News Venables in Jail again

[throdgrain]

I've never said it wasn't his fault, of course he has to hold some responsibility for the act as he was the one who committed it. But to ignore the role that his childhood had on his actions screams of wanting nothing more than revenge and retribution, i.e. he killed a kid so you want to see him die regardless of the fact he was also a child. Also to pretend that society has no responsibility is just plain naive, society has created an atmosphere in which any final stage of his rehabilitation, i.e. reintegration into society, is made nearly impossible by the retards who think that it's morally acceptable to kill people as a form of vigilante justice.

Sorry, I wanted to leave it there, but re-reading this, what the fuck does it mean?? Have you read it yourself?? He has to hold SOME responsibility? He fucking did it. What do you have to do to hold complete responsibility in your cosy world??

My post above states what I think about it. Where am I saying I want to see him die??

Morally acceptable? How do you think the childs parents feel? Tell you the truth, re-reading this, I have nothing but contempt for you and your shit attitudes where everything is someone elses fault and everything can be mended. It cant.

I bet you're one of the kids who said you wanted to be an astronaut when you were at school. Still waiting? I bet you feel cheated.

 

[Ch3tan]

He didn't say that Throd, stop putting words in his mouth to fit your views. We get it, you are very very right wing. But your views in this thread are as much assumption as anything Krazeh said.

Why is everyone who doesn't believe in the death sentance or is not baying for blood a liberal in your world? Maybe some people are able to look at things objectively, not purely emotionally.

Oh and answer my question please Throd, I asked twice now, for those that want the death penalty, if they are happy to pay more taxes to support it. Third time of asking now. Are you?

 

[throdgrain]

You havent asked me, but yes I'd be happy to pay for the death penalty, though it doesnt actually apply in this case anyway, unfortunately.

I think the whole argument is clutching at straws, and to be honest a bit contemptable. You have a child of two years old or whatever, who is stolen away by two scumbags and murdered horribly for no reason at all, and yet no of the posters on this thread seem to take that into account at all.

Its like that horrible story in the news today of them two people who starved thier child to death. I mean starved to death, yet somehow in our society the BBC does plenty of articles on who's fault it was. Whos fault?? It was the parents fault. Why do you not think anyone should take responsibility for thier actions?

As far as this death penalty thing goes, I believe that it is a good thing. I beleive that some people cannot be rehabilitated, and are just evil. There's no point in giving me any outraged arguments about it, that's what I beleive. On this occasion though, the filth who committed this crime were below age, and thus wouldnt have been eligible for it anyway, more the pity. I have said that a couple of times, though you and Tony Benn's best mate seem to want to ignore it.

Fuck it. You're not listening, only to what you want to hear, just the same as the greater part of this countris population.

And anyway, "he didnt say that." Didnt say what??

 

[Tom]

Interesting that you don't refer to them as children when they committed their crimes. Its either "person", or "scumbag(s)".

Its almost as if you don't want to admit that children can actually become murderers so easily. In certain African countries it happens all the time, and younger kids too.

 

[throdgrain]

How is that relevant Tom? Would you like me to go back and change all my posts? Wouldnt make any difference whatsoever.

I think I've actually lost the thread to be honest.

Half the people on this thread seem to be saying that its terrible that this "ex-child" (happy? ) was let out so soon , then did another horrible thing, and that its his fault, the other half appear to agree with the first half of that statement, but then beleive that it wasnt his fault, but someone elses.

Or did I get that wrong.

 

[nath]

As far as this death penalty thing goes, I believe that it is a good thing. I beleive that some people cannot be rehabilitated, and are just evil.

Are you speaking from a religious or psychological/psychiatric standpoint? If the former, well there's nothing more to discuss. If it's the latter, however, you're absolutely right that currently there are plenty of people who are beyond our means to help. That doesn't mean that in 20 years or whatever the situation won't be different, and surely the way to progress is to try and understand how these killers develop. Presumably (I'm no expert but it hasn't stopped other people in this thread) this is done by studying said killers and possibly actively trying to rehabilitate them.

Tell you what, throd, if people had your attitude on this about mental illness (can't be helped, fuck em) then my brother would be in a world of shit right now. Thankfully not everyone agreed and bi-polar meds have come an awfully long way, the difference is astonishing*. Perhaps if you understood how much things can change with medication or other means you'd be less inclined to write-off human beings who've committed some admittedly horrendous acts.


*I noticed this reads like my brother has done some bad stuff, but fortunately he hasn't - though the potential was there if his condition was left unchecked.

 

[Krazeh]

Sorry, I wanted to leave it there, but re-reading this, what the fuck does it mean?? Have you read it yourself?? He has to hold SOME responsibility? He fucking did it. What do you have to do to hold complete responsibility in your cosy world??

