgard is in very serious trouble.

Albs could whine (and actually are whining but that's another story ) about insta ae stun, insta ae mezz, 80% intercepting pet, chambers etc. What you want is just to get all the toys other realms have. I know a word for this: envy

I don't want "to get all the toys other realms have" at all - I think homogenising the realms is a very, very bad road to go down. I think giving Albion a superior (now costs zero power at startup, so can be perma twisted with endurance) form of Celerity to Midgard's own - when Celerity was one of the flagship realm-unique abilities of the supposedly Melee Realm - is grossly over the top and will seriously overpower Albion's melee DPS, while Midgard is still given nothing at all to compensate.

If there's anything in Albion and Hibernia that Midgard is genuinely envious of.....it's your nerf immunity. Look at 1.83B - love for Albion, love for Hibernia, nothing for Midgard. Seeing a pattern develop yet?

 

[Svartmetall]

Yes, the taunt shout is really taking the piss on the savages back in the days.

The changes to the taunt shout are a direct slap in the face for Midgard; we were told that the Savage's insta taunt on a 30-second timer was very overpowered (oh, the whining and whining and whining from Albs about it back in the day) so it was taken away as part of the multiple Savage nerfs of 1.65 - the multiple barely-tested nerfs that almost completely killed the class - and replaced with a shitty castable taunt with no casting animation or message to indicate you were casting it, which completely sucks; now Paladins get given a very-fast-reuse insta taunt.


If you cannot see the blatant double standard of this, then you're blind.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Maybe I was getting a bit carried away, but I did notice the range. All solo PoV ofc: It's not hard to nuke nuke stuff down, stun inside the 750, and finish off with high delve nukes. Normal practice if u want to stop melee IPing for normal nuker. Seems nice solo class with the changes, more than one CC equals tehwin, nm the timer 10mins - can see a smiter taking down multiple stealth with that. That pbaoe heal on nukes is a basically a ghetto lifetap when moccing vs melee...

kk nerdy stuff of no use/interest to proper grp clerics, but it makes it a nice 'battle' line, fun for small scale...why do all lines have to be 100% highend grp rvr opted?

I don't do 100% highend rvr opted groups

my main problem with the 750 range is unless I'm MoCing anyone within 750 range will be interrupting me.

seems a bit daft to me that the lesser of our CC (the snare) is on a longer timer than the mezz.

Don't get me wrong - these changes are nice I really like the pbaoe dd change and the heals on smite is cool if a bit nuts

I like the idea of the short range higher damage smite but it's not a good enough spell to sacrifice the versatility I get with 30 rejuv for. Not to mention the amount of time you'll be using the 750 range smite as they run out of range.

Most of my targets if I don't stun them at 1500 range they'll quickcast, interrupt me (or use some instant) and I'll be unable to cast - if it's closing to melee range stun's going to run out before I can do any decent damage from 750 range (or before I get interrupted by charges/taunts/instas).

I can see it being nice for killing a stealther that doesn't purge mezz quick enough - mezz em, stun em, use the 210 smite to kill them faster. But otherwise it's not going to be much use outside of that unless you're MoCing on something close range that doesn't manage to run away.

One thing these changes don't do is give me something to do when I'm outside pbaoe range and interrupted (well the pbaoe heal might do every 20s ) - I have no instant interrupts (outside of item charges), no quickcast. It's not so bad since I've been able to afford MoC3 but before it was terrible.

For non-smiters this love is actually not too bad - that pbaoe snare is the biggest thing for them (and possibly a tiny heal from their pbaoe dd if they spec high enough in smite to get it) though the 10m timer dampens that a bit.

 

[Flimgoblin]

If there's anything in Albion and Hibernia that Midgard is genuinely envious of.....it's your nerf immunity. Look at 1.83B - love for Albion, love for Hibernia, nothing for Midgard. Seeing a pattern develop yet?

I fully expect there to be some more aug healer changes in 1.83... but if not then you might have a point

thing is - the reason midgard gets nerfed so much is because they have had so many stupidly overpowered classes:

stunguard
Pre-nerf zerkers
pre-nerf savages
warlocks

plus you still have some pretty damned powerful classes (along the same level of power as a sorc) - e.g. bonedancer, spiritmaster

If you can't see that you need to get out and get some perspective - I fully admit to being an alb through and through (red-tinted glasses) but I can see how fighting a sorc would be horribly annoying (mainly because fighting a spiritmaster is very similar).

