1.83b - Wizard and Main healing classes love!

[Svartmetall]

Oh and you can stick your "reading comprehension" smart arse remark where the sun don't shine. You cannot make such remarks just because I have a different point of view. I'm putting forward my opinion in a cogent and polite fashion. You would do well to learn to do the same.

You said "Who said anything about giving sorcs more toys?", when I was merely stating that the overpoweredness of the Sorc proved that AE CC on a damage caster was a bad idea and had not in fact suggested giving Sorcs anything at all. So my statement is accurate. And telling people to stick things where the sun don't shine is an interesting definition of 'polite'.

 

[Konstantin]

someone fill me in?hibs and albs are moaning about SBs?? ye worst assasin class ever gets some love and evryone cryes.. cmon.now is the time to prove yore skilled players,and not just fotm roller´s.xD maby you dont have to whine abuot 2-3-400 sbs killing you maby now they dare to go 1 vs 1 ?

 

[old.windforce]

hehe 8L6 cleric with 45 smite, 27 enhance and MoC3 inc

 

[Andrilyn]

maby now they dare to go 1 vs 1 ?

Like that will ever happen

 

[Vladamir]

Like that will ever happen

They can just read your guide to pro leeching on www.hax2max.com instead?

 

[Lyrra]

You said "Who said anything about giving sorcs more toys?", when I was merely stating that the overpoweredness of the Sorc proved that AE CC on a damage caster was a bad idea and had not in fact suggested giving Sorcs anything at all. So my statement is accurate. And telling people to stick things where the sun don't shine is an interesting definition of 'polite'.

I said: "That aoe stun would be great fun for ice wizzies."

To which you replied:
"I would hope Mythic would have learned from the example of the Sorc...powerful AE CC on a damage caster is a bad idea."

You made the incorrect assumption that I was asking for aoe stun on a damage caster. Wrong. In the same way healers do the stunning FOR sms to pbaoe, I was meaning that someone (not pointed out who) would do the stunning FOR ice wizzies.

I stand by my politeness comments. When you make remarks like "reading comprehension for the win", it smacks of arrogance and you don't deserve a polite response. It is particularly rich considering you didn't comprehend my post in the first place and read it as a request for damage caster love. If something was unclear, I would have more respect for you if you asked for clarification rather than resorting to the childish "for the win" mentality.

 

[Puppet]

FK pierce then? just respec slash as NS. neutral to albs. +damage to SB's
if SB is fighting with crush ability up you will have an equal fight, or you don't want that?

Basically you say what I said --> Pierce NS is totally gutted. An equal fight? No off-evade stun, no Phoebus Necklace, no artifically improved HP, lacking 30 STR/CON if Im fighting a NorseSB, inferiour dualwield-mechanics (not that big of a deal as envenoming isnt something u will see much when Remedy vs Remedy). Ironically I think in 1.80 it is (was) more balanced then it will be in 1.82. We will see, however Pierce is dead. It just has too little advantage over the disadvantages :S

YES!!! 10 con more! think 99% of the SB's would trade 10con in for 2.5spec points

30 con 30 str and artifically inflated HP compared to a NS. But I bet someone will say how the instaDD and the instaDoT and the uber-dmg shield will make all that up and more xD

Anyhow, as I said its not balance, its just shifting balance. From being argueably worst assassin, SB's are now the best without doubt. Anyone supporting this patch when it comes to Assassin vs. Assassin-balance isnt in favour of balance, just wants another class to be the top-assassin.

Another thing is that suddenly 1vs1 performance was a major guideline in balancing the assassins. How about balancing all classes instead of leaving classes like the BD untouched. And at the same time giving another class basically I-Win versus any melee (thane).

Oh well, I guess nobody understands Mythic, and Mythic doesnt understand their game ....

 

[Jobbegea]

Oh well, I guess nobody understands Mythic, and Mythic doesnt understand their game ....

with that opinion you find that out after 3 years.
don't like it. just quit?

you problaly crying tears cause your NS class is on par with the rest now instead of fkn overpowered

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Who said anything about giving sorcs more toys? I'd put aoe stuns in one of the elementalist earth lines.

Anyway, sorc still have to cast aoe mezz - insta >> casting. There's no way anyone could defend albion having the upper hand in the CC war.

That is a matter of opinion.

400+ DEX (1.5s cast time), 2035 target range (1635 to 2435 effective range) spell

Insta versus 1650 target range (1350 to 1950 effective range)

Seeing as clip range is a lot further than 2435, any sorc worth his salt will have his mezz already off before the healer can get into range. The healer needs the element of suprise.

