Politics So...Europe then?

[Wij]

and a brit complaining about lack of democracy while living in an outdated two party first past the post system is laughable

And a load of unelected cronies and dedicated places for those who believe in a specific fairy tale in the Upper House!

 

[Embattle]

Considering consequences of your political actions seems pretty sensible to me

The EU is a democracy, you vote for MEPs after all and the council of ministers is made up of elected officials from EU members, the problem is all the closed door shenanigans, but remember even that part is taken care of by elected officials

No legislation or executive decisions are made by a bureaucrat without it being approved by someone thats been elected - if you dont like their decisions then vote for someone else

It is a nice idea Ormorof apart from we naturally don't elect the majority of MEPs, so we elect 73 out of the 751 MEPs.

 

[Bodhi]

Considering consequences of your political actions seems pretty sensible to me

The EU is a democracy, you vote for MEPs after all and the council of ministers is made up of elected officials from EU members, the problem is all the closed door shenanigans, but remember even that part is taken care of by elected officials

No legislation or executive decisions are made by a bureaucrat without it being approved by someone thats been elected - if you dont like their decisions then vote for someone else

It has flaws yes, the decisions are sometimes baffling, and frankly a lot of it is stuck in the mud of politics

But is it any less democratic or accountable than any national government? Not really no

and a brit complaining about lack of democracy while living in an outdated two party first past the post system is laughable

The EU is a democracy? Fucking LOL. I'll assume we're ignoring the puppet governments put in place in Italy and Greece, forcing through of European Treaties the French and the Dutch said no to (what became the Lisbon treaty) - the same one the Irish voted no on, then were forced to vote again until they got the right answer. We'll also ignore the EU dropping diplomatic ties with Austria, because they dared to vote in the wrong sort of government, or them threatening the same to Poland and Hungary for wanting to change their constitution.

Whilst the UK's system might not be perfect, I fail to see how adding another highly imperfect layer on top solves anything at all.

Good write-up of the issues below, and why I think it's our best bet to GTFO.

For Europe, against the EU

If you bother to read all the way through, you'll find an awful lot of these European Elites are actually quite proud of the lack of democratic process in the EU.

‘The absence of political personalities removes any ground for disagreement.’

Personally that doesn't sound like an organisation I want anything to do with.

 

[Ormorof]

Seeing as its a quote from an italian politician who hasnt worked in the EU for 12 years you probably are in no danger of being ruled by Mario Monti

The Italian and greek governments fell because they had lost the support of their own parties (berlusconi was a loon investigated for a host of crimes when he lost power) and greece was hardly an idyllic example of stable government when the eu bailout agreement fell apart

 

[Ormorof]

It is a nice idea Ormorof apart from we naturally don't elect the majority of MEPs, so we elect 73 out of the 751 MEPs.

Yes, the uk has ~8% of the EU population but gets more than 8% of the votes not all bad eh?

 

[Embattle]

Yes but I'm not sure you get what I mean, in essence our MEPs mean nothing even if they were to group together over policy/regulation/etc.

 

[Bodhi]

Seeing as its a quote from an italian politician who hasnt worked in the EU for 12 years you probably are in no danger of being ruled by Mario Monti

The Italian and greek governments fell because they had lost the support of their own parties (berlusconi was a loon investigated for a host of crimes when he lost power) and greece was hardly an idyllic example of stable government when the eu bailout agreement fell apart

Strange, looking at his bio, he appears to have been pretty active within the EU all the way up until 2011 when he was parachuted into running Italy.

 

[Raven]

Europe™ are terrified of a leave vote because it will lead to more demand for other countries to hold a referendum, this is why we are seeing stupid threats from the likes of France. I am yet to see any actual argument from them or the stay campaigners as to how it benefits us to remain.

Its clear to everyone that Europe is broken and unwilling to repair itself, as said in other threads, its a tragic shame that it hasn't worked, the only people to blame are the bureaucrats and failed politicians that run Europe.