 

[Svartmetall]

thing is - the reason midgard gets nerfed so much is because they have had so many stupidly overpowered classes:

stunguard
Pre-nerf zerkers
pre-nerf savages
warlocks

And those classes have all been gutted by nerfs (oh, you forgot SBs, who were gutted as collateral damage by the LA nerf at the same time as Zerks).

If you can't see that you need to get out and get some perspective - I fully admit to being an alb through and through (red-tinted glasses) but I can see how fighting a sorc would be horribly annoying (mainly because fighting a spiritmaster is very similar).

As I've said before, the way Albs or Hibs felt when they died to pre-nerf Savages/Warlocks/Zerks/Shadowzerks etc....how do you think we feel every time we get killed by Sorcs/Bainshees/Scouts/Vamps/stealth groups with CC/chain-stunning spammable pets etc etc etc? It's just as annoying for us now as it was for you then, the big difference being that your overpowered stuff gets away nerf-free every damn time while ours get a big celeritied 2H nerfbat of doom right in the face.

 

[bigchief]

The changes to the taunt shout are a direct slap in the face for Midgard; we were told that the Savage's insta taunt on a 30-second timer was very overpowered (oh, the whining and whining and whining from Albs about it back in the day) so it was taken away as part of the multiple Savage nerfs of 1.65 - the multiple barely-tested nerfs that almost completely killed the class - and replaced with a shitty castable taunt with no casting animation or message to indicate you were casting it, which completely sucks; now Paladins get given a very-fast-reuse insta taunt.


If you cannot see the blatant double standard of this, then you're blind.

savages lost taunt on an insta shout because people whined that only hybrids should have this, mythic went o ok to stop the, well if a savage is a hybrid then it shouldn't have det, comments.

Not insta cast taunt => not a hybrid = a light tank.

Last time I looked a paladin was still classed as a hybrid

 

[Svartmetall]

savages lost taunt on an insta shout because people whined that only hybrids should have this, mythic went o ok to stop the, well if a savage is a hybrid then it shouldn't have det, comments.

Not insta cast taunt => not a hybrid = a light tank.

Last time I looked a paladin was still classed as a hybrid

Well, it's interesting you should say that. Because if Savages are - as I've always said they are - a light tank, then they should have light tank WS, and not be on the Bard WS table.

 

[Flimgoblin]

As I've said before, the way Albs or Hibs felt when they died to pre-nerf Savages/Warlocks/Zerks/Shadowzerks etc....how do you think we feel every time we get killed by Sorcs/Bainshees/Scouts/Vamps/stealth groups with CC/chain-stunning spammable pets etc etc etc? It's just as annoying for us now as it was for you then, the big difference being that your overpowered stuff gets away nerf-free every damn time while ours get a big celeritied 2H nerfbat of doom right in the face.

Actually, it's not, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any realm has been as stupid as the warlock.

NO TANK OR CASTER in albion or hibernia has ever been doing double the damage they should have.

The only thing that came close was a smite cleric back in ye olde days of no buffbots and no resists - they could stun, mezz, stun, mezz, outcast and outheal entire groups...

and sure enough they got flattened by a nerfbat.

edit:
It's exactly as annoying as it is dying to intercepting pets/insta aoe stun/quad hits/kiting shaman/moc shearing shamen/kiting bonedancers instalifetapping etc. etc.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Well, it's interesting you should say that. Because if Savages are - as I've always said they are - a light tank, then they should have light tank WS, and not be on the Bard WS table.

savages were nerfed (like zerkers) because there were groups consisting of 3 savages, 3 healers, 1 shaman and 1 skald that would sprint around obliterating everything, they were overpowered, and they were rightly nerfed.

If savages suck today - then they need improvements, doesn't meant that past nerfs weren't justified (e.g. smite clerics are hardly a powerhouse but they needed a nerf back in 1.51)

 

[Ryuno]

All I have to say is that this isn't the full patch yet, and as such things could be very different by the end of all parts (I would expect at least C and D ,and maybe more).

I really like the idea that each realm has certain abilties that are unique to that realm. Its a real shame that those are being taken away IMO.

But still, we'll see what happens.

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

I fail to see how the Paladin defense is much worse than a hero going two-hand. Sure, the hero got Evade 1, but for a 8v8 setup it's damage dealt that matters. The paladin still have extreme AF/Abs which passively negates melee damage.

And were some caster nuking you down? Oops, hit your nostromo to include the resist chant in the cycle, last attacker and hit your insta taunt. Problem solved...

