Well...there goes the life.
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Ch3tan
I aer teh win!!
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mooSe_
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I got it from a UK distributor: Welcome to The Keyboard Company these are the only guys I found who are in the uk, and I had to wait a week and half because they didn't have any stock.
mooSe_
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Close positions are always tough for zerg. If it's something like close positions meta/lt with no obvious 3rd base then my usual responses are either:
- add an extra hatchery on 2 bases and try to outmass them rather than taking a 3rd, then if you can't win it right away you can take a later 3rd once you have an advantage and/or map control
- go mass muta in the mid game; this keeps them in their base which allows you to expand; you can take bases on opposite sides of the map and they can't possibly take down all your expos because they have to walk so far and your army moves so fast.
The first option deals with protoss who want to attack quite quickly off 2 bases but doesn't do that well vs protoss who just sit back and mass a collosus/stalker/sentry deathball, because although you have increased unit production you don't have the eco to mass anything other than ling/roach in large numbers. You will end up hitting 200 supply of useless units and he will be able to hit your base before you can remass because the positions are so close.
Vs the turtling 2 base protoss the muta option is better since it allows you to get way ahead in economy. You just need to learn when to transition out of muta into roach, hydra or ultra depending on the situation (or possibly broodlords if he insists on turtling for ever) because muta don't hold up very well vs a lategame protoss army with blink stalkers and storm. This build is risky though because if they open stargates and you open spire then you will be really far behind because phoenix rape muta and going corruptor will leave you with an expensive air army that cant harass and is useless if he just skews his composition more towards gateway units.
That advice is a bit general though so might not be any use. If you want I could take a look at one of your replays and see if I can offer any more specific advice.
- add an extra hatchery on 2 bases and try to outmass them rather than taking a 3rd, then if you can't win it right away you can take a later 3rd once you have an advantage and/or map control
- go mass muta in the mid game; this keeps them in their base which allows you to expand; you can take bases on opposite sides of the map and they can't possibly take down all your expos because they have to walk so far and your army moves so fast.
The first option deals with protoss who want to attack quite quickly off 2 bases but doesn't do that well vs protoss who just sit back and mass a collosus/stalker/sentry deathball, because although you have increased unit production you don't have the eco to mass anything other than ling/roach in large numbers. You will end up hitting 200 supply of useless units and he will be able to hit your base before you can remass because the positions are so close.
Vs the turtling 2 base protoss the muta option is better since it allows you to get way ahead in economy. You just need to learn when to transition out of muta into roach, hydra or ultra depending on the situation (or possibly broodlords if he insists on turtling for ever) because muta don't hold up very well vs a lategame protoss army with blink stalkers and storm. This build is risky though because if they open stargates and you open spire then you will be really far behind because phoenix rape muta and going corruptor will leave you with an expensive air army that cant harass and is useless if he just skews his composition more towards gateway units.
That advice is a bit general though so might not be any use. If you want I could take a look at one of your replays and see if I can offer any more specific advice.
Yeah I agree with what you've said and that's my view aswell pretty much. I have two specific problems vs protoss on close positions.
First is where I over-drone even after I scout his all-in/4 gateway push deathball coming my way and I dont have adequate roach count or just a lack of scouting kills m.
Second is where he FE and attacks me continously over and over with stalker/sentry vs my roach/hydra but in this case I think I should of gone muta rahter than hydra to put more pressure on and I didn't get my 4 gas as quickly as I should have, I have to make an army over and over to stay alive and protoss own my units.
In most cases think my problem is macro, as its average and I'm playing vs plat/diamond players and as zerg I feel my macro needs to be so much better than theirs like they can just do anything but zerg really has to play very well for them to win. I don't know how to upload a replay but if you have one where you own a protoss would be good
First is where I over-drone even after I scout his all-in/4 gateway push deathball coming my way and I dont have adequate roach count or just a lack of scouting kills m.