Comparing them is not as easy as saying one is better than the other. They both have very strong positive sides, and to be honest, I wouldn't even mind handing you the insta in exchange for the spell you get.

This particular horse has been beaten so much there isn't a whole left of it. It's a very clear case of "The grass is always greener.." - sorcs are jealous of the insta (heh), whereas healer can't imagine why Mythic would give CC of this caliber to a class that already is a primary damage dealer.

Oh, well. The show must go on. No doubt an alb will jump in to downplay the bonusses.

 

[Flimgoblin]

sprinting on speed 6 over a hill - insta's far better

if you have a clear line of sight (or 3rd party tools) sorc mezz is better

if you're somewhere enclosed it's not.

Equal but different imo.

 

[Andrilyn]

Prefer Sorcs mez as with 50% resists and no Stocism(sp?) and Det a Bard/Healer insta will last 5-8 seconds (don't know the exact time but it starts flashing right away) will not even want to know how long it lasts on someone with Det and/or Stocism.
Healers and Bards do need the insta though as compared with a sorc they are 40+ dex behind (combined with lesser range Mez) and if they didn't have it they would basically lose every single mez battle.

 

[Konah]

Having second thoughts about calling hib groups slightly behind. Anyone got an opinion on that?

would say hibs are very close to mids now, its pretty much hib=mid>alb

hibs n mids still have the edge on casted interrupts and demezz among other things (assuming 2xbard setup)

 

[Shike]

someone fill me in?hibs and albs are moaning about SBs?? ye worst assasin class ever gets some love and evryone cryes.. cmon.now is the time to prove yore skilled players,and not just fotm roller´s.xD maby you dont have to whine abuot 2-3-400 sbs killing you maby now they dare to go 1 vs 1 ?

It's not just "some" love.. its over the top.

SB's have more hits, better race, PHN, best damagetype vs both assassins, offevadestun, add a crazy fkin PAdamage aswell as BS2damage with 2h that is way over the top in 1,82. Casters are just fodder for SBs that can land PA or BS2 (read this as, VERY easy RPfarming.. its not even funny), oh and SB with SL up and a 2h crushwep, there is no chanse at all, whatsoever to recover from that hit. The only real downside is that SBs have to use either 2 charges regularly or 2 bots. I would hate this but it is doable.

SlashNS is just.. gimped, without the overpowering remedy pre 1.82 NS might aswell just accept that they will loose more than they will win vs SBs, nomatter what they do. Far too low str and no proper stunstyle unless you strafeabuse and also lot less hitpoints and no damagesoaker a'la PHN means.. death more than winning, end of story.

Infils can stand a better chanse since they have access to better races for slash, they also lack a stun but they can at least specc better than any other assassin, granted this doesnt matter THAT much but it matters. Infils have always been good and will continue to be good, it's just that SBs is better after 1.82.

Imo, a stunstyle off evade should be added in CSline at a semilow specc, like 24 or so, 5s duration then remove all the other stunstyles for assassins. Then remove the new remedy from all stealthers (I hate the fact that this BSability only works vs assassins, and it also actually negates a whole fkin speccline assassins specc, its BS), give NS a small WSbuff similar to what Vamps have (only just enough to offset the difference in stats) and I think thats pretty much it, it should be quite balanced then. All assassins have the possibility to damage each others with the most damaging damagetype, no fkin BSremedy, SBs have alil more hits and 2h, infils have more speccpoints, NS have nifty utilitymagic (adjust the spells so they match properly in damage), as it should be, imo ofc.

 

[Cylian]

You're just forgetting that SBs are still vulnerable to the most common melee damage type: Slash!
And our Champion Weapons won't debuff crush damage. You're really missing out some great fun... like fighting with 6% effectiv resists.
Bludgeon only lasts 30secs, while pretty much everyone can have slash damage available at all times.
Try to consider what kind of resists a SB faces pretty much every fight, especially with the CL resists buffs.

 

[Puppet]

You're just forgetting that SBs are still vulnerable to the most common melee damage type: Slash!
And our Champion Weapons won't debuff crush damage. You're really missing out some great fun... like fighting with 6% effectiv resists.
Bludgeon only lasts 30secs, while pretty much everyone can have slash damage available at all times.
Try to consider what kind of resists a SB faces pretty much every fight, especially with the CL resists buffs.

Suppose you're facing same resists as my Pierce Nightshade.

And for Jobbegea: Perhaps you can enlighten me how my Pierce NS is so fucking overpowered at the moment. You probably can come up with only Remedy.