Are you playing the same game as me?

1. Heroes are on a higher damage table and have higher WS then a Paladin.

2. Heroes get free IP2.

3. A Pally has to double-spec and will have no defence if he goes 2 Handed. A Hero can spec 50 LW, 42 Shield and still have enough for 39 Parry (50 with +11 from SC).

Care to think again?

 

[Svartmetall]

Actually, it's not, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any realm has been as stupid as the warlock.

I'm sure people in Albion and Hibernia believe that. We feel, conversely, that NOTHING has been as stupid as baseline stun, or spammable bolt-range AE mez, or one realm getting flat out more range for archery than anyone else, or one realm being denied the petspam the other two get, or one realm getting a CCing stealther when nobody else does (effectively grossly overpowering that realm's stealth groups)...it's perspective. Like said, you thought getting one-shotted by a Warlock was grossly overpowered? How the hell do you think we feel when, for example, we lie face down and watch one Sorc drop the rest of our group as well? Or two Bainshees kill several groups of Mids through a fucking wall?

NO TANK OR CASTER in albion or hibernia has ever been doing double the damage they should have.

And now Zerks underperform compared to Mercs and BMs due to the innate mechanics of the class; of course pre-nerf LA damage was over the top, but it got over-nerfed. A 35% damage nerf was also over the top, and they didn't fix anything else about the class, or take away the toys like Flurry which BMs and Mercs were given to bring them up to pre-nerf Zerks' level.
Warlocks never did "double the damage they should have", they did exactly the amount of damage they were designed to - massive frontload, then bugger all for a while. People didn't like getting killed by the massive frontload - because apparently getting killed in 1 second by a Warlock is much worse than getting killed in 2 seconds by an Eldritch - so they whined and whined and whined, and another Midgard class got a huge overnerf.

The only thing that came close was a smite cleric back in ye olde days of no buffbots and no resists - they could stun, mezz, stun, mezz, outcast and outheal entire groups...
and sure enough they got flattened by a nerfbat.

Which Alb players asked for. Smite didn't get nerfed because it was doing too much damage, it got nerfed because Clerics were smiting and not healing.

 

[Puppet]

How does a Champion or Thane go higher parry?

Thanes and Champs dont need to dual-spec.

RR6
Paladin ---> 50 2H, 44 Chants, 35 Slash, 12 Parry
Champion -> 50 LW, 50 Valour, 28 Parry
Thane ----> 50 Weapon, 50 Stormcalling, 28 Parry

(notice I totally negate shield-spec for all 3 here to compare more fair). Only thanes and Champs can spec for slam realistically and deal damage. Paladins cant spec shield and go 2H unless they want to seriously gimp their chants.

As far as I know, the Nostromo is not illigal ... even if you use it to macro chants.

That would be nice to have clarified though.

Pretty sure the use of Nostromo itself aint illegal, but programming it so 1 button on the Nostromo equals more then 1 button in the game is illegal.

Twisting in 'all' chants on a paladin means be OOE during the fight after 2-3 chant-twists. Possibly earlier if he has to sprint aswell to catch his enemies.

 

[Svartmetall]

Thanes and Champs dont need to dual-spec.

RR6
Paladin ---> 50 2H, 44 Chants, 35 Slash, 12 Parry
Champion -> 50 LW, 50 Valour, 28 Parry
Thane ----> 50 Weapon, 50 Stormcalling, 28 Parry

(notice I totally negate shield-spec for all 3 here to compare more fair). Only thanes and Champs can spec for slam realistically and deal damage. Paladins cant spec shield and go 2H unless they want to seriously gimp their chants.

Double-speccing is bullshit, and should go; whatever else I think of Albion, double-speccing is and always has been bullshit. Just make Two-Handed and Pole into standalone 2H lines that depend on their own spec level for damage variance, like Large Weapons or Celtic Spear; Paladins and Armsmen would be 100% sorted then. But if you did that they'd definitely need to lose Celerity.

Thanes can spec for Slam, but if they take Stormcalling as high as they need to to use all its toys effectively, they only have 39 weapon spec, which isn't particularly uber with Thanes' low WS. Champions come out on top in this class comparison.

 

[Tafaya Anathas]

or one realm getting flat out more range for archery than anyone else

Almost in your every post you mention scouts in the op classes because of the additional range they got. How much is it? +160 compared to hunter iirc, 176 with full archery range bonus, amagad, OP!!!! If I would still play I would happily give up this range for dual wield instead of shield or some melee ability.