Wazz's hurt himself

[rynnor]

However, having friends with similar experiences and talking to the medical professionals themselves - MRI should be mandatory in these cases - and it's only cost that stops it being so.

Its pure and simple rationing - I would seriously urge everyone to get private health cover because the NHS is increasingly shite.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I'm beginning to agree with that.

 

[opticle]

Gonna have to take you to task on this oneopticle.

Fair enough dude I agree with what you're saying to a point. I was quoting medical lit rather than saying anything, so if you think that's wrong I'd be grateful for a quote that says so. I haven't seen a 72 hour number anywhere I've looked in a few brief searches. Here's another one:

Performing surgery for a torn ligament in the ankle is very rare. Physicians prefer to use nonsurgical methods of recovery. Surgery is performed only when the tear is very severe, or when the patient is an elite athlete and requires surgery to regain top performance.

And

Ultimately, it is accepted that grade I and grade II sprains are treated conservatively, whereas the decision to treat grade III lateral ankle sprains (often associated with a complete tear of the ATFL and CFL) is approached on an individual basis.
..
A widely agreed upon finding is that grade I and grade II ligamentous sprains should be treated nonsurgically, and these injuries have good to excellent prognosis with such treatment.

It sounds like you were a special case and actually had something pretty serious going on, and you were unlucky. It sounds like an MRI could have been helpful.. the vast majority won't have anything serious and if everyone had an MRI, it would be pretty wasteful.

Either way, it's about NNTs (Number Needed to Treat) and statistics - NNT is where they essentially work out how many people they would need to treat to save 1 life, or cure 1 disease or detect 1 problem. The numbers are always remarkably high and in the case of MRIs for ?twisted ankles, I'm sure it's very high. The vast majority of people do not need over-investigating like they seem to think they do. It's a big problem.

I know you had a problem and it merited investigating, but by far most people won't. It depends how many negative scans to one positive one that you're happy with.

You honestly think anyone that sprains their ankle should have an MRI ? Because then we'll have to stop doing angiograms.

Broken bones hurt. You can pick 'em up easy. Fractures? Well, they're easily dealt with - just leave off for a couple of months and you'll be fine (unless you're a twat).

And on this you're still completely wrong and you don't realise how complicated it is. Otherwise the specialities of orthopaedics and radiology would never have been born. Look up some hard to spot foot / hand / skull / elbow / knee / hip / pelvic / vertebral (cervical / thoracic / lumbar) fractures - you need Xrays for all of them, and the type of fracture changes how it's managed.

What did they do differently after you had an MRI ? (I'm genuinely interested)

 

[opticle]

Its pure and simple rationing - I would seriously urge everyone to get private health cover because the NHS is increasingly shite.

If you do this, just do one or the other - people trying to mix and match private and public healthcare usually fucks it all up so no one knows what's going on. People who have had private healthcare frequently end up having far too many investigations and being far too anxious about diseases they don't have.

 

[Hawkwind]

If you do this, just do one or the other - people trying to mix and match private and public healthcare usually fucks it all up so no one knows what's going on. People who have had private healthcare frequently end up having far too many investigations and being far too anxious about diseases they don't have.

Agreed, UK should follow Australia's example. If you have job you pay for private medical insurance.

 

[rynnor]

If you do this, just do one or the other - people trying to mix and match private and public healthcare usually fucks it all up so no one knows what's going on. People who have had private healthcare frequently end up having far too many investigations and being far too anxious about diseases they don't have.

Without access to private paediatricians my youngest daughter may have died - the NHS ones were so unbelievably poor you would laugh if it wasnt so serious.

In my experience bungled care is the modern reality of the NHS.

 

[Raven]

In my experience it is the other way around!

The problem is, it depends entirely on your local health authority.

 

[DaGaffer]

You don't realise how good the NHS is until you don't have access to it anymore.

 

[rynnor]

You don't realise how good the NHS is until you don't have access to it anymore.

How long have you been living outside the UK? Outside of London the NHS is a real postcode lottery.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Even in London they were shit.