Ive never been a big fan of the Remedy-RA, ofcourse when you are forced to get it, you use it. Ive always said I would prefer another RR5 RA over Remedy. Something which helps me kill anything else besides INF/SB.

The majority of INF/SB where furious over Remedy, and it was soooo OP. Now instead of removing it from Nightshades, giving us something useful, they just gave the OP Remedy to all 3 of us. Its the totally the wrong approach Mythic took.

Its like 'Ok, 4 sec insta-lifetap on BD is overpowered, so we give it to all mages in all 3 realms, there.. but it only works against enemy casters!'.

Argueably Nightshades where the strongest assassins in 1.80, however giving Remedy to all 3 isnt balanced. Its just shifting the balance when you see what SB's got (and keep).

 

[eggy]

That is a matter of opinion.

400+ DEX (1.5s cast time), 2035 target range (1635 to 2435 effective range) spell

Insta versus 1650 target range (1350 to 1950 effective range)

Seeing as clip range is a lot further than 2435, any sorc worth his salt will have his mezz already off before the healer can get into range. The healer needs the element of suprise.

Comparing them is not as easy as saying one is better than the other. They both have very strong positive sides, and to be honest, I wouldn't even mind handing you the insta in exchange for the spell you get.

This particular horse has been beaten so much there isn't a whole left of it. It's a very clear case of "The grass is always greener.." - sorcs are jealous of the insta (heh), whereas healer can't imagine why Mythic would give CC of this caliber to a class that already is a primary damage dealer.

Oh, well. The show must go on. No doubt an alb will jump in to downplay the bonusses.

Sorc mez, head on, is superior (although every hib group has SOS)...

However, come over a ridge, around a hill, from water, into water etc etc...insta >> cast. Simple.

It would be nice to have an insta-option, on a smaller radius and lower duration perhaps.

 

[Golena]

Sorc mez, head on, is superior (although every hib group has SOS)...

However, come over a ridge, around a hill, from water, into water etc etc...insta >> cast. Simple.

It would be nice to have an insta-option, on a smaller radius and lower duration perhaps.

The thing everyone forgets about when talking about this is the insta is up once every 10 minutes. That means assuming your average fights lasts around 2 mins that your running about 80% of the time without it up. Playing a healer i'd say the insta is up a max of 50% of the time I enter a fight.

While the insta mezz might well beat the cast mezz alot of the time, half the time it's going to be a cast war and the sorc is going to win every single time. The times the sorc does win mezz they also get a proper mezz on the group instead of the rather low duration on the insta one.

This is all assuming the group your fighting doesn't split properly on inc which means it's going to take at least 2 or 3 mezzes to actually get them all. I used to think the insta's were way overpowered, then I actually tried playing with them and realised very quickly that while they are very powerful, they arn't the insta win tool I always used to believe they were when I was playing alb.

There's more to look at than just a mezz spell however. Mids and hibs have other advantages that probably balance it out, the fact they can more easily fit in chars with all 6 resists, insta pbaoe disease, etc. So just comparing 2 classes isn't that important at the end of the day.

 

[Shike]

You're just forgetting that SBs are still vulnerable to the most common melee damage type: Slash!
And our Champion Weapons won't debuff crush damage. You're really missing out some great fun... like fighting with 6% effectiv resists.
Bludgeon only lasts 30secs, while pretty much everyone can have slash damage available at all times.
Try to consider what kind of resists a SB faces pretty much every fight, especially with the CL resists buffs.

yea but Cylian but you also forget that if a NS or infil specc slash to do solid damage on SBs.. we loose one VERY vital component, namely a solid usable stun. You also dont calculate with PHN which is very much Iwin. You also dont calculate with 2h PAs from SLs which generates a lot of RPs from easymode farming casters and other classes. You also dont calculate with the better stats a Norse actually get. There is alot you just neglect and refuse to accknowledge as benefits for SBs in general.

PierceNS is just shit vs bludgeonSB, Im gonna have to respecc my NS to be able to kill SBs, and just specc purge3 to offset the fact I aint gonna get a stun then. Its not that fun but I'll get along anyway since there are so many SBs out there that just suck, the good ones I go toe to toe with now will just push me around and I wont even be a hard opponent for them to beat

At least its easy to do slashtemplates! haha

 

[Azathrim]

yea but Cylian but you also forget that if a NS or infil specc slash to do solid damage on SBs.. we loose one VERY vital component, namely a solid usable stun.

It's a stun, second in chain. You got a side stun as a NS... seems fair. Only slash infils might have a reason to complain there.

You also dont calculate with PHN which is very much Iwin.

