News Venables in Jail again

[old.Tohtori]

I think thats just bollocks toht. If there's water in the sky, that generally means it's raining. I think you're just taking a devils advocate point of view for the sake of it.

And if there's water in the ground, it could be that a firehydrant went pop

It's a fair point, we can't know, so you may be right, or it may be overhyped. But honestly it's neither here nor there so why argue over it.

If you notice, the title says "child porn", yet the article speaks of indecent pictures of children". Bit of a media thing there

 

[Bugz]

I have to point out Throd that it's "indecent pictures of children" which as i said could be anything from sex acts to half naked pictures of 15 year olds on facebook.

All speculation, of what pictures he had in his posession.

Also i don't think it's too far fetched that this guys sexual growth was stumped by being out of society during puberty. That could explain sexual interest in people of the age that he was taken out.

So ooone can speculate that he could be healed from homicidal tendencies, but not cured from a warped sexual image.

Louis Mably, prosecuting, said eight of the images were at level four, the second most serious category of images of child sex abuse. Two were level three, three were level two, and 44 were level one, the least serious, he added. The images involved children as young as two and some showed the rape of young girls.

So no - it isn't speculation, you're simply wrong.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So no - it isn't speculation, you're simply wrong.

Ah, missed that, my bad there. Wrong about the picture speculation then. Though your tone could be better.

 

[throdgrain]

Think more, pontificate on internet forums less.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Think more, pontificate on internet forums less.

No need for that. Said i was wrong on that part, you seemed to miss it too since you didn't point it out.

 

[Tom]

Because after committing the most terrible crime since Myra Hyndley the bloke gets away with an astonishingly light sentence, gets a new identity courtesy of the tax payer, then despite the loathing of pretty much the entire country he goes downloading child porn.

Lets just get some perspective there. I co-authored the Wiki article on the Moors murders and therefore have a fair understanding of what went on. Hindley's notoriety stems not from what she did, but from her attempts to gain freedom by soliciting the help of people such as Lord Longford, an intelligent and libertarian man. Hindley remained incarcerated not because of the gravity of her crimes, but because of a corrupt legal system whereby a vote-seeking politician was in charge of her fate. That element of corruption has now been removed, and rightly so.

Throughout history there have been people who have done far, far worse, and who today are almost entirely unknown.

People forget that at the time of his crime, Venables was a child. Not some monstrous pervert to be pilloried, but an abused child who for years had no moral guidance. Don't you think that as a society it speaks volumes of us that we'd rather castigate the individual, than look into ourselves to find out what caused him to do it?

 

[throdgrain]

It makes little difference Tom, the deed was done.

 

[Zenith.UK]

I have to point out Throd that it's "indecent pictures of children" which as i said could be anything from sex acts to half naked pictures of 15 year olds on facebook.

The details of the court case said they were level 4 (out of 5) which means...
Indecent photographs of children: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

In looking at the nature of the material the Sentencing Guidelines Council has categorised such material into five levels of seriousness with level five being the most serious.

Level one - Images of erotic posing, with no sexual activity,
Level two - non -penetrative sexual activities between children, or solo masturbation by a child;
Level three - non-penetrative sexual activity between adults and children;
Level four - penetrative sexual activity involving a child or children, or both children and adults;
Level five - sadism or involving the penetration of, or by, an animal.​

 

[Krazeh]

It makes little difference Tom, the deed was done.

So understanding what caused the deed to be done isn't something we should concern ourselves with? Even when the deed is committed by a child?

 

[throdgrain]

It's certainly nothing to do with the punishment for the offender.

 

[Tom]

Well this being the internet I should probably tell you to stfu and go and catch a disease or something, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Throddy

 

[Krazeh]

It's certainly nothing to do with the punishment for the offender.

