News Tottenham riots

[Corran]

Well, anyone who would be willing to kill another person due to loss of material bullcrap, need to be removed from the genepool along with all those who would cause said loss of material bullcrap.

Only fair right?

Kill or be killed i'm willing to accept, but kill or lose a tv i'm not.

And when do you decide you are at risk of being killed... a person doesnt need a weapon to kill you in your own home. Anyone that breaks into your home is clearly a danger to yourself as you dont know how far their criminality actually goes. As such any action is reasonable action.

Why should I lose my property to some shit that doesnt want to earn the right to have it? It a civil liberty to defend what is yours, and only a criminal would think it is ok to steal without a comeback

 

[Access Denied]

And when do you decide you are at risk of being killed... a person doesnt need a weapon to kill you in your own home. Anyone that breaks into your home is clearly a danger to yourself as you dont know how far their criminality actually goes. As such any action is reasonable action.

Why should I lose my property to some shit that doesnt want to earn the right to have it? It a civil liberty to defend what is yours, and only a criminal would think it is ok to steal without a comeback

I think it depends on the cicumstances. If somone breaks into my house while I'm there they're in for a world of pain regardless. However that's as far as it will go unless they actually attack me. They do that and all bets are off.

 

[Gwadien]

I meant, shoot to kill? - wouldn't you rather shoot to injure.. that's what I was getting at

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think it depends on the cicumstances. If somone breaks into my house while I'm there they're in for a world of pain regardless. However that's as far as it will go unless they actually attack me. They do that and all bets are off.

Quite, if you're home and someone breaks in. A bit of slapping and throwing them out is fine. Even waving a bat as a deterrent, fine by me. If they attack you, basic fight rules apply; fight until they stop or win and use any advantage you can in your own home.

I don't approve of shooting someone who is walking away with your TV though, it's overkill. Literally. The main point being; it's not ok to kill someone, or cause them lifelong disabilities, because they were going to take your crap.

About not knowing how dangerous someone is? You don't. Hell, i don't know how dangerous that hobo in my bus is, but i'm not going to batter him and throw him out of the bus just because they might shiv someone.

Might does not mean it's right.

 

[Corran]

Quite, if you're home and someone breaks in. A bit of slapping and throwing them out is fine. Even waving a bat as a deterrent, fine by me. If they attack you, basic fight rules apply; fight until they stop or win and use any advantage you can in your own home.

I don't approve of shooting someone who is walking away with your TV though, it's overkill. Literally. The main point being; it's not ok to kill someone, or cause them lifelong disabilities, because they were going to take your crap.

About not knowing how dangerous someone is? You don't. Hell, i don't know how dangerous that hobo in my bus is, but i'm not going to batter him and throw him out of the bus just because they might shiv someone.

Might does not mean it's right.

Someone on a bus isnt a criminal, someone that has broken into you property is... there is a difference in the mentality of a law abiding citizen and a criminal, in that a criminal is in general more likely to cause harm.

You taking two completely unrelated situations and trying to relate them.

 

[Chilly]

Judges can and will let you off for killing a burglar if there is a reasonable chance he might have killed or tried to kill you or family. It's actually quite specific and gives judges lots of discretion, which is exactly how it should be, IMO. As soon as a burglar turns around and tries to run away, he's not fair game, though.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You taking two completely unrelated situations and trying to relate them.

They both relate to uncertainty of someones possible aggression.

If you attack someone, or better yet shoot them, without even seeing if indeed they are aggressive, you should be cast in the same damn group.

You were claiming that everyone who breaks into your home is a danger to you, as if the breaking and entering is a definitive reason to shoot someone on the CHANCE they might be axemurderers.

As i originally said; anyone willing to kill another for stealing your stuff. I didn't say anyone willing to kill another for protection of injury.

 

[Ctuchik]

England needs a lot more activity centers for kids and people to go to (hell not just England, all countries do).

Being bored, ignored or mistrusted does shit like this in the end.

We had similar (but no where near as bad) as this where i live, and the council opened up 1 activity center and helped a group of youths start a second and the crime rates for stuff they would normally be involved in pretty much stopped.

People in these situations needs to feel like someone cares, and one of the best ways bar actually fixing them a job is to give them somewhere to go and have a laugh.

And another thing most countries needs to work on is the way they treat immigrants, stuffing them in the same run down area of the town and expecting them to adapt is not the way to go.

It's just as much our responsibility to make them feel welcome as it's their responsibility to adapt to their new country.

But neither of this is possible if you have dedicated areas for immigrants.

Spread them out, be nice to them and get them involved in the area and much of the related problems will go away.

And very rarely are they actually "stealing" any jobs because they are the only ones accepting the jobs they get offered!

How the hell can they steal a shitty job cleaning public toilets when NONE of the "white" kids apply for them, or say no when they do get offered?

The biggest problem with these riots isn't the ones doing the rioting, it's us sitting on our fat arses complaining about it and then someone else to fix it.

If people are really concerned about this they would step up and try to do something about it.

Personally i volunteer on one of the above activity centers, it's not much and it's certainly not hard work but it is making a difference as small as it is.