Kingston A&E checked me in as a minor despite having massive vision problems, a potential broken foot and a potential concussion. They thought it appropriate that I wait for 5 hours with increasing headache, nausea and dizziness, which later turned to uncontrollable shivering while they see to people who stubbed their toes.

 

[sayward]

I do agree about the NHS and waits in A+E and treatment etc. However when my daughter broke her neck and fractured her skull, and was helicoptered in, she was one of those cases that was stretchered past the queue and no doubt caused a massive hold up. But I didn't notice that!

 

[Raven]

Yep. Frankly. Thank fuck for the NHS.

About a year ago, despite being fairly healthy and young, I had what seemed at the time a heart attack, I had all the symptoms. Chest pain, shooting pains up my arms and to my jaw, struggling for breath etc. The paramedics were excellent, I was quite obviously freaking out but they calmed both me and my wife down and got me to A&E. The nurses and doctors there were again amazing, they really couldn't do enough for me.

It turned out to be reflux esophagitis caused by a combination of alcohol and food allergies but still I am incredibly grateful to the NHS for sorting me out.

Not to mention I wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for an NHS doctor. When I was a baby I had a strangulated hernia in my stomach, the military doctor (my old man was in the paras) sent me home but my mum went to see the village doc, who saved my life. I still have a scar that has grown with me, about a foot across my stomach.

 

[Scouse]

You don't realise how good the NHS is until you don't have access to it anymore.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the removal of the NHS. I accept and support that statement wholeheartedly. The NHS is a great institution.

However - it could be a bazillion times better IMO. Private medical has shown me that the best graduates, best doctors, best nurses and best care happens for those with money. The NHS has patched up all my broken bones, but it stubbonly and steadfastly failed to help me with a debilitating problem that meant I couldn't realistically play any sport throughout my twenties and early thirties.

When I had the cash I paid to be treated privately. Not through insurance, paid myself. About 8-9k. It's like a new lease of life and although I'll never be up to running sports ever again (because so much damage was done to my joints whilst the NHS was utterly failing to do it's job properly) I have lost 4 stone in the last couple of years through cycling and don't fall over every single day due to structural instability that a baby could spot.

 

[Moriath]

if you lived in the usa and saw what wasnt available if you rely on buying health care then you would know the nhs is something so much better than that ...

sure if you have private you can jump a few queues here and there but at the end of the day unless you have loads a money you not gonna have cancer care under private

 

[DaGaffer]

How long have you been living outside the UK? Outside of London the NHS is a real postcode lottery.

Four years. In that period we've had two kids, spent ten grand on private maternity care just to get the level of care that would be a default position under the NHS. And yes, we had the opportunity to compare like with like; Amanda was on business in London when she was pregnant with our first and she had a little scare; went into St. Thomas' (I think? One near Waterloo station?) and the level of efficiency and care was night and day compared to Ireland. Its not so much the staff (nurses we've had in Dublin were great and so was our consultant) but the facilities are positively Victorian. We had a second incident when we were over in London and our daughter came out with a temperature and severe rash - doctor in Finchley diagnosed the problem instantly; she'd been over prescribed with a certain type of antibiotic and had a reaction. Reason? The available range of approved prescribed medicines in Ireland is tiny compared to the UK (and prescription charges themselves are much higher).

When it comes to GPs, I spend €50-€60 for every visit, no exceptions for kids, same price. I can claim a bit of that back from health insurance, but not a lot. And anyone with kids will tell you, you simply spend o lot of time in the doctors with them when they're small.

Now outside London I'm sure you're right about it being a lottery, but I think it always has been (I remember horror stories about the hospital in Grimsby when I was a kid), but overall, I'd still prefer NHS levels of care to the semi-privatised, under-resourced mess we have over here.

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't think anyone is suggesting the removal of the NHS. I accept and support that statement wholeheartedly. The NHS is a great institution.