The damage absorbed typically equals 1-2 procs off SoM. Remember, the PHN comes at a cost. Namely going from a 80uv necklace to a 16uv necklace. That's a high cost, which you can use to have better resists that always are up, and not just 5/15 minutes.
But nonetheless, I wouldn't care if they removed PHN from SB's. It's not going to be a crutch to balance the class on.

You also dont calculate with 2h PAs from SLs which generates a lot of RPs from easymode farming casters and other classes.

DPS of 2h PA's equals that of CD/DW/LA PA's. They didn't improve 2h pa's to be better than normal PA's, they made it equal in damage. Do the math yourself if you don't belive me.

You also dont calculate with the better stats a Norse actually get.

That's norse SB's. What about the Kobolds? And... norse is close to briton in stats. For the NS, you have magic in various forms. Magic that have been calculated to just about equal out the HP difference in the course of a fight.

PierceNS is just shit vs bludgeonSB, Im gonna have to respecc my NS to be able to kill SBs, and just specc purge3 to offset the fact I aint gonna get a stun then. Its not that fun but I'll get along anyway since there are so many SBs out there that just suck, the good ones I go toe to toe with now will just push me around and I wont even be a hard opponent for them to beat

How do you know? Have you tried it? The american nightshades whined as much as you and puppet do. Then, after having played for a couple of weeks actually admitted things weren't as bad as they in their eternal whine had attempted to make it out to be. Ofcourse, certain people will always whine, but to be frank it seems like things are getting a bit more equal now.

There's still room for improvements though. Forinstance equal access to spec buffs across the realms. I for one would certainly prefer not having to run two buffbots to get what my opponents have in one. But let's hope 1.83 fixes that.

 

[Shike]

gah, quote'o'rama inc! :/

It's a stun, second in chain. You got a side stun as a NS... seems fair. Only slash infils might have a reason to complain there.

This actually means that you assume that every single NS out there strafeabuse to land that stun, I personally dont, and its wrong to do so in my book. NS and ranger shouldnt even have the stuncomponent on IceStorm in the first place and I hope they sort this out some day.

The damage absorbed typically equals 1-2 procs off SoM. Remember, the PHN comes at a cost. Namely going from a 80uv necklace to a 16uv necklace. That's a high cost, which you can use to have better resists that always are up, and not just 5/15 minutes.
But nonetheless, I wouldn't care if they removed PHN from SB's. It's not going to be a crutch to balance the class on.

Ok, I've fought quite alot of SBs with PHN up and running and tbh, its like hitting a paladin. Some people have the playstyle where they rely on wincards and it works for them, run 5mins and go hide awhile, then go back and try finding fights. 33% of the RVRtime with PHN up and running isnt bad at all, especially since it works against all meleeclasses aswell.

DPS of 2h PA's equals that of CD/DW/LA PA's. They didn't improve 2h pa's to be better than normal PA's, they made it equal in damage. Do the math yourself if you don't belive me.

No. Wrong and I dont need to do maths to get it confirmed for myself, Ive faced this myself and it is nowhere near. 1195BS2 from a kibiSB was the last hit I got on my eldie before I decided to shelve him until SB's PAs and BS2's get toned down. You think any infil or NS can put out that damage? Seriosly, they cannot. Infils can PA hard, SBs can PA harder, end of story, I dont see infils oneshotting casters to the left and right, yet it happens when SBs PA if they put on a good crit on the PA. This just isnt funny at all, its awful and Mythic need to sort this out asap. When 1.82 hits EU and the good SBs decide to go to town with 2h you will see what Im talking about. The crappy SBs will still be crappy.. and god knows it exists a ton of those, its not those i bother with, the good ones will be horrible though.

That's norse SB's. What about the Kobolds? And... norse is close to briton in stats. For the NS, you have magic in various forms. Magic that have been calculated to just about equal out the HP difference in the course of a fight.

And.. look at hibb, we have elf.. or luris to choose from, you are aware of the fact that this means, 40str nomatter what we do? Are you aware of the fact that I on my NS need 59qui in the temp to cap out qui aswell, with this I mean that: I have absolutely no benefit at all from the high qui either. Woopidoo. I wouldnt complain if we could choose celt or Shar for NS. And im seriosly so tired of ppl bringing up NS DDs in comparison to SBs (read Norse here about the stats.. If ppl want to stick with a kibbi when there is something better around, then so be it, but at least Mids have an option which it all really is about) higher HP aswell as Weaponskill thanks to superior stats. Higher hits and WS at all times does not equal out to a shitty DD that is affected by AoM (which most assassins with half a brain buys) and also get resisted quite abit. Put up a Norse SB and do a direct comparison in stats with equal statcaps and you will see a quite massive difference actually. Thats just how it is. If you really think some crappy magic that also chew important endurance is equally good then you are alittle bit offtrack in my opinion. Its a dead horse anyway so lets just leave it shall we..