 

[DaGaffer]

The EU is a democracy? Fucking LOL. I'll assume we're ignoring the puppet governments put in place in Italy and Greece, forcing through of European Treaties the French and the Dutch said no to (what became the Lisbon treaty) - the same one the Irish voted no on, then were forced to vote again until they got the right answer. We'll also ignore the EU dropping diplomatic ties with Austria, because they dared to vote in the wrong sort of government, or them threatening the same to Poland and Hungary for wanting to change their constitution.

Whilst the UK's system might not be perfect, I fail to see how adding another highly imperfect layer on top solves anything at all.

Good write-up of the issues below, and why I think it's our best bet to GTFO.

For Europe, against the EU

If you bother to read all the way through, you'll find an awful lot of these European Elites are actually quite proud of the lack of democratic process in the EU.



Personally that doesn't sound like an organisation I want anything to do with.

And once again, what makes you think UK gov is any better?


UK Gov has massively increased the use of Statutory Instruments to bypass parliament over the last decade. Labour picked up the ball and the Tories have run with it. The British government is not democratic and its a pretty shocking state of affairs when we need The House of Lords to protect us from this shit, and the Tories are trying to stop their ability to do it.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes but I'm not sure you get what I mean, in essence our MEPs mean nothing even if they were to group together over policy/regulation/etc.

That's called "democracy". How is it different to Scottish or Welsh MPs in the context of the UK? The way most of the EU deals with this is by forming alliances to get what they need (which is how democracies work everywhere, irrespective of political leanings); of course the default UK position is to usually to piss and moan from the sidelines.

 

[Embattle]

No it is democracy on a EU scale but not at a national level which is where you'll feel it most hence some people don't like it and want out.

 

[DaGaffer]

No it is democracy on a EU scale but not at a national level which is where you'll feel it most hence some people don't like it and want out.

Your argument is reductive. The next step is dissolution of the UK for the same reasons. Then what? Independence for London?

The simple fact is you can have levels of government up and down the chain and one doesn't preclude the other. The whole brexit argument is about a loss of sovereignty which doesn't really bear close scrutiny. If the UK is "less free" than it was in 1973, that's a least as much down to the UK itself is it is the EU, probably more so.

 

[Job]

Kettles. Pah.
View attachment 31856

Fukin lol, I fit them a lot 1400 quid a go...I charge the obviously mote money than sense punters 200 quid to fit.

 

[DaGaffer]

Fukin lol, I fit them a lot 1400 quid a go...I charge the obviously mote money than sense punters 200 quid to fit.

€1000 including fitting. Bargain as my missus drinks tea intravenously. Pays for itself in leccy and kettles in about three years.

 

[Bodhi]

And once again, what makes you think UK gov is any better?
View attachment 31857

UK Gov has massively increased the use of Statutory Instruments to bypass parliament over the last decade. Labour picked up the ball and the Tories have run with it. The British government is not democratic and its a pretty shocking state of affairs when we need The House of Lords to protect us from this shit, and the Tories are trying to stop their ability to do it.

So as I said, clearly the best way to combat this is to have yet another layer of government on top of that one, even worse than the one in Westminster.

 

[Raven]

Democracy is fucked anyway, easier to fix as a country than a union that has no democratic access whatsoever.

 

[DaGaffer]

So as I said, clearly the best way to combat this is to have yet another layer of government on top of that one, even worse than the one in Westminster.

A. Is the EU objectively worse? Doubtful. The EU has never introduced internment without trial for instance. B. Would being in or out of the EU help combat abuses of democracy by UK gov, since both Labour and the Tories do it? I see no convincing argument.

 

[Embattle]

Why I’m betting on Brexit

 

[Bodhi]

A. Is the EU objectively worse? Doubtful. The EU has never introduced internment without trial for instance. B. Would being in or out of the EU help combat abuses of democracy by UK gov, since both Labour and the Tories do it? I see no convincing argument.