P.S: No my previous post about gassing them was not meant to be taken seriously. I was merely maintaining my reputation as the forum idiot...

So apologies to anyone offended by that one...


Right, now i got a headache, thinking hurts!

 

[- English -]

England needs a lot more activity centers for kids and people to go to (hell not just England, all countries do).

Being bored, ignored or mistrusted does shit like this in the end.

We had similar (but no where near as bad) as this where i live, and the council opened up 1 activity center and helped a group of youths start a second and the crime rates for stuff they would normally be involved in pretty much stopped.

People in these situations needs to feel like someone cares, and one of the best ways bar actually fixing them a job is to give them somewhere to go and have a laugh.

And another thing most countries needs to work on is the way they treat immigrants, stuffing them in the same run down area of the town and expecting them to adapt is not the way to go.

It's just as much our responsibility to make them feel welcome as it's their responsibility to adapt to their new country.

But neither of this is possible if you have dedicated areas for immigrants.

Spread them out, be nice to them and get them involved in the area and much of the related problems will go away.

And very rarely are they actually "stealing" any jobs because they are the only ones accepting the jobs they get offered!

How the hell can they steal a shitty job cleaning public toilets when NONE of the "white" kids apply for them, or say no when they do get offered?

The biggest problem with these riots isn't the ones doing the rioting, it's us sitting on our fat arses complaining about it and then someone else to fix it.

If people are really concerned about this they would step up and try to do something about it.

Personally i volunteer on one of the above activity centers, it's not much and it's certainly not hard work but it is making a difference as small as it is.

P.S: No my previous post about gassing them was not meant to be taken seriously. I was merely maintaining my reputation as the forum idiot...

So apologies to anyone offended by that one...


Right, now i got a headache, thinking hurts!

My counter argument to this is first hand. I never grew up going to groups or youth centres and other things which you suggest to pamper these rioters, and I believe I have grown up to be a good citizen. How? I had good parents, who taught me roles and responsibilities on how to be a good citizen. My parents have always been very poor, my mother has been unable to work for 20 years, and my father had a very very poor income, yet as a family they raised 4 children including me, who have all grown up to be responsible adults.

I dont believe the answer to this is all these activity centres, youth groups. I'm not saying they are a bad thing, but I dont believe they're the answer to the problem. If you ask me, it starts at the top. Parenting. Theres far too many youth pregnancies, single parents, men and women who don't know how to keep their particulars in their pants.

I'm going political now, as I believe its important for me to mention this. Labour have created a culture of these type of people. It has become a career to have kids, rather than get educated and make a career for onesself. This benefit driven age needs to stop, and thankgod the tories are taking a harder stance on it, otherwise if you ask me, the rioting will get worse in the generations to come. The last 13 years have been a labour government (minus this first tory year). Wonder how most the rioters are teans, early 20's? They have been brought up by this lazy culture/career whatever you wanna call it. Also notice how most the areas affected are mainly labour constituences.

 

[Himse]

My counter argument to this is first hand. I never grew up going to groups or youth centres and other things which you suggest to pamper these rioters, and I believe I have grown up to be a good citizen. How? I had good parents, who taught me roles and responsibilities on how to be a good citizen. My parents have always been very poor, my mother has been unable to work for 20 years, and my father had a very very poor income, yet as a family they raised 4 children including me, who have all grown up to be responsible adults.

I dont believe the answer to this is all these activity centres, youth groups. I'm not saying they are a bad thing, but I dont believe they're the answer to the problem. If you ask me, it starts at the top. Parenting. Theres far too many youth pregnancies, single parents, men and women who don't know how to keep their particulars in their pants.

I'm going political now, as I believe its important for me to mention this. Labour have created a culture of these type of people. It has become a career to have kids, rather than get educated and make a career for onesself. This benefit driven age needs to stop, and thankgod the tories are taking a harder stance on it, otherwise if you ask me, the rioting will get worse in the generations to come. The last 13 years have been a labour government (minus this first tory year). Wonder how most the rioters are teans, early 20's? They have been brought up by this lazy culture/career whatever you wanna call it. Also notice how most the areas affected are mainly labour constituences.

Plus bloody 1.

99.9% of the population are perfectly average citizens, just a few who spoil it.

 

[old.Osy]

Daily Mail title:

0.1% of Brits looting and causing mayhem.

Oh yeah, sure.

 

[Huntingtons]

(...) there is a difference in the mentality of a law abiding citizen and a criminal, in that a criminal is in general more likely to cause harm.

i resent these accusations! im a criminal, and i know alot in here are criminal and i wont be put in this catagory of violent people.

Violent people are generaly more likely to cause harm. causing harm to another person is crime. Theres alot of different ways to do crime...

and English is dumb for thinking that political parties reign has anything to do with this.

 

[JingleBells]

Government should do something arbitrary and disproportionate about rioters | Facebook

 

[Access Denied]

English is dumb for thinking that political parties reign has anything to do with this.

I disagree. All this shit happened while Labour was in power. LABOUR policies. Conservatives are trying to sort out the mess labour left us in. Whether or not the cons would have left us in the same mess had they been in power all those years is debatable but English certainly isn't dumb for pointing out an inescapable fact.

