News Tottenham riots

[eksdee]

Im just stating, which could be pretty much classed as fact, that if a harsher punishment, such as chopping looters hands off, as in Saudi .. then im sure there wouldn't be so many people doing it.

And that's why in America, a country where there is a death penalty, gun crime is rife? Obviously those people aren't scared of the harsher punishment, or are you suggesting that only barbarism will keep the public in check?

 

[DaGaffer]

Glad to see the IQ level of this thread has improved over night. It stuns me that you can be so stupidly reactionary, even over such an emotive issue. You don't have to support their behaviour, far from it, but this sort of attitude is exactly what fans the flames of what is going on.

With the exception of the bit about getting their benefits stopped, I don't see how you can take issue with what Raven said; "hope they all get I caught" - I certainly hope so, "get forced to clear up" - I'm pretty sure this will form a large part of their community service. How is any of that reactionary?

Personally I think they're going to have to hand out long sentences to quite a few of these bastards because at the moment they're all feeling pretty pleased with themselves about how they've gotten away with it.

The big problem for the authorities is that the looters have now realised they can pretty much do what they want and there aren't enough police to stop them, and the police don't have the authority or tools to contain them when they are on the ground. I absolutely do not want to see the army on the streets, but the police do need the tools/authority to go on the offensive; baton rounds, cs and water cannon should all be on the agenda, because the thugs aren't remotely scared, and they need to be. I was watching that charge (and yes Tom it was a charge - the police retreated under fire) in Woolwich, and the cops had nothing to push back with, no offensive capability at all.

 

[- English -]

And that's why in America, a country where there is a death penalty, gun crime is rife? Obviously those people aren't scared of the harsher punishment, or are you suggesting that only barbarism will keep the public in check?

Well lets keep things in perspective, the death penalty for somethign like this is a step too far. I suggested chopping peoples hands off.

I've never been to somewhere like Saudi, but from what my brother tells me who has, you will notice they only have 1 hand chopped off, because they think twice of doing it again.

 

[eksdee]

With the exception of the bit about getting their benefits stopped, I don't see how you can take issue with what Raven said; "hope they all get I caught" - I certainly hope so, "get forced to clear up" - I'm pretty sure this will form a large part of their community service. How is any of that reactionary?

Personally I think they're going to have to hand out long sentences to quite a few of these bastards because at the moment they're all feeling pretty pleased with themselves about how they've gotten away with it.

The big problem for the authorities is that the looters have now realised they can pretty much do what they want and there aren't enough police to stop them, and the police don't have the authority or tools to contain them when they are on the ground. I absolutely do not want to see the army on the streets, but the police do need the tools/authority to go on the offensive; baton rounds, cs and water cannon should all be on the agenda, because the thugs aren't remotely scared, and they need to be. I was watching that charge (and yes Tom it was a charge - the police retreated under fire) in Woolwich, and the cops had nothing to push back with, no offensive capability at all.

Yeah, evidently, I don't disagree with anything you've said there. My problem is the assumption that they're all 'on benefits'. I mean seriously, get fucking real.

 

[Mabs]

as i understand it they cant use the water cannons, rubber bullets, etc, without approval
and that approval is on the same level as the "send in the army" option, so it would appear to be a "both or nothing" sort of result

but as was previously mentioned, somewhere, they are going to run out of police who can A go on shift and B are riot trained, and that is crunch point. either give up, or step up the response

apparently its quieted down now but expecting it to kick off again later, so we shall see :/

 

[eksdee]

Well lets keep things in perspective, the death penalty for somethign like this is a step too far. I suggested chopping peoples hands off.

I've never been to somewhere like Saudi, but from what my brother tells me who has, you will notice they only have 1 hand chopped off, because they think twice of doing it again.

Oh well, now you put it that way.

...

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah, evidently, I don't disagree with anything you've said there. My problem is the assumption that they're all 'on benefits'. I mean seriously, get fucking real.

A lot of them are still at school, but the rest are more likely to be on benefits than not (its just a demographic fact in a lot of the areas worst hit). Stopping benefits is a non-starter though (and will be moot for a lot of them because hopefully they'll be inside).

 

[rynnor]

The bigger problem is that if the police continue to be innefectual something could rise up in the power vacuumn.

I am amazed that far right groups like the edf havent gotten involved - its a golden opportunity for them to appear almost legitimate - luckily it appears they have no serious political aspirations.

 

[- English -]

Oh well, now you put it that way.

...

Well you have given no alternative suggestion into how you would deal with this. You have called and slagged upon everyone elses views but we are yet to hear yours. Let me guess, you're a Labour supporter, and just like their government they like to critise, yet offer no alternative.

 

[eksdee]

A lot of them are still at school, but the rest are more likely to be on benefits than not (its just a demographic fact in a lot of the areas worst hit). Stopping benefits is a non-starter though (and will be moot for a lot of them because hopefully they'll be inside).

