Politics So...Europe then?

[DaGaffer]

Well to be quite honest house prices have been fucked for some time, its about time 20% (at least, I would hope) was wiped off them.

Its a chance to try something new, successive governments haven't changed much really, its no different under the Tories as it was under Nu-Labour...not that I believe for one second that anything will change for the good.



Not really, they have just as much inequality as anyone else, if not more. I guess it depends what you use as a barometer for doing well. For 99% of people that is get born, work for 50+ years for someone else and die. If some people had their way there would also be nothing left to pass on because the state would take it all.

Even the French, comparatively socialist have huge problems with large parts of society that are disenfranchised and piss poor.

Anyway, being in or out of the EU makes little difference to multinational companies, they will fuck us regardless.

Nope. When it comes to economic inequality Germany would be a bit behind the Scandis and a few other small countries, but easily the most equal large economy, and more importantly, Germany is trending towards more equality, unlike the UK (or US).

 

[Raven]

Nah, their average lifestyle is probably better than ours (In fact, I know it is) but they have just as much inequality between the rich and the poor as we do and pretty much every other developed country in the world. ofc in the 3rd world they just skip the niceties of having a fairly well off but still piss poor average and just skip to the have literally nothing and the rich.

 

[DaGaffer]

Nah, their average lifestyle is probably better than ours (In fact, I know it is) but they have just as much inequality between the rich and the poor as we do and pretty much every other developed country in the world. ofc in the 3rd world they just skip the niceties of having a fairly well off but still piss poor average and just skip to the have literally nothing and the rich.

Google "Gini coefficient". I didn't pull the information out of my arse.

 

[old.user4556]

I look forward to hearing the arguments of No. Last time it was that if we voted Yes, then we'd be out of the EU with a currency that's tanked. JUST AS WELL WE VOTED NO AND DODGED THAT BULLET.

OH THE IRONING!

 

[Moriath]

I look forward to hearing the arguments of No. Last time it was that if we voted Yes, then we'd be out of the EU with a currency that's tanked. JUST AS WELL WE VOTED NO AND DODGED THAT BULLET.

OH THE IRONING!

Needs to be a uk wide referendum on to pet scotland go imo. It effects more than just the jocks.

 

[gohan]

Nah I think they have every right to jump ship after the way they've essentially been fucked over. I mean so has 48% of the country but you know. Democracy.

 

[Raven]

Its funny how people only support democracy when their choice comes through.

 

[gohan]

I'm not sure I support democracy at all. People are too stupid to get a vote. But then monarchys, oligarchys and dictatorships are too corrupt. The Romans had it right, the more educated voted first and it only rolled down to the dregs if a quarum hadn't been reached

 

[caLLous]

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

 

[Raven]

Then you get into the realms of how you judge education. Remembering a list of facts is not the same as being an artist or an amazingly technical person. Most "Educated" people haven't got a clue how to do anything beyond pressing a button and watching something happen, they don't actually understand what pressing the button does or why.

The "average voter" that idiots people like to belittle, shout at, accuse of racism or whatever, probably doesn't vote...and Brexit is exactly what happens when even mire idiotic people spend their time calling people stupid, rather than engaging with them and understanding their issues (and hopefully resolving them, one way or another)

 

[Bodhi]

Its funny how people only support democracy when their choice comes through.

Poison Dwarf being the case in point. Let's have another referendum because we didn't get the answer we wanted in the last one.

I'm guessing that if she does want Independence the best way to do it would be to open the vote out to the rest of the UK, as there is an increasing feeling down here of "Off you fuck then", however she should be careful, as even if they do vote for Indy then there is absolutely no guarantee they will get back into the EU. They need a decent balance of payments (oops), a Central Bank (oh dear) and they need 27 other countries to agree to it - as one of those countries is Spain, so that's another no.

They'd also need a "hard" border between Scotland and the rUK - given something ridiculous like 90% of Scotland's exports go to the UK, that sounds a bit daft to me.

 

[gohan]

I agree, although I think brexit is a mistake logically it was purely voted for with heart not head as people are being ignored. Brexit is the equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum in a supermarket. Doesn't actually help anyone but what is left to do at that point?

That said, you don't let a toddler decide important life decisions (and before the notallbrexit brigade jump in, the ammount of people that didn't even know what they were voting for and the whole regrexit stuff means the vote would have swung the other way by a larger margin than the leave campaign won with)

I don't have any answers, just grievances. I don't see a fairer way of doing it but maybe we need to move off this special snowflake society thing and the vote should have prerequisites. For example some 3rd generation dole claiming chav shouldn't have the same voting power as say a teacher or a doctor etc. And I know 90% of the time they won't use their vote anyway but for things like brexit the small margin of victory was gained by the ignorant and the racist. If those votes were taken away the result would have been massively different.

 

[Raven]

The whole thing was a farce on both sides. One side lying (or at least portions of it) and the other side just throwing insults with no real substance to their argument. And still, their only argument seems to be "OMG racists"

People should be looking at the politicians, not the public when it comes to the outcome.

 

[gohan]

Well that's sort of my point. The people that vote are easily manipulated by politicians and don't really even know what they're voting for. Farage and Boris had about 2 million extra votes each because people went along with the save our NHS shit without doing any research into the logistics of it

 

[DaGaffer]

Poison Dwarf being the case in point. Let's have another referendum because we didn't get the answer we wanted in the last one.

I'm guessing that if she does want Independence the best way to do it would be to open the vote out to the rest of the UK, as there is an increasing feeling down here of "Off you fuck then", however she should be careful, as even if they do vote for Indy then there is absolutely no guarantee they will get back into the EU. They need a decent balance of payments (oops), a Central Bank (oh dear) and they need 27 other countries to agree to it - as one of those countries is Spain, so that's another no.