How do you know? Have you tried it? The american nightshades whined as much as you and puppet do. Then, after having played for a couple of weeks actually admitted things weren't as bad as they in their eternal whine had attempted to make it out to be. Ofcourse, certain people will always whine, but to be frank it seems like things are getting a bit more equal now.

Im sad to say this is mostly because US lack one thing, and thats good players. The quality of RVR over there isnt as good as it is here, I ran with my infil to check things out and the result of 1.82 is quite funny, it didnt make SBs go more solo since they are more solocapable, its just way way more SBs that play now, I went with my merc 1h to solo some for fun and during this hour I got zerged by 3! different full groups of SBs Thats how the stealthers in US play, 99% or more and the scary thing is that I aint joking. There is a ton of better players in EU and when you put the SBs capability in the hands of a player like Hugmeh or Echion.. the true result will shine through when we talk about potential in a class like the SB. I will still make RPs, I will still kill SBs, but not because I have an equal potential DPS or defense, it will be because of luck or a worse player. An equally geared SB > Inf > NS. This is easy to test aswell which I will try to do once 1.82 hits. First just do a comparison in stats, then make sure you have same swingspeed and just compare straight DPS on same resist. Then take DPS vs defense into play and a result will be produced. Im sure of the result but some testing doesnt hurt

There's still room for improvements though. For instance equal access to spec buffs across the realms. I for one would certainly prefer not having to run two buffbots to get what my opponents have in one. But let's hope 1.83 fixes that.

Here I agree (wow), buffing is an old issue that should be sorted out somehow, Im annoyed when I play mid and have to doublecharge if I go solo since I dont have a healerbot. ChargeTimers are annoying etc but it is doable, but its too much hassle with it and it should be more userfriendly. However, I doubt Mythic will fix this anytime soon.

PS: dont add on me please man, I really try very very hard to strictly solo and not add unless its Aholes.. let me finish fight and then fight ok

 

[bigchief]

The damage absorbed typically equals 1-2 procs off SoM. Remember, the PHN comes at a cost. Namely going from a 80uv necklace to a 16uv necklace. That's a high cost, which you can use to have better resists that always are up, and not just 5/15 minutes.
But nonetheless, I wouldn't care if they removed PHN from SB's. It's not going to be a crutch to balance the class on.

Last time I fought someone with PH up it absorbed about 1400damage.

That sadly is not an exaggeration

 

[Dracus]

I like all this QQing at SBs might just start playing mine again

Assasin OP'dness moves in cycles, its SBs time again...next will prolly be Inf(1.84? ).

You may not agree, you may not like it. I calls em as I sees em (whale biologist! - For you futurama fans )

/Dracus

 

[Azathrim]

Last time I fought someone with PH up it absorbed about 1400damage.

That sadly is not an exaggeration

Let me guess, it absorbed your PA chain?

 

[xxManiacxx]

Imo they should remove PH. But I think they are using PH as a argument not to give mids specc AF.

 

[Azathrim]

gah, quote'o'rama inc! :/

Yeah, nerf! Give option to auto quote all paragraphs!

This actually means that you assume that every single NS out there strafeabuse to land that stun, I personally dont, and its wrong to do so in my book. NS and ranger shouldnt even have the stuncomponent on IceStorm in the first place and I hope they sort this out some day.

Matter of fact is though, that NS/Ranger do have access to the side stun and do use it in fights. That you chose not to is your choise, but doesn't change the fact stealthers use it.

Ok, I've fought quite alot of SBs with PHN up and running and tbh, its like hitting a paladin. Some people have the playstyle where they rely on wincards and it works for them, run 5mins and go hide awhile, then go back and try finding fights. 33% of the RVRtime with PHN up and running isnt bad at all, especially since it works against all meleeclasses aswell.

As I said, no doubt that PHN is powerfull. I also said I wouldn't mind if it was removed from SB's (or alternatively given to infil/ns). So, shall we leave that sub-subject alone as it doesn't appear we can progress much further there, eh?

No. Wrong and I dont need to do maths to get it confirmed for myself, Ive faced this myself and it is nowhere near. 1195BS2 from a kibiSB was the last hit I got on my eldie before I decided to shelve him until SB's PAs and BS2's get toned down. You think any infil or NS can put out that damage? Seriosly, they cannot. Infils can PA hard, SBs can PA harder, end of story, I dont see infils oneshotting casters to the left and right, yet it happens when SBs PA if they put on a good crit on the PA. This just isnt funny at all, its awful and Mythic need to sort this out asap. When 1.82 hits EU and the good SBs decide to go to town with 2h you will see what Im talking about. The crappy SBs will still be crappy.. and god knows it exists a ton of those, its not those i bother with, the good ones will be horrible though.

