News Venables in Jail again

old.Tohtori

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In your opinion it does not serve a purpose. In mine it guarantees another nut job isn't going to be able to cause pain and hurt to some other child. How people can even begin to defend child molesters is beyond me. They get off on kids and nothing in the whole world is going to change that.

Who's defending?

Death is not a punishment, they don't suffer, they don't contemplate on what they've done, we learn nothing etc. No use. There are other ways of removing uncurable people from society then death.
 

Bahumat

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Who's defending?

Death is not a punishment, they don't suffer, they don't contemplate on what they've done, we learn nothing etc. No use. There are other ways of removing uncurable people from society then death.

Spot on, they can't learn anything if they are dead. But what alternate ways have we of removing uncurable people from society other than prison?

1) In England we don't have enough prisons so people are getting let out of their prison sentences earlier (according to hearsay). Also some people do not get convicted as they do not have the space (again, hearsay).

The estimated cost for a UK prison place is usually quoted at something like £37,500 per year. So this works out at £102.74 per day

2) England (and most of the world) are in debt. Our new Prime Minister is cutting costs all over the place to reduce the debt. I would be curious to see how much the government is spending (Total) on people who should not be let out of jail...

3) If you have conclusive proof someone has commited a crime such as murder with intent, they should be killed. With children it's different because you can argue they don't know any better. Time and their actions should decide their fate.
If a child does something like the Jamie Bulger killing, they serve their time and get released. At a certain age (lets say 20) if they are still commiting crimes they should be killed. They fucked up big time in the first place, then they do not learn from their mistakes. They are a waste of flesh and bone.
 

old.Tohtori

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Well, even if i agreed with death penalty, don't know about doing any crime warrants a death. Same level perhaps, but not like "ex murderer drives drunk, gets the chair".

If you serve your punishment, what ever it is, then it should be a clean slate per say. Otherwise the so called punishment is pointless.

Now on the issue of what to do with uncurables? People only come up with death because, ironically, they are too humane. Replace animal testing with human suspects, throw them in diamond/coal mines for life, use them as worker ants(free labor).

In essence, once you cross the line where you would be put to death, put you to use.
 

Ch3tan

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Bahu, I asked earlier if people would be happy to pay more taxes to have the death penalty back - using the US as an example, it costs more to put someone to death than to imprison them for life. Not one person calling for the death penalty has answered this question yet.

Also as for overcrowding in prisons, that is not a real issue with the most violent and dangerous criminals, they will be jailed whatever space issues there are. The problem with overcrowding is for more minor offences that people should probably serve more time for.
 

old.Tohtori

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The problem with overcrowding is for more minor offences that people should probably serve more time for.

Or even lesser crimes that people should just get a fine for.

Jailing someone for something like...err...distriputing pot? Even if i'm no pot smoker myself, i don't really see harm in it enough to warrant jail time. Just slap a fine big enough to remove the crimes worth.

Well unless you count lazy f*cker epidemic a harm :p
 

Calaen

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If you serve your punishment, what ever it is, then it should be a clean slate per say. Otherwise the so called punishment is pointless.

Sure, lets just forget the fact he murdered a child when he was ten. You can't ignroe the fact he killed someone when he was ten and is now looking at child porn.


Quoted from a newpaper. (some might find the reading upsetting)

The Sentencing Advisory Panel (SAP) has a scale whereby indecent images of children are graded in terms of severity, from one to five. Of the images Venables downloaded, the vast majority, 44, were at level one (nudity or erotic posing), but eight were at level four (penetrative sexual activity between children and adults); one featured a two-year-old holding a man's erect penis, and another a very young child being anally raped. By looking at images, Venables told the police, he was "breaking the last taboo" – a puzzling remark given that he'd already broken it by killing a two-year-old. But perhaps in his own mind he was breaking it, since he was sexually arousing himself by looking at images of children being violated, just as he had violated James Bulger.

Now sit back and tell me this guy or any of the other sick fucks who take part in this kind of shit can be fixed. I'll tell you now they can't and the only way to guarantee protection for the people who need it most is to destroy them.
 