Right, so you don't think the fact that the pair of them were raised in highly abusive environments had any impact on his mental state or caused them to go out and do the things they did? These weren't normal 10 year old children raised in happy supportive family environments, they'd suffered years of violent abuse at the hands of their parents and their siblings. You honestly think that the people who fucked their heads up don't hold any responsibility for what happened?

If they'd been raised in a normal, supportive family environment then i'd quite happily agree that he should take full responsibility but that simply wasn't the case here was it?

My post above states what I think about it. Where am I saying I want to see him die??

So you've not implied at any point that you think they should have been executed for what they did? If not then I apologise but that's certainly not the vibe i've got from your posts.

Morally acceptable? How do you think the childs parents feel? Tell you the truth, re-reading this, I have nothing but contempt for you and your shit attitudes where everything is someone elses fault and everything can be mended. It cant.

What does how the child's parents have to do with the morality of killing someone? I'm sure I can never imagine how the parents of James Bulger felt at the time or continue to feel now but their pain doesn't make killing another human being acceptable. There's a reason the justice system doesn't determine punishments based on how the victim feels.

 

[Ch3tan]

Or did I get that wrong.

You got it wrong, you are reading what you want to see.

Not one person has said, as fas I am aware that rehabilitation is always successful. Nearly everyone has agreed that he should not have been let out yet.

the only argument here is that of death vs no death penalty, and the opinion that rehabilitation is not the answer.

You cal, and a few others choose to believe that anyone who doesn't want Venebles killed in hot blood thinks he has been rehabilitated or can be.

 

[Mey]

Classic case of the prison system not working, but like all home office things it fails to advance because of the stuborness to change.

There are some fantastic penologists out there who are coming up with some very interesting and creative uses of prison and indeed there has been some major sucesses. (Nottingham for example is now the biggest sex offenders prison in europe, because it works.)

 

[throdgrain]

You got it wrong, you are reading what you want to see.

Not one person has said, as fas I am aware that rehabilitation is always successful. Nearly everyone has agreed that he should not have been let out yet.

the only argument here is that of death vs no death penalty, and the opinion that rehabilitation is not the answer.

You cal, and a few others choose to believe that anyone who doesn't want Venebles killed in hot blood thinks he has been rehabilitated or can be.

Read my posts again Chet :/ And please explain your last paragraph I cant make head nor tail of it. Whats this "choose to beleive" stuff for a start, how patronizing can you be??

And you state that Cal and me think that anyone who doesnt think Venebles should be executed thinks he can be or has already been rehabilitated? What?? Where has anyone said that??

Apparently

the only argument here is that of death vs no death penalty, and the opinion that rehabilitation is not the answer.

OK for the record, although I must already have said it 3 or 4 times, the death penalty, were it in force in this country, would not have been applicable in this case as the crime was committed by children. Children who in my opinion were well aware of the rights and wrongs of the situation, but children all the same. So thats that one sorted, yes?

Is rehabilitation the answer? The second part of your statement. Well, it doesnt appear to have worked in the case of this person, for the reasons laid out at great length in this thread. I'm sure you can agree with that. My feeling is that the perpertrators of this crime should have had a much, much longer custodial sentence before even being considered to be being let out.

I think they deserved a much much longer sentence too.

@Nath - there's a lot of difference between being mentally ill or bi-polar and being a murderer. Lots of people of some kind of mental illness, they dont go around sadistically killing children. I dont believe a murderer is nescessarily ill either, your assertion appears to be that, if not my apologies. I've know at least two people in my life who have been tried for murder.

I just spent 10 minutes typing out what happened to them, and what they felt or appeared to feel about it, but I've deleted it, it's too accurate and personal. Thus my argument is somewhat diminished, but there's nothing I can do about that, other than to say niether of them were mentally ill.

 

[Calaen]

My main issue is that we are meant to be protecting the children and the innocent. No one can guarantee to me that rehab works 100% for child sex offenders, so as far as I am concerned we should not be taking the risk and letting them wander the streets.

Medication is all well and good when you have a problem that stops you living what is considered a normal life, however you can't force medication onto people or monitor their usage when they are left alone out in the real world.

 

[Bahumat]

Bahu, I asked earlier if people would be happy to pay more taxes to have the death penalty back - using the US as an example, it costs more to put someone to death than to imprison them for life. Not one person calling for the death penalty has answered this question yet.

Also as for overcrowding in prisons, that is not a real issue with the most violent and dangerous criminals, they will be jailed whatever space issues there are. The problem with overcrowding is for more minor offences that people should probably serve more time for.