Second is where he FE and attacks me continously over and over with stalker/sentry vs my roach/hydra but in this case I think I should of gone muta rahter than hydra to put more pressure on and I didn't get my 4 gas as quickly as I should have, I have to make an army over and over to stay alive and protoss own my units.
In most cases think my problem is macro, as its average and I'm playing vs plat/diamond players and as zerg I feel my macro needs to be so much better than theirs like they can just do anything but zerg really has to play very well for them to win. I don't know how to upload a replay but if you have one where you own a protoss would be good
ileks
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As Moose says, survive into the late game (muta harass with a long distance 3rd if close positions) and then get broodlords or ultralisks (depending on what they have). If you can keep them on two bases for long enough you will always win. The key is surviving the mid game push that a Protoss will chuck at you.
As for four gate attacks, once scouted I believe the correct response for zerg is to stop at 18-22 drones, get spine crawlers and use speedlings to delay it as much as possible. If you can surround the stalkers with speedlings you will hold it off easily.
As for four gate attacks, once scouted I believe the correct response for zerg is to stop at 18-22 drones, get spine crawlers and use speedlings to delay it as much as possible. If you can surround the stalkers with speedlings you will hold it off easily.
mooSe_
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I don't have any good recent games to post since I haven't had much time to play and when I have played I've been doing terrible: 2-11 was last nights record lol.
To deal with 4 gate, make sure you can scout it early enough. I try to have an overlord in position somewhere outside their base and then I move it in around 6:00 minute mark to see which buildings I can scout. Try to get your overlord coming from an angle where you are likely to see their tech buildings easily and they don't have pylons to stop you early, or you might end up seeing nothing. Also try to keep your drone alive in his base for as long as possible at the start because if you are lucky you might be able to scout which tech choice he is going for, a careful protoss might wait until his has killed the drone before teching, but in that case you are delaying him so it's still good.
If you scout all 4 gates then stop making drones, put up some spine crawlers and start making lings (or roaches I guess if you normally have a roach warren at this point).
If you only see 3 gates then he could be going 3gate expand or he might just have his 4th gateway hidden somewhere, so it's best to put up a couple of spines just in case, and try to have a few lings or an overlord outside his natural to scout for an expo. If he expos then you can go back to making drones, otherwise carry on spamming units.
Vs a 2 base stalker/sentry army, roach/hydra and muta/ling should both work ok, but yeah muta/ling is probably better since it allows you to harass and counter attack, and you don't have to worry about him going 2 robo collosus (if he does go 2 robo collosus then you probably win).
If you find you have ended up with roach/hydra vs this then try and spread lots of creep, make your army mostly hydra and keep scouting with fast overlords/overseer for his inevitable robo tech. Once he goes for robo you need a spire so you can make corruptors (also start making more roaches than hydras at this point).
Like I said before, going for muta/ling is risky since you lose to stargate builds, so try to scout those out before you put down your spire. He should be putting the stargates down between 6-7 minutes into the game, so just use pretty much the same overlord technique for scouting 4gate because it will happen around the same time.
To deal with 4 gate, make sure you can scout it early enough. I try to have an overlord in position somewhere outside their base and then I move it in around 6:00 minute mark to see which buildings I can scout. Try to get your overlord coming from an angle where you are likely to see their tech buildings easily and they don't have pylons to stop you early, or you might end up seeing nothing. Also try to keep your drone alive in his base for as long as possible at the start because if you are lucky you might be able to scout which tech choice he is going for, a careful protoss might wait until his has killed the drone before teching, but in that case you are delaying him so it's still good.
If you scout all 4 gates then stop making drones, put up some spine crawlers and start making lings (or roaches I guess if you normally have a roach warren at this point).
If you only see 3 gates then he could be going 3gate expand or he might just have his 4th gateway hidden somewhere, so it's best to put up a couple of spines just in case, and try to have a few lings or an overlord outside his natural to scout for an expo. If he expos then you can go back to making drones, otherwise carry on spamming units.
