News Tottenham riots

[MYstIC G]

They deserve to be punished, but no human being deserves to have their 'human rights' (however they are quantified) stripped away in that way. We might as well start hitting each other over the head with rocks again if that's how the world is going to go.

Human rights are a "concept" and nothing more. You only have them for as long as someone decides not to cave your skull in with a rock.

 

[eksdee]

No, I am not. I am for people being taught to respect their community and learn the value of personal freedom and property.

I can't remember where it was but I think it was somewhere in luton where they had stacks of community projects on the go and it had one of the lowest crime rate of any shitty post war housing estates in the country.

ofc if people refuse to be part of the community or decide they want to wreck it then they should be removed from that community and any benefits they may receive should be stopped. Why should we pay (out of our taxes) for scum to just destroy stuff.

Of course I agree with parts of what you're saying, and I see where you're coming from that all of this is wrong and paying taxes to support people who don't value the help they get is frustrating. What I'm getting at however, is that by responding with intimidation and violence to intimidation and violence will only exacerbate the problem. It has been proven time and time again throughout history that this is the case.

I honestly don't think that most of these people (of course there is always an extreme minority that won't fit to this) DO want to be a part of civilised society. The problem is they feel alienated, powerless, disaffected. Unfortunately the manifestation of this has been utterly negative and terribly destructive and I don't support that in the slightest. However, with all that in mind, take the example of violent families as an example - violent parents were often abused themselves as children, the same rings true in society in general. People are shaped by their experiences and the things that go on around them, if we simply aim to intimidate these people and press them back with violence then what are they expected to learn?

Round them up, make them clear up the mess they have caused, make them work to repay the debt they have caused society, sure. But that isn't enough. These people need to be educated, but most importantly made to feel valued in our society and we need to understand what it is that has made them feel so marginalised and alienated that the only response they could find is violence. We need to move forwards from this, not sidewards.

 

[Huntingtons]

im backing you eskdee, and im scared that so many "middle/upper-middle class" people here have the opinions displayed so far.

So few realize how deep this problem runs and should instead be ashamed and scared that society, which they are apart of for good and for bad, has failed in so many ways

 

[eksdee]

utter bullshit. These riots are primarily about people wanting to destroy stuff and steal. They don't vote because they don't care, they aren't disaffected they are just not interested. If they were disaffected then they would do something meaningful about it.

Would they though? Apathy is a response, not a state of being that comes about from nothing at all.

 

[Mabs]

Human rights are a "concept" and nothing more. You only have them for as long as someone decides not to cave your skull in with a rock.

i know its the US, but its still true

‪YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS - George Carlin‬‏ - YouTube

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

The real question is, why are the parents not keeping the kids home? Even at 17, my dad would have been on me like a hawk to stay home and if he'd found out I was involved, he'd kick the shit out of me ....

It's not the big corps or chain stores I feel for, it's the poor bastards that work for them. Can't make rent etc, things are not insured, cars / homes burnt down people and small businesses have lost everything.

Punishment should be heavy fines (If underage, fine the parents and bay-lift assets) and heavy community service. Prison and fines for ring leaders ...

However, measures should have been taken after the first night to keep this under control. It's peoples lives at stake, rubber pullets, tear gas and the army should have been used when it started to escalate.

 

[- English -]

I can imagine the parents were out with the kids causing problems

 

[DaGaffer]

@dafagger I dont think it would affect me in the slightest if people lost their hands. It wouldn't affect 99.9% of people, as they are good hard working people who worked for their living. These yobs who have done this deserve to be punished HARD - to stop them doing it again. As one stated above, there is no respect, implement some fear. Prison is a walk for them, they probably have better lives in there.

I know it won't happen, but something has to be done. But once agian, it would be nice to hear your opinion on such punishments, since like eksdee, i've yet to read it.

That one line says it all, because all you can think of is "prison too easy", without thinking of the flipside, "real life pretty shit". This is my point, throwing more people in jail, creating new offences, even creating harsher punishments, is easy, but in the long run you're on a loser because you get ever decreasing returns for more and more investment in the "justice" system. You have to address the other side of the coin as well, and that's hard. These looters are appalling low-life scumbags, but we as a society have basically said we're prepared to have a significant number of badly-educated, non-working, anti-social wasters in our midst. They didn't spring up from nowhere, we created them, through decades of bad schools, bad housing, bad policing, and bad socialisation. Sure some of them would always be scum not matter we did, but most of those kids out on the streets wouldn't be if they had to get up for work the next morning, or if they thought their parents would even notice if they were out.

Its not just about police and punishment, its about everything.