I suppose I should have clarified that I meant using it as a derisory term. Evidently, a lot of this stems from poorer areas where people on benefits cluster - which is, as you rightly pointly out, a demographic fact. Posting at work means my attention is split.

I've been on benefits. I have a degree and come from a relatively 'middle class' background. People don't necessarily choose that path, it's more often than not thrust upon them, especially in the current state of our country and economy.

 

[Access Denied]

eksdee why do you think countries with harsher punishments for minor crimes have lower overall crime levels? The punishments work. As Mabs said, it's fear or respect and there's no respect. The moral stance of "I won't do this because it's wrong" is totally lacking in society and until it is redicovered the only thing that can be done is to make the punishments harsher and use the fear of consequences to prevent most of the crime.

 

[Ormorof]

they dont neccesarily have higher crime rates as eksdee has pointed out, many states in the US have the death sentence but still very high gun crime (which is more to do with free availability of guns i believe than the level of punishment)

what i will be interested to see is the level of punishment doled out to these muppets though, 6 months for a pie in the face of murdoch so how much for setting fire to a department store and throwing petrol bombs at police?

 

[eksdee]

Well you have given no alternative suggestion into how you would deal with this. You have called and slagged upon everyone elses views but we are yet to hear yours. Let me guess, you're a Labour supporter, and just like their government they like to critise, yet offer no alternative.

I'm not a Labour supporter, no. I've stated multiple times what my standpoint is, but the problem is people like you see it in too black-and-white a sense. The beginning of rectifying any problem is seeing the facts and weighing them up objectively. This is barred by idiotic, reactionary, bigoted idiots who assume all these rioters are 'on benefits' (in the derisory sense), or must all be 'chavs' or black, or whatever else.

Not once have I claimed to have a solution. I'm a 24 year old graphic designer, not a politician or a policeman or whatever. I don't expect someone like me to even begin to be able to solve something like this. Public opinion, however, does have an effect on the outcome of these things - from both sides - and I find it frightening that so many people are so quick to jump to extreme measures. Granted, the rioters have already gotten 'extreme' in their own way, so I do understand the desire for an extreme response to a point. However, this whole thing was sparked with violence and fear. It's a very simple, boring and predictable phrase in this situation but none-the-less apt: two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Ceixah]

chopping off hands is not the answer, not even slightly.

as for them all being on benefits - I wouldn't be surprised if a high percentage of the looters were infact on benefits - but by no means are all of them.

from what I can see is the majority of these will just be opportunistic people getting in on the free stuff.


As for a punishment, it's not that these people aren't afraid of the punishment it's that they're not afraid of getting caught.....

therefore why would you need to increase the punishment? just increase the likelihood of people being caught - which they have done by increasing police numbers in the capital - however other cities being hit now...

 

[Ormorof]

yeah guardian reporting up to 16,000 police in london for tonight

 

[eksdee]

eksdee why do you think countries with harsher punishments for minor crimes have lower overall crime levels? The punishments work. As Mabs said, it's fear or respect and there's no respect. The moral stance of "I won't do this because it's wrong" is totally lacking in society and until it is redicovered the only thing that can be done is to make the punishments harsher and use the fear of consequences to prevent most of the crime.

That wasn't my point, my point is that harsher punishments have much more wide-reaching consequences on society as a whole. Given the freedoms we enjoy in this country in relativity, I'm pretty certain you wouldn't in reality want what you're suggesting if you realised the broader issues involved with it all.

 

[- English -]

Im not saying its a humane thing to do, and it might be seen as a negative thing in terms of human rights. However, these people dont deserve to have any human rights. Look at the damage they have caused to innocent people and businesses etc. They have just thrown their own-rights into their own fire imo.

 

[eksdee]

They deserve to be punished, but no human being deserves to have their 'human rights' (however they are quantified) stripped away in that way. We might as well start hitting each other over the head with rocks again if that's how the world is going to go.

 

[Mabs]

Im not saying its a humane thing to do, and it might be seen as a negative thing in terms of human rights. However, these people dont deserve to have any human rights. Look at the damage they have caused to innocent people and businesses etc. They have just thrown their own-rights into their own fire imo.

people flaunting the law and then hiding behind it when it goes pear shaped

got to love that :/

 

[Raven]

That wasn't my point, my point is that harsher punishments have much more wide-reaching consequences on society as a whole. Given the freedoms we enjoy in this country in relativity, I'm pretty certain you wouldn't in reality want what you're suggesting if you realised the broader issues involved with it all.

Yes because touchy feely lefty bullshit really works!

 

[DaGaffer]

eksdee why do you think countries with harsher punishments for minor crimes have lower overall crime levels? The punishments work. As Mabs said, it's fear or respect and there's no respect. The moral stance of "I won't do this because it's wrong" is totally lacking in society and until it is redicovered the only thing that can be done is to make the punishments harsher and use the fear of consequences to prevent most of the crime.