Ahh I did not realise it cost more. Although is this definately true? And how does it cost so much? If the average prisoner costs £37k. That's £370k in 10 years which is not even a life sentence.

I am not sure where I stand regarding this now. If you are correct, it means us 'good' citizens would be losing out on the removal of scum.

 

[Gumbo]

The cost is in the endless appeals. Streamline that and make the family pay for the bullet, and you'll be getting somewhere...

 

[Raven]

I still think all this discussion is rather moot when you consider the amount of people who are wrongly convicted, some of whom you lot would like to see hang, You can't un-hang someone.

How would you feel about the death penalty if your brother/sister/child were wrongly convicted and then put to death and later found to be innocent? Collateral damage I suppose? Would you then want the true perpetrator to be hanged too? Or how about the judge? After all he has essentially killed an innocent person!

Things like this are not black and white. Even just one wrong conviction is enough reason to not have the death penalty.

 

[nath]

I dont believe a murderer is nescessarily ill either, your assertion appears to be that, if not my apologies.

That's not what I meant. What I was saying is that if there were an attitude of "can't fix them so don't try" with mental illness, there would be a lot more suffering than there currently is. I'm not suggesting that these two are mentally ill but what they did was *so* extreme, there must be a reason they were capable of such an act, be it psychological or psychiatric. If there's a reason, there's potential to understand it and with that comes the ability to attempt to rehabilitate and, even better, prevent further similar atrocities that may have been committed by other people in similar situations.

Essentially my point is that just because what these two did is inconceivably horrific, doesn't mean that *understanding* what possessed them to do it is a bad thing. Understanding and condoning are two entirely different things.

 

[Calaen]

Essentially my point is that just because what these two did is inconceivably horrific, doesn't mean that *understanding* what possessed them to do it is a bad thing. Understanding and condoning are two entirely different things.

Problem with that Nath is that the base resposne is to blame their up bringing.

I had a pretty shit upbringing single parent mother many potential step fatehrs/boyfriends in my mothers life a heroin addict Uncle living with us, many of them abusive to my mother and treating me and my sister like shit.

I watched movies I shouldn't have watched and spent alot of time sat at a computer. But I never had any urge to go out and do that kind of thing. Myself and my sister have turned out ok.

So until they start trynig to find the real probelm with these people instead of using it was their upbringing as an excuse we really are not going to make inroads.

 

[nath]

Problem with that Nath is that the base resposne is to blame their up bringing.

I had a pretty shit upbringing single parent mother many potential step fatehrs/boyfriends in my mothers life a heroin addict Uncle living with us, many of them abusive to my mother and treating me and my sister like shit.

I watched movies I shouldn't have watched and spent alot of time sat at a computer. But I never had any urge to go out and do that kind of thing. Myself and my sister have turned out ok.

So until they start trynig to find the real probelm with these people instead of using it was their upbringing as an excuse we really are not going to make inroads.

Well obviously we want some sort of analysis that goes a bit deeper than "meh, their parents were shit0x". I'm no expert so I don't know how they would approach that, I just know it's certainly worth trying.

 

[Marc]

Problem with that Nath is that the base resposne is to blame their up bringing.

I had a pretty shit upbringing single parent mother many potential step fatehrs/boyfriends in my mothers life a heroin addict Uncle living with us, many of them abusive to my mother and treating me and my sister like shit.

I watched movies I shouldn't have watched and spent alot of time sat at a computer. But I never had any urge to go out and do that kind of thing. Myself and my sister have turned out ok.

So until they start trynig to find the real probelm with these people instead of using it was their upbringing as an excuse we really are not going to make inroads.

Its not an excuse though. There is no such thing as an evil gene and it is reasonable to suspect that his upbringing had a big part to play in his predisposition to commit such horrific violence. This is an individual who was failed by those whose job it was to ensure that he turned out to be a decent person.. his parents.

 

[throdgrain]

No evil? We can have this conversation over and over I expect.

Like I said, I personally know two people who have been tried for murder, niether of them have psycosis or whatever, they are just people who do not give a fuck.

I cant back any of this up with explainations so I'm signing off this thread, but I've known these people all my life and to suggest that they needed medical help is laughable

 

[Marc]

No evil? We can have this conversation over and over I expect.

Like I said, I personally know two people who have been tried for murder, niether of them have psycosis or whatever, they are just people who do not give a fuck.