I think it's got everything to do with punishment for the offender. Do you punish someone with severe mental problems in the same way as you punish someone who's perfectly mentally compentent? Punishment isn't a one size fits all concept and it needs to take into account the individual factors leading to the need to punish someone. Not to mention that the justice system isn't supposed to be simply about punishment, it's about rehabilitation as well and for that you certainly need to understand the cause behind the deed.

 

[throdgrain]

What are you on about? It was determined that they wenrt mental when they did that crime, and that they fully understood what they did.

Then this person gets done for something related after being let out far too early. Sometimes you can look into society and what caused the problems and all that blah blah, but that makes no difference to the fact that the thing was done, and that there was a related re-offence. I dont get your point at all. What do you think should be done with them?

 

[old.Tohtori]

What do you think should be done with them?

Treat them like any other criminal, according to laws, all things considered and rehabilitate if possible.

Punishment wise this seems to be happening.

 

[Lamp]

He should never have been let out in the first place. Child murderers should do life. Life should mean that...or if they want to save money, well, you know what prisons are like, accidents can happen....

 

[Fast]

Rehabilitate is a big part of this thread. Has Venables not had that chance already?

He was delt a shit hand, but some people are beyond repair.

 

[Calaen]

I have to point out Throd that it's "indecent pictures of children" which as i said could be anything from sex acts to half naked pictures of 15 year olds on facebook.

All speculation, of what pictures he had in his posession.

Also i don't think it's too far fetched that this guys sexual growth was stumped by being out of society during puberty. That could explain sexual interest in people of the age that he was taken out.

So ooone can speculate that he could be healed from homicidal tendencies, but not cured from a warped sexual image.

No mate the pictures are rated on a scale of how bad they were, and he had some pictures which are considered high level. The guy is broke, we can't fix people that want to rape or look at children in a sexual manner, so the simple answer is to remove them from the gene pool.

Alll they do is abuse kids who in turn alot of them grow up and abuse others.

 

[Zede]

Capital punishment has been around since the dawn of society, so lets say 5500 years. I believe it is human instinct to want murderers of this ilk quite simply, to die. We are a species who until recently were swinging in the trees, so dont get ahead of yourself thinking we are more evolved than we actually are.

these 2, hindly, sutcliffe et all - just kill them, no biggie.

 

[DaGaffer]

Capital punishment has been around since the dawn of society, so lets say 5500 years. I believe it is human instinct to want murderers of this ilk quite simply, to die. We are a species who until recently were swinging in the trees, so dont get ahead of yourself thinking we are more evolved than we actually are.

these 2, hindly, sutcliffe et all - just kill them, no biggie.

What a ridiculous argument. We've managed to give up other "instincts" since we came down from the trees like sniffing each other's arses and throwing shit at each other, so I think we can also move on from state-approved revenge killings. Having said that, given some of the neanderthal mutterings on this thread, maybe we haven't evolved as much as I like to think.

 

[Lamp]

state-approved revenge killings

that holds no more ground than saying its murder to kill a cow for food

there are plenty of countries in the world that have the death penalty. You can call it "state approved revenge killing" or you can call it "justice". Two sides of the same coin, and the argument does divide people. Personally, I think we should bring back capital punishment, and top of the list goes child murderers /rapists / serial child paedophile sex offenders. Whether its revenge state sactioned killing or not, if its law its law. Plenty of people object to the death penalty in the states, but that doesn't stop em from getting fried in the chair.

 

[Bullitt]

What a ridiculous argument. We've managed to give up other "instincts" since we came down from the trees like sniffing each other's arses and throwing shit at each other, so I think we can also move on from state-approved revenge killings. Having said that, given some of the neanderthal mutterings on this thread, maybe we haven't evolved as much as I like to think.

Re: the bit in bold, I don't think we've moved on from this 'instinct', i just think the method has changed somewhat...

 

[Ch3tan]

Plenty of people object to the death penalty in the states, but that doesn't stop em from getting fried in the chair.

Yes it does. Frequently. This argument has done the rounds here many times, so don't want to get into it too much, as you can search for the old threads.