This is some test data puppet helped get with his easy access to a test server. It's not a 100% waterproof test ofcourse, but with the limited time put in, it's rather suitable and gives a fair picture of the situation. This is taken from this thread.

Cap DPS of PA = Cap Damage / Weapon Delay

So let us take an example (taken from a test character on a test server, but in no way a general example).

Nightshade:
MH delay: 4.2
OH delay: 3.4

MH swing time: 1.9
Duel swing time: 1.7
(ie, if only MH swings it's a 1.9 delay, otherwise a 1.7 delay)

MH Cap: 903
OH Cap: 192

MH swing dps: (903 / 1.9) = 475
Duel Swing dps: (1095 / 1.7) = 644

On the assumption that the NS have enough CD to swing off-hand 50% (EDIT: Which was the case in the above example) of the time, we can now calculate:

Average CD PA cap dps: ( 644 + 475 ) / 2 = 559


Let us now look at the Shadowblade using a 5.7 delay weapon.

Cap 2H: 1419

2H dly: 5.7

2H swing: 2.54

2H swing dps: 559

----

In summary, yeah, that seemed pretty much to equal out. If you still don't belive the figures, feel free to set up a test with various specs equipment options.

And.. look at hibb, we have elf.. or luris to choose from, you are aware of the fact that this means, 40str nomatter what we do? Are you aware of the fact that I on my NS need 59qui in the temp to cap out qui aswell, with this I mean that: I have absolutely no benefit at all from the high qui either. Woopidoo. I wouldnt complain if we could choose celt or Shar for NS.

You only need 59 qui in template to cap. That means you have extra space to spellcraft other stats in. So, the argument goes both ways on the benefit / disadvantage of high starting quickness.

And im seriosly so tired of ppl bringing up NS DDs in comparison to SBs (read Norse here about the stats.. If ppl want to stick with a kibbi when there is something better around, then so be it, but at least Mids have an option which it all really is about) higher HP aswell as Weaponskill thanks to superior stats. Higher hits and WS at all times does not equal out to a shitty DD that is affected by AoM (which most assassins with half a brain buys) and also get resisted quite abit. Put up a Norse SB and do a direct comparison in stats with equal statcaps and you will see a quite massive difference actually. Thats just how it is. If you really think some crappy magic that also chew important endurance is equally good then you are alittle bit offtrack in my opinion. Its a dead horse anyway so lets just leave it shall we..

So you are suggesting high rank kobold shadowblades that have played the last 3-4 years to reroll? How absurdly arrogant of you!

Nonetheless, you have actually have utility with the DD's, your damage shield and your dot. It's nice for kiting enemies forinstance. If I run and try to do a kite+pa setup I don't bother against a NS. I simply annot restealth while having the combat timer triggered by the DD.

Anyways, the magic do damage. Supposedly it actually does so much damage as to more or less equal out the hp difference. If you don't like it, perhaps take your own advice to the kobold SB's and reroll to a norse SB....

Im sad to say this is mostly because US lack one thing, and thats good players. The quality of RVR over there isnt as good as it is here, I ran with my infil to check things out and the result of 1.82 is quite funny, it didnt make SBs go more solo since they are more solocapable, its just way way more SBs that play now, I went with my merc 1h to solo some for fun and during this hour I got zerged by 3! different full groups of SBs Thats how the stealthers in US play, 99% or more and the scary thing is that I aint joking. There is a ton of better players in EU and when you put the SBs capability in the hands of a player like Hugmeh or Echion.. the true result will shine through when we talk about potential in a class like the SB. I will still make RPs, I will still kill SBs, but not because I have an equal potential DPS or defense, it will be because of luck or a worse player. An equally geared SB > Inf > NS. This is easy to test aswell which I will try to do once 1.82 hits. First just do a comparison in stats, then make sure you have same swingspeed and just compare straight DPS on same resist. Then take DPS vs defense into play and a result will be produced. Im sure of the result but some testing doesnt hurt

I haven't played on the US servers, but I am starting to see a trend in all your argumentation. A mindset that you apparently share with puppet. Basicly anyone that is not in your realm sucks. As suchs, the level of argumentation is down the drain and you really don't have much to hold it in when you display suchs naivity as to belive it's because "they suck".