Calaen

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Bahu, I asked earlier if people would be happy to pay more taxes to have the death penalty back - using the US as an example, it costs more to put someone to death than to imprison them for life. Not one person calling for the death penalty has answered this question yet.

Also as for overcrowding in prisons, that is not a real issue with the most violent and dangerous criminals, they will be jailed whatever space issues there are. The problem with overcrowding is for more minor offences that people should probably serve more time for.

No need to waste money on Appeals, If they are guility they don't get a chance to appeal, just take them out back give them their last meal and then bang.
 

Ch3tan

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Clearly you are an expert in such things Cal? No? then stop presenting that opinion as fact?
 

Ch3tan

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No need to waste money on Appeals, If they are guility they don't get a chance to appeal, just take them out back give them their last meal and then bang.


Just like Tierk, I am very glad you don't set any laws. Go and live in one of the so called backwards Muslim countries if you like that kind of legal system - oh wait, most people here calling for the death penalty constantly go on about how backward and un evovled such countries are.
 

Calaen

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Clearly you are an expert in such things Cal? No? then stop presenting that opinion as fact?

Facts against what? I simply said we don't have to go down the American route which you shout about everytime these threads come up, why waste money on appeals and prison time if they are guilty of serious crimes against innocent victims?
 

Ch3tan

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Because the courts are not 100% correct. You cannot execute someone unless there is not one shred of doubt.

Anyway my post was a reply to your previous post in which you psycho-analysed Venebles.
 

Calaen

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Just like Tierk, I am very glad you don't set any laws. Go and live in one of the so called backwards Muslim countries if you like that kind of legal system - oh wait, most people here calling for the death penalty constantly go on about how backward and un evovled such countries are.

Well I guess in your world people can run around fucking a kid atleast once and then possibly murder someone else after being released for good behaviour. And you'd still give them another chance, oh wait that does not sound backwards at all does it.
 

old.Tohtori

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Sure, lets just forget the fact he murdered a child when he was ten. You can't ignroe the fact he killed someone when he was ten and is now looking at child porn.

Now sit back and tell me this guy or any of the other sick fucks who take part in this kind of shit can be fixed. I'll tell you now they can't and the only way to guarantee protection for the people who need it most is to destroy them.

I'm not just talking about this guy. Neither were you.

You can't apply murder punishment to something else simply because they served a murder punishment before. Besides the point i made anyway; punishment given, served, done. Otherwise the punishment system is pointless.

And like i said, destroying them has no point when there's a lot more use for them.

And what you answered Ch3tan is your problem, you only see people who don't agree with you as some sicko defenders.
 

Calaen

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Because the courts are not 100% correct. You cannot execute someone unless there is not one shred of doubt.

Anyway my post was a reply to your previous post in which you psycho-analysed Venebles.

That was a quote :p

And I'm not talking about dubious decisions at all. I'm talking about 100% conviction, which there are a few of.
 

Ch3tan

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I'm not talking about the quote Cal, I'm talking about what you yourself typed.

As for what you think can happen in my world, what a stupid comment. I have stated previously in this thread that they should still be in jail. But carry on making sweeping generalisations to make you feel better.
 

Calaen

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I'm not just talking about this guy. Neither were you.

You can't apply murder punishment to something else simply because they served a murder punishment before. Besides the point i made anyway; punishment given, served, done. Otherwise the punishment system is pointless.

And like i said, destroying them has no point when there's a lot more use for them.

And what you answered Ch3tan is your problem, you only see people who don't agree with you as some sicko defenders.

What I'm trying to say Toh is that in this particular case, even though the were kids. They served their time and that is fair enough for the age they wer (although I don't agree with it) However upon leaving prison and being given new identities they were not allowed to form a relationship with someone without identifying themselves as murderers.

Now surely sending them both back out into the world and expecting them to be able to slip back into society, the only people they can then mingle with are people who are considered bad.
 

Calaen

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I'm not talking about the quote Cal, I'm talking about what you yourself typed.

As for what you think can happen in my world, what a stupid comment. I have stated previously in this thread that they should still be in jail. But carry on making sweeping generalisations to make you feel better.