They'd also need a "hard" border between Scotland and the rUK - given something ridiculous like 90% of Scotland's exports go to the UK, that sounds a bit daft to me.

I would have agreed with all that - before Brexit. Now, she's got more than enough justification to demand a new vote; Scotland voted to stay, and the UK's constitutional arrangements have been thrown out the window since the last referendum. I still think the Spain thing would be an issue, especially as the Catalan referendum demand is really coming to a head, but then that might be done and dusted by the time Scotland came to apply anyway. I do think the rest of the EU would bend over backwards to invite Scotland in, because...fuck the English. The behaviour of the Tories is burning the last vestiges of goodwill in the EU even as we speak (a deliberate tactic by people who don't want any potential rollback on Brexit; they're making sure bridges are thoroughly burnt), and there will be plenty of EU members only too happy to kick Westminster in the nuts.

As for the hard border; there needs to be a solution for Ireland/NI anyway; whatever that is would apply to Scotland as well. At least up until NI leaves the Union as well (which would be inevitable if Scotland goes).

 

[Bodhi]

I would have agreed with all that - before Brexit. Now, she's got more than enough justification to demand a new vote; Scotland voted to stay, and the UK's constitutional arrangements have been thrown out the window since the last referendum. I still think the Spain thing would be an issue, especially as the Catalan referendum demand is really coming to a head, but then that might be done and dusted by the time Scotland came to apply anyway. I do think the rest of the EU would bend over backwards to invite Scotland in, because...fuck the English. The behaviour of the Tories is burning the last vestiges of goodwill in the EU even as we speak (a deliberate tactic by people who don't want any potential rollback on Brexit; they're making sure bridges are thoroughly burnt), and there will be plenty of EU members only too happy to kick Westminster in the nuts.

As for the hard border; there needs to be a solution for Ireland/NI anyway; whatever that is would apply to Scotland as well. At least up until NI leaves the Union as well (which would be inevitable if Scotland goes).

How far do you take that though? Say, for instance Scotland votes for Independence but Shetland, Orkney and the Highlands vote against it - do those areas stay in the UK?

 

[Ormorof]

Then they would need to organise a shet-ork-y-ref

 

[DaGaffer]

How far do you take that though? Say, for instance Scotland votes for Independence but Shetland, Orkney and the Highlands vote against it - do those areas stay in the UK?

Valid points that were also relevant during the last Scottish referendum, but as we're all on the "taking our sovereignty back" bus now, you can't really argue Scotland doesn't have a case. I guess Shetland would have to demand secession from Scotland.

 

[old.user4556]

How far do you take that though? Say, for instance Scotland votes for Independence but Shetland, Orkney and the Highlands vote against it - do those areas stay in the UK?

That argument has been tried - e.g. Glasgow and Dundee voted Yes, Aberdeen and Edinburgh voted No (spot the obvious wealth alignment), London voted to stay in the EU, outside of London voted to stay out. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU, rUK voted to leave. The difference here is that Scotland have another option on the table unlike, say, London or rUK. In addition, the goalposts have moved since the last Scottish Indyref - as I jokingly alluded to, No used the arguments that we'd be out the EU with a shit currency and that's pretty much where we've ended up anyway. That all said, Spain are indeed shitting their pants and will probably block any attempt by Scotland to re-join because Catalonia reasons.

My own opinion here is that it's a giant clusterfuck and noone really knows what's going to happen, and I certainly don't know what's best - I'm more concerned about Russia and China tbh.

 

[Job]

If the vast majority of leavers voted on simplistic bullshit promises and populist go get em speeches, then that's England for you...do we suggest removing the working classes from the vote or simply people who shout at soap operas.

 

[Gwadien]

If the vast majority of leavers voted on simplistic bullshit promises and populist go get em speeches, then that's England for you...do we suggest removing the working classes from the vote or simply people who shout at soap operas.

So why did you vote leave?

 

[gohan]

I'm working class I mean the proper lower class dole scroungers.... but as said, for most things they never turn out to vote, they just decided fucking up the country was worth a day out.

 

[gohan]

So why did you vote leave?

Dont start that up again!

 

[Job]

So why did you vote leave?

To put the brakes on a German led federal superstate.
This is quite simply WW2 by the pen , they will try to crush us to frighten other voters, these are utterly epic days of Europe and all it has descended into is the value of the pound and Marmite.
Remainers want economics above everything, Brexiters relate to bigger things than cheap holidays.

 

[dysfunction]

To put the brakes on a German led federal superstate.
This is quite simply WW2 by the pen , they will try to crush us to frighten other voters, these are utterly epic days of Europe and all it has descended into is the value of the pound and Marmite.
Remainers want economics above everything, Brexiters relate to bigger things than cheap holidays.

You mean like inflation making it more expensive to buy anything?

 

[Job]

Yes

 

[Moriath]

Inflation, stocks, shares. All short term reflexes as yet. See in a year or two or three. Its knee jerk reactions that the markets are good at

 

[Job]

We have to face up to a world where the banks and corporations rule the world and that the fear of the slightest financial incovenience keeps political change or the desire to improve the world in check.
The 5% control the wealth and they play international monopoly with it, anyone resisting gets the rug pulled from beneath them.

 

[Ctuchik]

Just to throw into this shitstorm, it seems that the SNP are going to try and pass a bill for another referendum. So fucking fatigued with neverendums.

Well that was pretty expected though.. The Scottish stay side wanted to stay because they didn't want to leave EU, then the brits turn around shortly after and in one big "fuck you" they go and leave any way..

While at the same time have the brass balls to accuse other countries to try and tell them what to do... >.<

Isn't that what the Brits have been doing since practically the dawn of time (with the help of it's navy)?

 

[Job]

you mean the English...Scots are British.