PS: dont add on me please man, I really try very very hard to strictly solo and not add unless its Aholes.. let me finish fight and then fight ok

Was that directed at me? I don't recall having added on any 1v1 fight in ages (with the sole exeption of puppet, whom I still have quite a few adds to pay favour in return on).

 

[Arkian]

The thing everyone forgets about when talking about this is the insta is up once every 10 minutes. That means assuming your average fights lasts around 2 mins that your running about 80% of the time without it up. Playing a healer i'd say the insta is up a max of 50% of the time I enter a fight.

While the insta mezz might well beat the cast mezz alot of the time, half the time it's going to be a cast war and the sorc is going to win every single time. The times the sorc does win mezz they also get a proper mezz on the group instead of the rather low duration on the insta one.

This is all assuming the group your fighting doesn't split properly on inc which means it's going to take at least 2 or 3 mezzes to actually get them all. I used to think the insta's were way overpowered, then I actually tried playing with them and realised very quickly that while they are very powerful, they arn't the insta win tool I always used to believe they were when I was playing alb.

There's more to look at than just a mezz spell however. Mids and hibs have other advantages that probably balance it out, the fact they can more easily fit in chars with all 6 resists, insta pbaoe disease, etc. So just comparing 2 classes isn't that important at the end of the day.

The other thing that it's easy to forget is that a Paccer's insta aoe mezz is pretty much always 150 radius unless they want to totally feck up thier healing ability.

 

[Puppet]

---

In summary, yeah, that seemed pretty much to equal out. If you still don't belive the figures, feel free to set up a test with various specs equipment options.

When I gave you those numbers on IRC, I already said I dont agree with the 'DPS-term' in your story.

Also you seem to totally ignore the fact that in your 'DPS'-numbers, both the initial damage and the swing-delay. While these numbers here seem to illustrate you have equal 'DPS', that's just a mere coincidence. If I took a hypothetical Two-Hander with the same speed as the used One-Hander (eg. a 4.2 Speed Two-Hander, I dont know if this exists in Mid), you would get an approximate 20% 'DPS' higher on the SB. Simply because the 2H gives an inherent 20-25% higher damage-cap. Weaponspeed itself has no big impact on PA-cap, thereby the results are skewed for the SB (to a lower DPS), because you slow your swingspeed much more then it gives you a proportional higher damage-cap.

Remember --> PA-cap : Base-damage + a fixed number depending on your CS-skill and your style-bonusses. An additional multiplier is added to the 2H for SB's, iirc. it was like 1.20 or 1.25 (cba looking up the numbers again).

Basically what Im saying: The numbers I pulled off the testserver are valid, however your 'DPS'-calculation is totally skewed due to the slow 2H'er. If you would take a 4.2 spd 2Hander, your dps would be alot higher.

Nonetheless, you have actually have utility with the DD's, your damage shield and your dot. It's nice for kiting enemies forinstance. If I run and try to do a kite+pa setup I don't bother against a NS. I simply annot restealth while having the combat timer triggered by the DD.

Damage-shield is actually bad for kiting. If I do a Garotte, then run off to kite, and the enemy hits me just once, the damage-shield breaks his Garotte-snare. The DoT does the same thing, next tick it breaks the Garotte-snare. Now you can say i should use a snare-poison, which is true, but it also requires either mainhand-switching or luck with the RND if I want to do it with the offhander.

Anyways, the magic do damage. Supposedly it actually does so much damage as to more or less equal out the hp difference. If you don't like it, perhaps take your own advice to the kobold SB's and reroll to a norse SB....

Except more HP cant be resisted, and doesnt take endurance.

A mindset that you apparently share with puppet. Basicly anyone that is not in your realm sucks. As suchs, the level of argumentation is down the drain and you really don't have much to hold it in when you display suchs naivity as to belive it's because "they suck".

? Seems to me by throwing out random insults you're the one lowering 'the level of argumentation'. I actually took the time to take out the numbers from the NS and SB, instead of making up random bullshit. I said multiple times I didnt agree with ur 'DPS'-numbers simply because in your definition you totally go by the numbers, but fail to realise (on purpose? It favours SB's xD) that you can artificially increase the SB's 'DPS' by using a faster twohander. To a number above NS/INF 'dps' that is.

 

[Shike]

Matter of fact is though, that NS/Ranger do have access to the side stun and do use it in fights. That you chose not to is your choise, but doesn't change the fact stealthers use it.

Ok, so you think strafeabusing to land a sidestun is a fine method to achieve proper balance. I do not agree at all. I just wont do it.