Vs a 2 base stalker/sentry army, roach/hydra and muta/ling should both work ok, but yeah muta/ling is probably better since it allows you to harass and counter attack, and you don't have to worry about him going 2 robo collosus (if he does go 2 robo collosus then you probably win).
If you find you have ended up with roach/hydra vs this then try and spread lots of creep, make your army mostly hydra and keep scouting with fast overlords/overseer for his inevitable robo tech. Once he goes for robo you need a spire so you can make corruptors (also start making more roaches than hydras at this point).
Like I said before, going for muta/ling is risky since you lose to stargate builds, so try to scout those out before you put down your spire. He should be putting the stargates down between 6-7 minutes into the game, so just use pretty much the same overlord technique for scouting 4gate because it will happen around the same time.
pikeh
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I learn so much from Day9.
So I guess most of you guys have played RTS's before? This is like my first one (apart from red alert for about 5 minutes). Im slowly improving still, getting my build orders down before I get back on ladder.
I think because I watch so many pro replays and vid's that I just expect everyone to be pro players with wild tactics, but in reality it is just the fundamentals you have to know like the back of your hand.
So I guess most of you guys have played RTS's before? This is like my first one (apart from red alert for about 5 minutes). Im slowly improving still, getting my build orders down before I get back on ladder.
I think because I watch so many pro replays and vid's that I just expect everyone to be pro players with wild tactics, but in reality it is just the fundamentals you have to know like the back of your hand.
ileks
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Yep. I think once you master a solid build and can keep your money low off 1 or 2 bases while controlling your units you will make platinum/diamond easily
Have you learnt all your hotkeys for terran yet? Using the same control groups every game will be useful as well. It's up to you but I reccomend having all your command centres on 3, barracks on 4, factory/starport on 5/6 and your units on 1 and 2. It takes some getting used to but if you stick at it you will be in a much better position. I've been doing it for so long that tapping 3e every 15 seconds or whatever to make a probe is like instinct
Have you learnt all your hotkeys for terran yet? Using the same control groups every game will be useful as well. It's up to you but I reccomend having all your command centres on 3, barracks on 4, factory/starport on 5/6 and your units on 1 and 2. It takes some getting used to but if you stick at it you will be in a much better position. I've been doing it for so long that tapping 3e every 15 seconds or whatever to make a probe is like instinct
pikeh
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Yeah Im learning to do that, got my commands on 4, rax's on 5, fac/starports on 6, main army on 1 and now Im developing splitting up with elements of the army into 1,2,3 so I can micro better, but thats not top priority atm. Im getting good at making SCV's all the time now, the problems seem to occur when I expand or want to expand past my natural, I either chicken out and don't or I kind of forget about my expansion whilst attacking.
Gotta remember that 4,4 takes me to command centre etc, will make moving around the map much easier.
Gotta remember that 4,4 takes me to command centre etc, will make moving around the map much easier.
mooSe_
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I think day9 said it in one of the dailies, but an important thing is being able to look at one thing whilst doing another with your hands: like producing units and scvs from your base whilst looking at a battle. Rather than constantly going back to look at your base during a battle you just go 4S5AAA6T or whatever whilst you carry on microing.
Nate
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I've been doing the same thing pikeh, my quickbar is pretty much the same. I've found having Siege tanks being a separate control group makes things a lot easier, not sure whether to use vikings on one or marines. Right at the start I'll have a few for different scv's / all of them, makes it much easier to deal with early rushes.
Nate
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So Code S has started now, I'm a bit confused though. Only saw the most recent game between Polt and TheBest.
How did it work that TheBest has gone through? Looking at the schedule if I read it correctly:
Polt > NesTea
Polt < TheBest
TheBest < Maka
TheBest > Polt
Oh I see now, NesTea beat Polt it didn't say that on the schedule
Polt > NesTea
Polt < TheBest
TheBest < Maka
TheBest > Polt
Oh I see now, NesTea beat Polt it didn't say that on the schedule
pikeh
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Had the best game vs my mate yesterday.