No. They don't. You can just as easily make the counter-argument that there plenty of countries that are arguably much softer on crime than the UK that have much lower crime rates (like Scandinavia). If life was as simple as a strong correlation between harsh punishment and low crime, everyone would have that policy, but it simply isn't true, because, surprise surprise, there are a myriad of other factors that cause high or low crime rates. Britain's problems are not being caused because the UK as a particularly soft touch on crime, and whether you like it or not, we've created an underclass that have no stake in the well-being of the country and no fear of the consequences of their actions. Even if you make the consequences terrifying, if you don't balance that with engagement with society, all you have left is a police state.

Frankly, all of you talking about chopping off looter's hands and all that rubbish, you're a bunch of fucking idiots and you need to get a grip. Its not going to happen, I for one wouldn't want to live in a country that did that, and all the rest is internet warrior posturing. Grow up.

 

[eksdee]

Yes because touchy feely lefty bullshit really works!

And you're still idiotic enough to believe the only alternative is 'toughy feely lefty bullshit'?

 

[Tuthmes]

Yes because touchy feely lefty bullshit really works!

Well, sort your own righty life isnt working either.

 

[Mabs]

Yes because touchy feely lefty bullshit really works!

certainly does

if your a nasty little twat who wants a new telly

 

[eksdee]

No. They don't. You can just as easily make the counter-argument that there plenty of countries that are arguably much softer on crime than the UK that have much lower crime rates (like Scandinavia). If life was as simple as a strong correlation between harsh punishment and low crime, everyone would have that policy, but it simply isn't true, because, surprise surprise, there are a myriad of other factors that cause high or low crime rates. Britain's problems are not being caused because the UK as a particularly soft touch on crime, and whether you like it or not, we've created an underclass that have no stake in the well-being of the country and no fear of the consequences of their actions. Even if you make the consequences terrifying, if you don't balance that with engagement with society, all you have left is a police state.

Frankly, all of you talking about chopping off looter's hands and all that rubbish, you're a bunch of fucking idiots and you need to get a grip. Its not going to happen, I for one wouldn't want to live in a country that did that, and all the rest is internet warrior posturing. Grow up.

This. Well said, much better than I managed but what I was trying to get at.

 

[Ceixah]

No. They don't. You can just as easily make the counter-argument that there plenty of countries that are arguably much softer on crime than the UK that have much lower crime rates (like Scandinavia). If life was as simple as a strong correlation between harsh punishment and low crime, everyone would have that policy, but it simply isn't true, because, surprise surprise, there are a myriad of other factors that cause high or low crime rates. Britain's problems are not being caused because the UK as a particularly soft touch on crime, and whether you like it or not, we've created an underclass that have no stake in the well-being of the country and no fear of the consequences of their actions. Even if you make the consequences terrifying, if you don't balance that with engagement with society, all you have left is a police state.

Frankly, all of you talking about chopping off looter's hands and all that rubbish, you're a bunch of fucking idiots and you need to get a grip. Its not going to happen, I for one wouldn't want to live in a country that did that, and all the rest is internet warrior posturing. Grow up.

qft!

 

[eksdee]

certainly does

if your a nasty little twat who wants a new telly

So you're suggesting all the people looting are Guardian-reading, English lit students who all vote Green or what? You lot really need to make up your minds who you hate. I'd put a good bet that the vast majority of the rioters don't even vote, or feel represented by any political party in this country. This in itself is the problem, and an extremely complex issue about the gap created between the rich and the poor (excuse the crass terms). These riots are primarily about disaffection and the feeling of powerlessness within these sections of our society, so far as I see it.

 

[Raven]

And you're still idiotic enough to believe the only alternative is 'toughy feely lefty bullshit'?

No, I am not. I am for people being taught to respect their community and learn the value of personal freedom and property.

I can't remember where it was but I think it was somewhere in luton where they had stacks of community projects on the go and it had one of the lowest crime rate of any shitty post war housing estates in the country.

ofc if people refuse to be part of the community or decide they want to wreck it then they should be removed from that community and any benefits they may receive should be stopped. Why should we pay (out of our taxes) for scum to just destroy stuff.

 

[- English -]

@dafagger I dont think it would affect me in the slightest if people lost their hands. It wouldn't affect 99.9% of people, as they are good hard working people who worked for their living. These yobs who have done this deserve to be punished HARD - to stop them doing it again. As one stated above, there is no respect, implement some fear. Prison is a walk for them, they probably have better lives in there.

I know it won't happen, but something has to be done. But once agian, it would be nice to hear your opinion on such punishments, since like eksdee, i've yet to read it.

 

[Raven]

These riots are primarily about disaffection and the feeling of powerlessness within these sections of our society, so far as I see it.

utter bullshit. These riots are primarily about people wanting to destroy stuff and steal. They don't vote because they don't care, they aren't disaffected they are just not interested. If they were disaffected then they would do something meaningful about it.