As I said, no doubt that PHN is powerfull. I also said I wouldn't mind if it was removed from SB's (or alternatively given to infil/ns). So, shall we leave that sub-subject alone as it doesn't appear we can progress much further there, eh?

Well the thing is, it is there, and it fucks up balance. Thats the problem, nomatter what any SB say it is still an IWIN tool, which is up 33% of the time they RvR if they use it. Thats a problem. You wouldnt mind.. ofc you wouldnt.

This is some test data puppet helped get with his easy access to a test server. It's not a 100% waterproof test ofcourse, but with the limited time put in, it's rather suitable and gives a fair picture of the situation. This is taken from this thread.

Cap DPS of PA = Cap Damage / Weapon Delay

So let us take an example (taken from a test character on a test server, but in no way a general example).

Nightshade:
MH delay: 4.2
OH delay: 3.4

MH swing time: 1.9
Duel swing time: 1.7
(ie, if only MH swings it's a 1.9 delay, otherwise a 1.7 delay)

MH Cap: 903
OH Cap: 192

MH swing dps: (903 / 1.9) = 475
Duel Swing dps: (1095 / 1.7) = 644

On the assumption that the NS have enough CD to swing off-hand 50% (EDIT: Which was the case in the above example) of the time, we can now calculate:

Average CD PA cap dps: ( 644 + 475 ) / 2 = 559


Let us now look at the Shadowblade using a 5.7 delay weapon.

Cap 2H: 1419

2H dly: 5.7

2H swing: 2.54

2H swing dps: 559

----

In summary, yeah, that seemed pretty much to equal out. If you still don't belive the figures, feel free to set up a test with various specs equipment options.

I know what I have experienced myself, and that is quite simply, SBs PA hard as fucking hell. They also BS2 hard as fucking hell. Its ridicilous damages they deal out atm in US. And as Puppet said in the post after yours.. the results arent accurate it seems.

You only need 59 qui in template to cap. That means you have extra space to spellcraft other stats in. So, the argument goes both ways on the benefit / disadvantage of high starting quickness.

When making a slashtemp its actually not too hard to make a good solid template.

So you are suggesting high rank kobold shadowblades that have played the last 3-4 years to reroll? How absurdly arrogant of you!

Those high rank SBs could have rerolled aaaagees ago.. since it has been known how SBmechanics works for a long time. And still, it is about options.

Nonetheless, you have actually have utility with the DD's, your damage shield and your dot. It's nice for kiting enemies forinstance. If I run and try to do a kite+pa setup I don't bother against a NS. I simply annot restealth while having the combat timer triggered by the DD.

I never use damageshield even though I have it on my bot, there is a reason for it.

Anyways, the magic do damage. Supposedly it actually does so much damage as to more or less equal out the hp difference. If you don't like it, perhaps take your own advice to the kobold SB's and reroll to a norse SB....

No, it doesnt equal out the stats+hits. And I actually have a norse SB under construction atm. I have more mids aswell, I kinda have alot of toons in all realms.

I haven't played on the US servers, but I am starting to see a trend in all your argumentation. A mindset that you apparently share with puppet. Basicly anyone that is not in your realm sucks. As suchs, the level of argumentation is down the drain and you really don't have much to hold it in when you display suchs naivity as to belive it's because "they suck".

I have played on US, I have played on EU. And you dont know it I guess but I am active in all three realms. I call no realm my homerealm. Thus your silly arguement falls flat and hold no ground at all. I am first and foremost for balance, I have always been like that. I have actually been there and admitted that SBs indeed need a hand before 1.82 but I guess that doesnt matter a single bit..

Was that directed at me? I don't recall having added on any 1v1 fight in ages (with the sole exeption of puppet, whom I still have quite a few adds to pay favour in return on).

If you are the SB Lotraz then you added on me 2 days ago when I was chasing around a kobie hunter. Pilskafts stood there and didnt add but you did. I even PMd you on IRC after it but you never responded. PM me on IRC if you wish to continue that discussion

I see your tone, you are prejudiced and arrogant like so many other bitter mids, Its pointless to discuss this with you, let's just see what happens the next months instead. I'm glad rangers still are solid at least

 

[Flimgoblin]

think this thread's had enough, it's turned into bickering over who added on who

feel free to start a new reasoned discussion on the relative balance of assasin power (in 1.82 - not 1.83b which is what this thread was meant to be about) but leave out the add whine.

 

[Killswitch]

think this thread's had enough, it's turned into bickering over who added on who

feel free to start a new reasoned discussion on the relative balance of assasin power (in 1.82 - not 1.83b which is what this thread was meant to be about) but leave out the add whine.

Fair enough...but you forgot to lock the thread