However - it could be a bazillion times better IMO. Private medical has shown me that the best graduates, best doctors, best nurses and best care happens for those with money. The NHS has patched up all my broken bones, but it stubbonly and steadfastly failed to help me with a debilitating problem that meant I couldn't realistically play any sport throughout my twenties and early thirties.

When I had the cash I paid to be treated privately. Not through insurance, paid myself. About 8-9k. It's like a new lease of life and although I'll never be up to running sports ever again (because so much damage was done to my joints whilst the NHS was utterly failing to do it's job properly) I have lost 4 stone in the last couple of years through cycling and don't fall over every single day due to structural instability that a baby could spot.

I've no doubt you're right, but I've long since come to the conclusion that the NHS can only afford to be good at "stuff that may kill you" and maternity care. It falls down on the chronic or debilitating conditions because they take time and money (and also because they're harder to get research money for). I was basically told by my doctor in the UK that there was no way on earth I could get my collateral ligaments fixed on the NHS; its possible, but I would be at the back of a queue for so long I'd *quote* "be dead by the time I got to the front". Because I can actually walk (but not hike any more), I wouldn't have a chance. But, over here, I'd be in a similar length queue to have it done privately, and it would cost me more money.

 

[soze]

I broke my foot in a stupid accident, I dropped something a metal vase I think it was and tried to cushion it with my foot. For that I got two broken bones and about 30 stitches. I had the bone re broken 3 times as they were not setting right. When I finally got to see a specialist he took one look at the way I walked and said my hip and back pain were due to favoring that foot when I walked. He broke the bones again signed me off for two weeks with instructions to to walk or drive which the other doctors did not and it healed fine. But he still thinks I will need a hip replacement by 40 and it took about a year to walk on that foot properly again after so long of not trusting it.

So I agree private every time now. Luckily I get some cover from work.

 

[rynnor]

if you lived in the usa and saw what wasnt available if you rely on buying health care then you would know the nhs is something so much better than that ...

sure if you have private you can jump a few queues here and there but at the end of the day unless you have loads a money you not gonna have cancer care under private

A few queues? I cant even get an appointment at my GPs for 3 weeks - I can walk straight into a private GPs and get a proper consultation not a how fast can we get them out the door job.

I have so many horror stories about the NHS I dont know where to start tbh.

When my mother was terribly ill we managed to get a GP visit (she only lived in the next road) after really pushing for it to get some doddering old codger come out and say it was just Flu.

Her legs were massively swollen and eventually I got an ambulance out because she was visibly very ill.

She had had heart failure - she had to have an emergency procedure to drain off the fluid from her heart or she would have died.

Or the time they put her on the euphemistically named liverpool care pathway without telling us or her - basically starving her and giving her no water for days until they realised she wasnt about to croak so having tortured a terminally ill woman for days.

Or being confronted by the realities of NHS rationing after being told by her GP she couldnt have an eye problem investigated because they had "spent enough on her".

 

[rynnor]

And yes, we had the opportunity to compare like with like; Amanda was on business in London when she was pregnant with our first and she had a little scare; went into St. Thomas' (I think? One near Waterloo station?) and the level of efficiency and care was night and day compared to Ireland.

I think you picked a good hospital tbh - even the non central london ones are far worse.

 

[rynnor]

I was basically told by my doctor in the UK that there was no way on earth I could get my collateral ligaments fixed on the NHS; its possible, but I would be at the back of a queue for so long I'd *quote* "be dead by the time I got to the front". Because I can actually walk (but not hike any more), I wouldn't have a chance. But, over here, I'd be in a similar length queue to have it done privately, and it would cost me more money.

What? You would have surgery within days privately in the UK- what on earth are you on about with similar length queue's ?

Get on a plane tbh.

 

[DaGaffer]

What? You would have surgery within days privately in the UK- what on earth are you on about with similar length queue's ?

Get on a plane tbh.

I know I could get it done in the UK, but I'd have to pay full whack for it because my increasingly rubbish Irish health insurance wouldn't pay for it to be done over there, and I just can't justify the spend; get my knees fixed so I can go hiking again but I don't have any money or time to go hiking anyway and won't until the kids are older. I should have had it done as soon as I got back from travelling, but life got in the way.