Why should they still be in jail? They were charged as minors in our own courts. Surely these were the perfect pair to practice so called rehabilitation techniques on given their ages at the time of the initial crime?
 

old.Tohtori

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What I'm trying to say Toh is that in this particular case, even though the were kids. They served their time and that is fair enough for the age they wer (although I don't agree with it) However upon leaving prison and being given new identities they were not allowed to form a relationship with someone without identifying themselves as murderers.

Now surely sending them both back out into the world and expecting them to be able to slip back into society, the only people they can then mingle with are people who are considered bad.

Well that's stupid. If you're setting someone out in the world and tell them "you can only be with people if you say you're a murderer", ofcourse they'll either A: hang out with bad crowds(and thus probably recommit) or B: spend a LOT of time alone with their broken minds in overdrive, with all the internet at their fingertips.

We both know what can be found in 15 minutes on the net, imagine no social life due to court order.

They were equally broken by the system as they were by the parents and sounds more like they were sent out to do another crime on purpose.
 

Calaen

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Well that's stupid. If you're setting someone out in the world and tell them "you can only be with people if you say you're a murderer", ofcourse they'll either A: hang out with bad crowds(and thus probably recommit) or B: spend a LOT of time alone with their broken minds in overdrive, with all the internet at their fingertips.

We both know what can be found in 15 minutes on the net, imagine no social life due to court order.

They were equally broken by the system as they were by the parents and sounds more like they were sent out to do another crime on purpose.

Exactly, even going through our rehabilitation program, the parameters of their release were such that they could never be normal.

Could you imagine being with someone and how you would feel knowing that if you tell them the truth you may well be sentencing yourself to death? That's not going to be a nice situation to live with everyday of your life and is only going to push towards the wrong side of the law.
 

Krazeh

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Exactly, even going through our rehabilitation program, the parameters of their release were such that they could never be normal.

Could you imagine being with someone and how you would feel knowing that if you tell them the truth you may well be sentencing yourself to death? That's not going to be a nice situation to live with everyday of your life and is only going to push towards the wrong side of the law.

So which is it? That they can't be rehabilitated because there's something wrong with them or they can't be rehabilitated because society won't let them?
 

throdgrain

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Some people cant be rehabilitated, but some other people seem to be convinced they can, thus putting other lives in danger.
 

old.Tohtori

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So which is it? That they can't be rehabilitated because there's something wrong with them or they can't be rehabilitated because society won't let them?

Kinda the question i was going to ask, was going to say that if society doesn't give people a chance to reintegrate, ofcourse they will fail.

That's not rehabilitation, that's just a conditional release.
 

Krazeh

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Some people cant be rehabilitated, but some other people seem to be convinced they can, thus putting other lives in danger.

Do you actually have any real evidence for this or is it just something you've decided to be the case?
 

throdgrain

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ok then. It's all been said like 500 times already on this very thread, but perhaps you cant read, or you're just one of those agressive liberals that thinks everything will be alright in the end.

This person murdered a child. For a laugh with his mate. Then left the childs body on a railway line. No doubt the day or night before he and his mate had planned this, and said no problem the train will destroy the body, which is of course pretty much true, only it didnt work out that way for him.

I accept that he was under the age of responsibility, and therefore couldnt get a life sentence, or indeed the death sentence in some other countries.

He then does a short amount of time in the scale of things, and is let out. Fully aware of course that his crime is considered by most of his countrymen as one of the most terrible and despicable things in living memory.

But thats ok, he was let out because do-gooder prison keepers and psychiatrists decided that he was no longer a threat to anyone.

So a couple of years later he's convicted of possessing images of children being sexually attacked.

Does that seem to you a person whos been rehabilitated? A person who is no longer a threat to society? Well does it?

So, in your world, what do we do now?

Let me guess. Lock him up for a couple more years. Then let him out pronouncing him "cured".

Then he does something else, maybe murders another child. And what do you and your kind do then?

You blame the prison keepers, and society in general. Anyone but the perpertator himself, cos it cant be his fault, he had a bad childhood right?
 