But by your own argument, those "abuses of democracy" took place whilst being members of the EU, so I would suggest the EU are currently doing the square root of fuck all to prevent them.

So where's the convincing argument to stay?

 

[DaGaffer]

But by your own argument, those "abuses of democracy" took place whilst being members of the EU, so I would suggest the EU are currently doing the square root of fuck all to prevent them.

So where's the convincing argument to stay?

The argument is extremely simple. You won't be worse off if you stay, you will almost certainly be worse off in the short to medium term if you leave. The point is, arguments about sovereignty are largely illusory because Occam's razor suggests you're not going to a freer society if you leave, so the only argument is economic. Or xenophobic, but I can't counter that with a rational argument.

 

[Bodhi]

So scaremongering / claiming those who want to leave are being Little Englanders (ironic enough where I'm from).

Pretty much par for the course for the Remain argument then.

 

[DaGaffer]

So scaremongering / claiming those who want to leave are being Little Englanders (ironic enough where I'm from).

Pretty much par for the course for the Remain argument then.

Scaremongering - or "la la la I'm not listening" as its otherwise known.

And Scotland has more than its share of insularity. Which is the polite word for it.

 

[Bodhi]

Well what else would you describe "You'll be worse off in the short term" as, as it does conveniently ignoting the £163 million per week of our budget we'd get back, pretty much instantly.

 

[DaGaffer]

Well what else would you describe "You'll be worse off in the short term" as, as it does conveniently ignoting the £163 million per week of our budget we'd get back, pretty much instantly.

A. No you wouldn't get it back instantly. It would be rebated and negotiated (there's a ton of CAP subsidies British farmers already have for example).
B. £163 million is fuck all. Get Starbucks to pay its fucking taxes instead. The UK spends about 0.5% of GDP on the EU (net after all the rebates etc.) Getting that back isn't going to help if the economy shrinks by as little as half a percent, which it will. In fact the current weakness of the pound caused by the referendum itself has probably cost more than the cost of the EU contribution.

Of course the UK will be worse off in the short term. Economic uncertainty always does that. Oh, some people will get very rich, the ones who have money already to currency and bond speculate.

 

[Bodhi]

That £163 million includes all the rebates - pre rebates the figure is closer to £350 million. Not entirely sure how we could make that up by getting Starbucks to pay tax on it's £1 million in profit a year....

 

[Ormorof]

So 650 million a month in exchange for access to a market that generates 12 billion a month

Seems like a good deal to me

 

[Bodhi]

Strangely enough our European Neighbours who didn't join the EU - Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstein etc all have access to that market as well, as also having free access to much bigger markets in the US, China and the rest of the Commonwealth.

Plus do you honestly think if we leave we won't be able to trade with the EU? Ignoring the heart attack this would give certain manufacturers of automobiles in Germany, it would pretty much go against WTO rules, and even more inportantly, against Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty itself.

Since the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Union is formally instructed to “develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries” (Article 8 TEU).

Not sure even the French would be quite so keen to cut their noses off to spite their faces.

 

[DaGaffer]

Strangely enough our European Neighbours who didn't join the EU - Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstein etc all have access to that market as well, as also having free access to much bigger markets in the US, China and the rest of the Commonwealth.

Plus do you honestly think if we leave we won't be able to trade with the EU? Ignoring the heart attack this would give certain manufacturers of automobiles in Germany, it would pretty much go against WTO rules, and even more inportantly, against Article 8 of the Lisbon Treaty itself.



Not sure even the French would be quite so keen to cut their noses off to spite their faces.

No one said the UK couldn't trade with the EU, but it would be on the EU's terms, just as it is with Norway and Switzerland. This has been discussed ad nauseum. NB. Norway and Switzerland do not have free trade agreements with the US, China etc.

 

[Bodhi]

Switzerland do have a trade agreement with China, and very nicely they do out of it too.

 

[fettoken]

Switzerland do have a trade agreement with China, and very nicely they do out of it too.

They probably get some nice deal on computer parts right?