I did some conventional builds in my first few games and I won them so I thought I'd do silly things like early proxy expands.
When the next patch hits, there are notes saying that custom map makers can now make UI's, does that mean just elements of UI's for custom maps etc, or like WoW type UI addon's etc?
Also, when the ladder resets, will my shitty win/loss ration be reset as well?
I did some conventional builds in my first few games and I won them so I thought I'd do silly things like early proxy expands.
When the next patch hits, there are notes saying that custom map makers can now make UI's, does that mean just elements of UI's for custom maps etc, or like WoW type UI addon's etc?
Also, when the ladder resets, will my shitty win/loss ration be reset as well?
ileks
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I think the win/loss ration will reset yes but your hidden rating will remain. So you won't need placement matches or anything again I don't think.
Anyone thinking of having a go at the TSL tournament thing? Afaik (not very much) anyone can enter it? Could be fun and you might come up against a pro i guess
Will have to look it up later.
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mooSe_
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Anyone thinking of having a go at the TSL tournament thing? Afaik (not very much) anyone can enter it? Could be fun and you might come up against a pro i guess
There's some invited players but there are also open qualifiers (4 on EU and 4 on NA). I'll probably take part in all of the qualifiers if I remember to sign up. I sometimes play in Go4SC2 and/or Zotac cups as well as a few others, but I never really do very well. There's always a pretty good chance you will be placed vs pro. In Go4SC2 I once had to play Adelscott (obviously I got raped) and if I had survived 1 more round in a recent Gamerbase tournament I would've been vs MouzMana
mooSe_
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I just tried to play safe and standard in the hope that the game would go on a bit longer and even if I lost it would be a good game so I could upload it for people to see
I got a bit nervous though; I over reacted to his early pressure and ended up failing pretty bad. I find I get nervous whenever I play vs someone that I've heard of like that or if there is a bunch of observers that I don't know, and then I end up embarressing myself. One time I played vs ServyOa (rank 35 in the most recent EU top 200: StarCraft II: Top 200 29/12 - StarCraft II) and there was like 6+ observers who were all people I didn't know. I lost to his 2stargate voidray (he doesn't even play protoss), it was embarressing
Just got Diamond with 70 wins and I think a lot of ppl promoted to master's so made it easier for me. I'm just now getting properly interested in the game after a 3 week break. Went 9-2 today and got promoted so will be playing more now I actually feel like I want to play. Celestial.483 (I think haven't checked right now).
old.Tohtori
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Not going to spoilt it, but it's good, real good, 2v2 match;
YouTube - SHOUTcraft: Match 2 - Team Dignitas vs Team Virus 2v2
Otherwise i'm hooked on star battle(or whats it called, 6v6 ship battle thing). It's just great that with SC2 you get all these "minigames.", well worth the money even if you don't play rts
YouTube - SHOUTcraft: Match 2 - Team Dignitas vs Team Virus 2v2
Otherwise i'm hooked on star battle(or whats it called, 6v6 ship battle thing
). It's just great that with SC2 you get all these "minigames.", well worth the money even if you don't play rts
pikeh
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heard about that Athene guy whos going for number 1 SC player in the world?
Apprently hes quite famous for WoW type exploits and stuff.
Last time I looked he had a 57-7 win/loss ratio in master league, after apparently never playing before. Methinks some bullshit is occurin'.
Smurf!
Been just custom-ing with my mate recently, a lot of fun, and no pressure like the leagues. Means I can practice macro, can definately see an improvement.
and 2v2 is very very fun.
I Hate the thor-repair fix though :<
Apprently hes quite famous for WoW type exploits and stuff.
Last time I looked he had a 57-7 win/loss ratio in master league, after apparently never playing before. Methinks some bullshit is occurin'.
Smurf!
Been just custom-ing with my mate recently, a lot of fun, and no pressure like the leagues. Means I can practice macro, can definately see an improvement.
and 2v2 is very very fun.
I Hate the thor-repair fix though :<