This is kind of my point; it may not feel like it, but the UK has the best of both worlds; the NHS and a decent private sector to take up the slack; here, the HSE (Irish NHS equivalent) is literally bare minimum level care, the private sector has to take up much more of the burden, so it ends up being like the NHS anyway, especially as all the health insurance providers have been so fucked up by the financial crisis that you have an ongoing situation where premiums are rising but for worse levels of cover (significantly worse actually).

 

[rynnor]

This is kind of my point; it may not feel like it, but the UK has the best of both worlds; the NHS and a decent private sector to take up the slack; here, the HSE (Irish NHS equivalent) is literally bare minimum level care, the private sector has to take up much more of the burden, so it ends up being like the NHS anyway, especially as all the health insurance providers have been so fucked up by the financial crisis that you have an ongoing situation where premiums are rising but for worse levels of cover (significantly worse actually).

The quality of surgery/care is so low in the NHS they often end up botching things leaving you in a worse position.

My best mates Mrs is a good example of the horrors of NHS care.

When she had baby 1 they cut her to get the baby out - episiotomy - but they botched the repair - she had to have a second set of surgery to repair the initial botch but clearly all the scar tissue builds up and makes things more problematic.

Because of that surgery she had to have a C section for baby 2 - but they botched the C section and she ended up with multiple hernias.

She had to wait 6 months to get surgery for this and they only did one so she had to wait another 6 months to get the pair done.

I dont know if you know much about hernia surgery but there are basically 2 approaches - a skilled surgeon can carefully repair each layer individually with stitches - takes a while but has a good sucess rate or B - they put in a piece of netting over the hernia - its quick n cheap and therefore beloved of the NHS - sadly its not actually very effective.

Basically her hernia repairs failed and she has now had a total of 5 hernia repairs done on the NHS - her abdomen is a mass of scars and the surgery becomes increasingly difficult due to all the accumulated scar tissue - shes a wreck basically.

 

[rynnor]

This is kind of my point; it may not feel like it, but the UK has the best of both worlds; the NHS and a decent private sector to take up the slack; here, the HSE (Irish NHS equivalent) is literally bare minimum level care, the private sector has to take up much more of the burden, so it ends up being like the NHS anyway, especially as all the health insurance providers have been so fucked up by the financial crisis that you have an ongoing situation where premiums are rising but for worse levels of cover (significantly worse actually).

Your not living in a first world country though - you have to expect services to be poor.

 

[Scouse]

I was basically told by my doctor in the UK that there was no way on earth I could get my collateral ligaments fixed on the NHS; its possible, but I would be at the back of a queue for so long I'd *quote* "be dead by the time I got to the front"

I wish they'd told me the truth. Then I wouldn't have fought with them for so long and I'd have taken a loan out and had the damage fixed a long time before I did irreperable and debilitating damage.

The lack of truth in this country is, frankly, criminal. Without information it's impossible to make an informed decision.

 

[Scouse]

I just can't justify the spend

There's nothing more important. Not when you factor in what the knock-on effects cost you.

You simply can't justify not getting it done. Not if you're thinking straight.

 

[DaGaffer]

Your not living in a first world country though - you have to expect services to be poor.

Ho ho ho.

 

[DaGaffer]

There's nothing more important. Not when you factor in what the knock-on effects cost you.

You simply can't justify not getting it done. Not if you're thinking straight.

You'd be amazed at how easy that justification is.

 

[Scouse]

You'd be amazed at how easy that justification is.

I understand it. I really do - I've been there myself.

You'd be amazed how much of a difference to your life it'll make. Amazed. I'm like a completely new person - the best 9 grand I ever spent.

Worth it at ten times the price.

 

[Lethul]

So what happend? Eye and foot in the same injury?

 

[soze]

Marking Roy Keane at a corner he got a foot stamp and an elbow to the eye in one movement!