You say people missing hands wouldn't affect you, but it would, because you're effectively signing up to a society that's put state-sponsored violence at its heart. You can't grow hands back when the police get it wrong, and they will, because they always do.

None of this means I don't think the fuckers shouldn't be given serious jail time and that we shouldn't turn the water cannons on them, because society has to protect itself right here and now, but unless you want to have riots every summer, you have to address the root of the problem, not use the criminal justice system to stick a plaster over it.

 

[Mabs]

That one line says it all, because all you can think of is "prison too easy", without thinking of the flipside, "real life pretty shit". This is my point, throwing more people in jail, creating new offences, even creating harsher punishments, is easy, but in the long run you're on a loser because you get ever decreasing returns for more and more investment in the "justice" system. You have to address the other side of the coin as well, and that's hard. These looters are appalling low-life scumbags, but we as a society have basically said we're prepared to have a significant number of badly-educated, non-working, anti-social wasters in our midst. They didn't spring up from nowhere, we created them, through decades of bad schools, bad housing, bad policing, and bad socialisation. Sure some of them would always be scum not matter we did, but most of those kids out on the streets wouldn't be if they had to get up for work the next morning, or if they thought their parents would even notice if they were out.

Its not just about police and punishment, its about everything.

You say people missing hands wouldn't affect you, but it would, because you're effectively signing up to a society that's put state-sponsored violence at its heart. You can't grow hands back when the police get it wrong, and they will, because they always do.

None of this means I don't think the fuckers shouldn't be given serious jail time and that we shouldn't turn the water cannons on them, because society has to protect itself right here and now, but unless you want to have riots every summer, you have to address the root of the problem, not use the criminal justice system to stick a plaster over it.

that cuts both ways, can lead a horse to water and all that, if they just dont give a shit then what can u do
take away the crutch they rely on and then they might get better, social security etc are too cushy to overlook currently

 

[DaGaffer]

that cuts both ways, can lead a horse to water and all that, if they just dont give a shit then what can u do
take away the crutch they rely on and then they might get better, social security etc are too cushy to overlook currently

Sorry, I just don't buy that argument. Social Welfare in the UK is a fraction of the kind of money you get in other EU countries (like here in Ireland). Being on the dole in the UK is no picnic. As I said, some of them will always be scum, but a lot could be "saved", or if not them, at least their children.

 

[rynnor]

That one line says it all, because all you can think of is "prison too easy", without thinking of the flipside, "real life pretty shit". This is my point, throwing more people in jail, creating new offences, even creating harsher punishments, is easy, but in the long run you're on a loser because you get ever decreasing returns for more and more investment in the "justice" system. You have to address the other side of the coin as well, and that's hard. These looters are appalling low-life scumbags, but we as a society have basically said we're prepared to have a significant number of badly-educated, non-working, anti-social wasters in our midst. They didn't spring up from nowhere, we created them, through decades of bad schools, bad housing, bad policing, and bad socialisation. Sure some of them would always be scum not matter we did, but most of those kids out on the streets wouldn't be if they had to get up for work the next morning, or if they thought their parents would even notice if they were out.

I think its too early for this kind of debate - we need to get things calmed down first and its tough to be objective in the middle of things.

 

[Raven]

I don't think anyone truly wants to see people getting their hands cut off for theft, not if they gave it any real thought.

They do need to increase punishment to those that are not willing to learn to behave in a civilised society.

 

[Mabs]

Sorry, I just don't buy that argument. Social Welfare in the UK is a fraction of the kind of money you get in other EU countries (like here in Ireland). Being on the dole in the UK is no picnic. As I said, some of them will always be scum, but a lot could be "saved", or if not them, at least their children.

really ?
so everyone on benefit is fighting tooth and nail to improve their lot ?
or are just some, while rest sit on their sofa watching drivel on tv ?
some places have 2nd and 3rd generation on dole, and they dont care . now im not saying its all their fault, but its hardly optimal is it ?

 

[- English -]

I don't think anyone truly wants to see people getting their hands cut off for theft, not if they gave it any real thought.

They do need to increase punishment to those that are not willing to learn to behave in a civilised society.

This is what I hoped to get at. The hands cutting off scenario was an example of how Saudi stop theft and such cases. What we have in this country is a weak justice system which needs tougher punishments as what Raven just said.

 

[Mabs]

I don't think anyone truly wants to see people getting their hands cut off for theft, not if they gave it any real thought.

They do need to increase punishment to those that are not willing to learn to behave in a civilised society.

the punishment scales from "nothing at all " to chinese/burman/etc levels
noone is saying it needs to be that far right, but its got a bit too far left of middle

 

[megadave]

Sounds like it's all started again already today. Some Blackberry messages going around telling people what areas to go to, sounds like some nicer areas will get hit.