I cant back any of this up with explainations so I'm signing off this thread, but I've known these people all my life and to suggest that they needed medical help is laughable

If this is aimed at me, im saying people arent just born evil, they are shaped by experiences. James Bulgers killers were 10 which is why I am of the opinion 100% that it was their upbringing that played the part in making them killers.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well i'm gonna make a sack-emptying statement of my views;

- I think the kids upbringing did affect them. They also had the opportunity(lack of which often saves young peeps from doing bad things). No excuse ofcourse, deed done, but we should study why.

- The individual is still flawed, as shown by interest in child pornography, but it's still better then him murdering again. His follow up crime should be treated as a new crime, not a murder + crime. Different faults.

- Rehabilitation is an option to a point, at a certain point it's not anymore. At which point;
-- Death penalty is useless as it stops there, there are better uses for the individuals deemed not fit for society(labour, testing, whatnot).

- Death penalty is also flawed since someone might, even on a 0.01% chance, be innocent.

Think that's it, will throw another bullet if i notice i missed some topic relevant thing.

 

[throdgrain]

Thing is , if you are done for murder in this country you are supposed to be on licence even when let out, and if you do anything else you're back inside.

Maybe because these kids were under age it changes something , dont know.

 

[old.Tohtori]

At the end of the day i say it's up to the law to do what the law does, i leave it to the judges etc who have dedicated their lives to judging these things, but the above is just an opinion of how i would.

 

[Calaen]

Its not an excuse though. There is no such thing as an evil gene and it is reasonable to suspect that his upbringing had a big part to play in his predisposition to commit such horrific violence. This is an individual who was failed by those whose job it was to ensure that he turned out to be a decent person.. his parents.

Yes and I have no doubt in some cases this might be true, but there are people out there who have a good upbringing who also turn out wrong. I mean I'm no scientist but I would assume it's similar to sexuality, certain things turn you on and get your blood pumping. Unfortunately for some it isn't men or women.

 

[Marc]

Yes and I have no doubt in some cases this might be true, but there are people out there who have a good upbringing who also turn out wrong. I mean I'm no scientist but I would assume it's similar to sexuality, certain things turn you on and get your blood pumping. Unfortunately for some it isn't men or women.

But in your previous post you said it wasnt their upbringing that caused them to do this and that the authorities should look into what caused them to do this :S

 

[Calaen]

But in your previous post you said it wasnt their upbringing that caused them to do this and that the authorities should look into what caused them to do this :S

Yes but what I meant was that after it happened everything about the whole case was simply about how they were brought up and the fact they watched Childs Play. When there is clearly more to it than that, it certainly helps the way they develop their desire to harm at a faster rate than others. But deep down ther is something wrong with the people anyway.

There are thousands of kids every day being brought up in homes with no fathers and bad mothers, who are allowed to watch 18 rated movies and play video games about killing people. Yet we don't have all of these kids running around kidnapping and murdering people.

I am firmly of the belief that some people are just evil.

 

[nath]

I am firmly of the belief that some people are just evil.

Explain that - when you say "just evil" what specifically does that mean?

 

[throdgrain]

I dont know whether the word is correctly used, but I would concur that some people just dont give a fuck, and cannot see the consequences of thier own actions. And some people just like hurting other people.

 

[Calaen]

Explain that - when you say "just evil" what specifically does that mean?

It's very difficult. More so because I don't proclaim to be very articulate

However I wil try.

I see people like the bulger killers as something that is broken, as I said earlier I get turned on by females, some guys like men, this isn't because of how they are brought up at all. You can see young teenagers who clearly already know what their own sexual orientation is and you can't change that with upbringing.

Some people like doing animals and cars and everything else you can think of, so it's only natural (yet very un natural for what I consider a normal person) for people to get off on torturing/raping/murdering people. The problem is spotting these people because often they show no signs of being any different from other people, until of course their own desires take hold of them and they commit some form of offence.

There may well be people walking around who have thoughts of such horrors but decide not to step over the line. But in the end it all comes down to an individual choice yes or no, right or wrong (in their own mind, not necessarily what they have been brough up to beleive is right and wrong). Which is why I don't buy it's 100% of the upbringing that is the issue.

Everyday there are people who are just simply angry/short tempered and aggressive, I doubt it is simply because of their childhood, some people just simply like to be in control of everything the do and feel and that is why the human mind is so complex, because non of us 100% understand why anyone else does something, that in our own mind would be deemed stupid/illegal/or just plain wrong.

Anyway I hope that kinda explains what my view is and why I think like I do

I guess to summarise it would be that every single one of us is different and everyone tries to get as much of whatever it is that makes them tingle. Unfortunately it's human nature for us to all be different and all want different things, and how we get those things also varies from person to person. Some people will work hard, some people will lie and cheat and there are others who will commit murder.

 

[Calaen]

Did I just kill a thread

Damn you Nath!!!!