Krazeh

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ok then. It's all been said like 500 times already on this very thread, but perhaps you cant read, or you're just one of those agressive liberals that thinks everything will be alright in the end.
Nope I can read very well, there hasn't however been any concrete evidence put forward to support any of the claims that there are people who can't be rehabilitated and should just be put to death instead of making any attempt to help them. And I also don't think that everything will be alright in the end, I just don't hold the view that we should ignore what causes people to do things they do or that we should execute them as a way of obtaining "justice".
This person murdered a child. For a laugh with his mate. Then left the childs body on a railway line. No doubt the day or night before he and his mate had planned this, and said no problem the train will destroy the body, which is of course pretty much true, only it didnt work out that way for him.
That's nothing more than conjecture on your part, you have no idea what was going through the heads prior to, during or after the attack. You've decided that they were perfectly rational individuals whose thought processes would be no different to yours and have therefore concluded that they would go through the rational steps of planning an attack and attempting to cover it up.
I accept that he was under the age of responsibility, and therefore couldnt get a life sentence, or indeed the death sentence in some other countries.
He then does a short amount of time in the scale of things, and is let out. Fully aware of course that his crime is considered by most of his countrymen as one of the most terrible and despicable things in living memory.
But thats ok, he was let out because do-gooder prison keepers and psychiatrists decided that he was no longer a threat to anyone.
And perhaps that was a mistake and that he truly wasn't ready to be released from prison. Doesn't mean that he would have never reach a point where he could be released from prison without being a risk to anyone.
So a couple of years later he's convicted of possessing images of children being sexually attacked.
Does that seem to you a person whos been rehabilitated? A person who is no longer a threat to society? Well does it?
No it doesn't seem to me that he's a person that's been rehabilitated, it doesn't however mean that he can't be rehabilitated. Do you have any information or records relating to the therapy and rehabilitation he recived in prison or after his release? Do you have any idea about what help he got in the years between the murder of James Bulger and the current day? If not, which I assume to be the most likely answer, how do you know if he recieved anywhere near the amount of rehabilitation he would need to be able to operate in a near normal fashion with society? Or have you just decided that he must have recieved enough rehabiliation, with no evidence of that fact, and therefore must be incurable?
And let's not forget, as Calaen has pointed out, that since his release he'll have been living in fear of his life because society is essentially a baying mob who wouldn't think twice about severely injuring/killing him if his identity ever became public. Do you honestly think that society doesn't have some responsibility for making it impossible for him to ever reintegrate?
So, in your world, what do we do now?
Let me guess. Lock him up for a couple more years. Then let him out pronouncing him "cured".
Yes, we lock him up until such a time that he can truly be deemed to not be a danger to the public, then if he is released he is watched and supported much more closely in an attempt to get him to reintegrate into society.
Then he does something else, maybe murders another child. And what do you and your kind do then?
Or perhaps with proper therapy and support he does manage to reintegrate into society and can perform some useful role?
You blame the prison keepers, and society in general. Anyone but the perpertator himself, cos it cant be his fault, he had a bad childhood right?
I've never said it wasn't his fault, of course he has to hold some responsibility for the act as he was the one who committed it. But to ignore the role that his childhood had on his actions screams of wanting nothing more than revenge and retribution, i.e. he killed a kid so you want to see him die regardless of the fact he was also a child. Also to pretend that society has no responsibility is just plain naive, society has created an atmosphere in which any final stage of his rehabilitation, i.e. reintegration into society, is made nearly impossible by the retards who think that it's morally acceptable to kill people as a form of vigilante justice.
 

Raven

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Facts against what? I simply said we don't have to go down the American route which you shout about everytime these threads come up, why waste money on appeals and prison time if they are guilty of serious crimes against innocent victims?

What happens when they are later found to be innocent, which happens far too often.
 

throdgrain

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Sorry, but you spent more time thinking how to answer my post in different sections than you did actually answering it.

Fairly typical I suspect. Nothing more to say. If you cant understand what I've said, you're either deliberately obtuse or a bit stupid. No idea which.
 

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