 

[Mabs]

then they need to take down the mobile networks in london

 

[Zede]

im backing you eskdee, and im scared that so many "middle/upper-middle class" people here have the opinions displayed so far.

So few realize how deep this problem runs and should instead be ashamed and scared that society, which they are apart of for good and for bad, has failed in so many ways

i'm backing you to back eskdee. Riots ? this is small fry. Buildings and goods can be replaced, they are ALL insured, lives cannot. I'd rather have spent the last 3 nights tucked up in a bedsit in cosy Tottenham than in the equivalent area of ANY major US city.

 

[Ormorof]

i just wrote out a long rant and then browser crashed...

long story short... these clowns are idiots, but they have no understanding of consequences, it may be too late to teach them in the way you would teach a child...

maybe force the rioters convicted to speak personally to some of the shop keepers and homeowners who are affected and explain what they did and why...

 

[pikeh]

i'm backing you to back eskdee. Riots ? this is small fry. Buildings and goods can be replaced, they are ALL insured, lives cannot. I'd rather have spent the last 3 nights tucked up in a bedsit in cosy Tottenham than in the equivalent area of ANY major US city.

Whats the point in saying shit like that? A) This isn't America and B) the fact that stuff is insured doesn't make this OK.

 

[rynnor]

Supposed to be people organising in Sheffield - one to watch maybe?

 

[Kryten]

Shits happening everywhere. They've closed down our town centre (I'm home early as a result) due to supposed shit occuring at 2pm.

 

[DaGaffer]

really ?
so everyone on benefit is fighting tooth and nail to improve their lot ?
or are just some, while rest sit on their sofa watching drivel on tv ?
some places have 2nd and 3rd generation on dole, and they dont care . now im not saying its all their fault, but its hardly optimal is it ?

Never said it was, but three generations on the dole didn't just happen for no reason.

But bear in mind that most of those generational dolites aren't actually funded by benefits anyway, they survive through crime/black economy.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

I know some chavs I went to school with, babys at 16/17, 3 generations on the dole.

It does happen for no reason, they could have easily got a job, they are just pond life. And they were the type of kids outside smashing up park benches and stealing peoples bikes from outside houses / shops. It's just simply poor parenting and scum breeds scum, the UK really would have been better off if they were dead.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I leave London for a few days and come back to this madness. Now I know what it feels like to be a parent leaving their house to their child when they go on holiday.

Typical Spurs fans, can't trust 'em.

 

[Gumbo]

i'm backing you to back eskdee. Riots ? this is small fry. Buildings and goods can be replaced, they are ALL insured, lives cannot. I'd rather have spent the last 3 nights tucked up in a bedsit in cosy Tottenham than in the equivalent area of ANY major US city.

Oh FFS.

You think the album of baby photo's can be replaced? Your Gran's engagement ring? The guitar you've had for 25 years etc?

You're going on my twat list. Do you really think getting burned out of your home can be compensated for by a cheque from an insurers in 6 weeks time, minus your excess of course.

I do wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of IQ test to take before you're allowed on the internet.

 

[Huntingtons]

I know some chavs I went to school with, babys at 16/17, 3 generations on the dole.

It does happen for no reason, they could have easily got a job, they are just pond life. And they were the type of kids outside smashing up park benches and stealing peoples bikes from outside houses / shops. It's just simply poor parenting and scum breeds scum, the UK really would have been better off if they were dead.

arent you the one who wont pay back his student loans or what was it? scum breeds scum indeed.

 

[- English -]

arent you the one who wont pay back his student loans or what was it? scum breeds scum indeed.

haha

 

[MYstIC G]

Shits happening everywhere. They've closed down our town centre (I'm home early as a result) due to supposed shit occuring at 2pm.

Same. I guess the logic to this is normal people will do this for there safety but troublemakers will stay out on the streets and can be moved along before it gets dark.

 

[Corran]

Oh FFS.

You think the album of baby photo's can be replaced? Your Gran's engagement ring? The guitar you've had for 25 years etc?

You're going on my twat list. Do you really think getting burned out of your home can be compensated for by a cheque from an insurers in 6 weeks time, minus your excess of course.

I do wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of IQ test to take before you're allowed on the internet.

well said, there are a lot of irreplaceable items... photos are so important. My wives memory is not brilliant, so photos mean that bit more to her as they keep everything fresh... at the same for everyone like that....

but some people only care about worldly goods and think yeahy, i can get new everything... woooohoooo.