 

[Corran]

i resent these accusations! im a criminal, and i know alot in here are criminal and i wont be put in this catagory of violent people.

Violent people are generaly more likely to cause harm. causing harm to another person is crime. Theres alot of different ways to do crime...

and English is dumb for thinking that political parties reign has anything to do with this.

We been discussing someone that will happily break into another persons property and steal things... not someone that downloads a random movie or tv show!

 

[Chronictank]

If you want to get political you need to look hard at the last government who took absolute liberties... with our liberties.

Nice cop-out
Forgot the tories supported those policies too? in fact you will find they wanted to go further

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh Corran btw, sorry if i sounded irate before, was having smoe "issues" at work and was a bit on the aggro side when i wrote it

that being said;

We been discussing someone that will happily break into another persons property and steal things... not someone that downloads a random movie or tv show!

I wouldn't put breaking and entering in the harming kind of criminal category. Stealing a purse, now that is a step away from violence, but usually B&E is supposed to be done when no one is homesies.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Although, on the above, i don't know how british B&E "artists" work, so might be a cultural viewpoint difference.

 

[megadave]

"The IPCC has announced it may have "inadvertently" led journalists to believe Mark Duggan shot at police"

Inadvertently my arse, they know exactly what they're doing when they spin stories to the press.

 

[Helme]

I disagree. All this shit happened while Labour was in power. LABOUR policies. Conservatives are trying to sort out the mess labour left us in. Whether or not the cons would have left us in the same mess had they been in power all those years is debatable but English certainly isn't dumb for pointing out an inescapable fact.

Don't be an idiot. The conservatives in power currently are doing their very best to worsen the situation by removing what little these people have. This isn't saying that Labour policies aren't responsible, they very much are but if you honestly believe that things are going to be better under the shitheels in power now - wow you're deluded.

 

[caLLous]

They're not doing their best to worsen anything they are trying to deal with the combination of the shitstorm that they have inherited from Labour and the general recession. It's certainly not going to get better any time soon but that's not the tories' fault.

 

[MYstIC G]

*Twaddle*

Don't be an idiot, you can't give people things if you can't afford to pay for them.

 

[- English -]

Nice cop-out
Forgot the tories supported those policies too? in fact you will find they wanted to go further

Labour took hundreds of our liberties away, don't get me wrong, some are good imo, but some are invasive.

 

[Helme]

Don't be an idiot, you can't give people things if you can't afford to pay for them.

Apparently we can put them in jail for several years however? Money well-spent I'm sure.

 

[- English -]

Don't be an idiot, you can't give people things if you can't afford to pay for them.

Exactly, and this culture that Labour created means people are living way above their means. Get real.

 

[MYstIC G]

Apparently we can put them in jail for several years however? Money well-spent I'm sure.

Given the choice, since this is supposed to be a democracy, that's the option I would want the government to spend my contributions on.

All that has happened is once again shift the line in the sand at which the police/etc will do anything towards the more obscene end of crime.

Anyone else ever rang the police and basically gotten the "sorry, nothing doing" response?

Everyone bleating the "but they can't help it" line needs to fuck right off. We've had far too much "spare the rod" and now we've got the "spoilt children".

Bring on the cuts. Squeeze the fucking margins. Time for people to spend the money they get on food and rent as supposed to cigarettes and booze.

 

[megadave]

People aren't actually trying to excuse the actions of rioters and looters, they're trying to understand them so they can attempt to rectify the problems that caused people to go rioting and looting in the first place. Surely solving these fundamental problems is better than sticking people in jail and letting the problems continue and worsen?

 

[MYstIC G]

If you've got a rat running around your kitchen do you want to understand the rat or get rid of the rat?

 

[Helme]

No, because looking at America increasingly harsh sentencing and wider laws catching more people for minor things lead to a very successful country. It's also a great way to make money if you own a few prisons. 700 out of every 100,000 is a great way to maintain a country.

You might not like the reasons they are rioting, but the best bet of making sure it doesn't happen again is to look at why they're doing it, and it's hardly because they are spoiled. Britain has the worst social mobility in Europe, that should scare you. You've got serious issues with schools, coupled with a lack of affordable housing located in areas with actual work - which is also rare.

To fix these problems, it requires more spending. Yes you're in a bad situation economically as a country, however you'll be in a much worse place if you do not spend. I'm talking a violent revolution here, because these people aren't just going to take being ignored forever - and whatever comes out of that, it'll be worse than whatever you can imagine now.

There's some light in that more government spending is probably the only thing that will end this recession, because the private markets investing surely won't going by what they've done so far.


edit: You're going to start calling them rats now? Really? History really does seem to repeat itself, all you need now is a charismatic leader with a 'final solution'. We've got the rest, blaming immigrants and the poor for all the problems, a shitty economy with lots of debt and dreams of reclaiming an Empire.

 

[DaGaffer]

If you've got a rat running around your kitchen do you want to understand the rat or get rid of the rat?

I want to get rid of the rat, but I really to make sure I don't get more rats.