The death penalty is not for the whole of the US, only a few states have it. It takes years and years to actually put someone to death, there are appeals, appeals, appeals, and more appeals to go through first. The cost is more than keeping someone locked up for life.

So all of you calling for the death penalty: Are you happy to pay higher taxes to fund the death penalty?

 

[DaGaffer]

that holds no more ground than saying its murder to kill a cow for food

Bollocks. I'm not even going to get into that particular line of horseshit.

there are plenty of countries in the world that have the death penalty. You can call it "state approved revenge killing" or you can call it "justice". Two sides of the same coin, and the argument does divide people. Personally, I think we should bring back capital punishment, and top of the list goes child murderers /rapists / serial child paedophile sex offenders. Whether its revenge state sactioned killing or not, if its law its law. Plenty of people object to the death penalty in the states, but that doesn't stop em from getting fried in the chair.

So because other countries fry their citizens we should as well? Very cogent argument, have a cookie.

So when these 10 year old children committed their crime (and I'm not defending what they did one iota), you'd have killed them would you? And would you have personally pulled the trigger on them? Would you fuck. People blithely talk about stringing other human beings up like its just another day's work; it isn't, and it dehumanises us to be a party to it.

Venables should be locked up for good because he's a recidivist and has proven his rehabilitation failed. I certainly think any crime you commit after being released for murder should mean straight back to jail to fulfill your original jail term, and I don't think they should have been let out in the first place, but that's a long way from putting down a ten year old.

 

[dysfunction]

AND Robert Thompson seems to have been rehabilitated as he has not been in the news lately...

 

[throdgrain]

He should never have been let out in the first place. Child murderers should do life. Life should mean that...or if they want to save money, well, you know what prisons are like, accidents can happen....

I'm of this opinion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No mate the pictures are rated on a scale of how bad they were, and he had some pictures which are considered high level. The guy is broke, we can't fix people that want to rape or look at children in a sexual manner, so the simple answer is to remove them from the gene pool.

Alll they do is abuse kids who in turn alot of them grow up and abuse others.

Yeah Bugz corected the picture thing already, and so did Zenith. People do love hunting for my mistakes

On the other bit, i disagree on a full 100% can't rehabilitate thing.

Killing is the most useless answer to anything as it serves no purpose.

 

[Calaen]

Killing is the most useless answer to anything as it serves no purpose.

In your opinion it does not serve a purpose. In mine it guarantees another nut job isn't going to be able to cause pain and hurt to some other child. How people can even begin to defend child molesters is beyond me. They get off on kids and nothing in the whole world is going to change that.

 

[Bugz]

You know,

There seems to be two sides in this discussion: No, killing is wrong, put them in prison and give them the chance to rehabilitate and Nuke the fuckers.

Why don't we meet half way and try aversion therapy and other therapies that aim at permanently changing how the mind works and thinks? Obviously this moves the discussion onto a tangent and I imagine the words Clockwork Orange will pop up every now and then but it's definitely food for thought.

 

[Gumbo]

I think that without fully understanding the context of either, you're forming that opinion prematurely.

Sorry to quote so late, but I've limited access to computers at the moment so it's hard to keep up, but puhleease?

Context!?

Was he writing a book about Child Porn just like Pete Townshend?

I know you love to poke an argument as much as the next man Tom, but under what context could known child killer Venables have been downloading and distributing child porn which wasn't for criminal intents.

Also, the limited number they found was because they stopped him in the process of destroying the evidence. We don't know just how much material he may have had at any time.

 

[Calaen]

You know,

There seems to be two sides in this discussion: No, killing is wrong, put them in prison and give them the chance to rehabilitate and Nuke the fuckers.

Why don't we meet half way and try aversion therapy and other therapies that aim at permanently changing how the mind works and thinks? Obviously this moves the discussion onto a tangent and I imagine the words Clockwork Orange will pop up every now and then but it's definitely food for thought.

We might as well get Derren brown in to hypnotise them and tell them they are normal.