Politics So...Europe then?

[Gwadien]

We don't have 'proper' democracy in the UK, we all vote for people who have policies but drop them at a notice because they're told to. MPs very rarely properly represent their electorate, IE, by asking their opinion for instance.

I don't have an issue with the EU Parliament, it makes sense that we have the previously mentioned about of MEPs, why should we get a disproportionate amount? That's democracy, it's just that Germany and France most likely enjoy ganging up on us for particular issues.

 

[Lakih]

Uk is not in schengen anyway

I know that, but there's a free movement agreement with the Schengen countries.

 

[Raven]

NB. Norway and Switzerland do not have free trade agreements with the US, China etc.

Neither does Europe.

Next.

Having a one size fits all agreement with America and China is a terrible idea. Who the fuck cares what benefits Estonia or Greece? What do they provide the union? If it was the big 4, Germany, France, The Netherlands and the UK then all ahead steam but the whole thing is broken if we have to carry the freeloader countries that bring absolutely nothing to the table.

Half the fringe countries are only in Europe for political reasons, not economic.

 

[Raven]

"democracy" in action

BCC boss reportedly suspended over personal opinions on Brexit - BBC News

 

[Job]

The pictures of the muslim men..obviously all frickin men..praying as the Calais camp is demolished, what a frickin dodgy looking bunch of religious sheep...holy fuck, some primal part of me would like to see them sent as far away as possible.

 

[Raven]

Oh and if we do vote to leave, you can absolutely guarantee that France and Germany will hold similar referendums within 5 years, their governments will have no choice, it will be a case of offer it or be chucked out of office. The right are already making massive gains, this will be kindling to their fire. The only reason we are even having the vote is because the Tories had to appease the mad-right or lose ground...a drunken pre-election promise that has back fired. As it turned out it was probably completely unnecessary, they could have won without it.

Both France and Germany will vote to leave. Europe will be left as a bunch of countries with no teat to suckle on. Quite scary actually.

Europe is dying.

Lets hope in a few decades we can try again, but less gravy, more transparency and maybe even a little democracy.

 

[Raven]

The pictures of the muslim men..obviously all frickin men..praying as the Calais camp is demolished, what a frickin dodgy looking bunch of religious sheep...holy fuck, some primal part of me would like to see them sent as far away as possible.

Yes, yes...but what has that got to do with Europe? Refugees would be treated just the same and have the same rights whether we are in Europe or not. They have absolutely nothing to do with the free movement of people, which the vast majority of our immigration problem stems from.

The problem is transient workers that for the most part stay 4-5 years all the while sending money home (both earned and handed out) then up sticks and fuck off, to be replaced by more transient workers.

Refugees tend to stay and become productive members of society, I would take 10 Syrians wanting to start a new life over 1 Romanian here for benefits and tax free wages.

This is the problem with the mad-right, they like to shout about the filthy brown people coming over and stealing their jobs but fail to realise that it is the filthy brown people who will be paying for their care when they shit into a nappy and forget their kids names in their old age.

 

[Raven]

At the end of the day Europe should be a completely transparent entity that equally benefits every member, small or large. In the short term, the richer countries should benefit from readily available workers and resources and the poorer countries should benefit from opportunity to haul themselves out of the mud and become greater, more productive members. In the long term, we should have a single, democratically elected government that supersedes member state governments. It should not be used as a tool for people to move country for a few years, send a stack of money home to build a villa then sit on their arse for the rest of their lives.

The only things stopping people from piss-poor countries from bettering themselves is education and political will. There is no genetic difference between us and Vlad the dodgy painter from Hungary, there is no reason that he could not become productive. You should get out of Europe exactly what you put in, no more, no less.

If a country is not willing (and by that I mean its populous) to contribute then fuck'um, off you fuck. See if Russia want you.

 

[Job]

It's the culture and the belief they bring with them, intrinsically hostile to ours and not integrating one bit.
Romanians share our values...Muslims do not.

 

[Scouse]

No it is democracy on a EU scale but not at a national level which is where you'll feel it most hence some people don't like it and want out.

Yay nationalism.

 

[Scouse]

Oh come on @Bodhi, the out campaign is intimately tied up with nationalistic agenda and instinct.

 

[Embattle]

And?

 

[Ormorof]

Nationalism has worked so well in the past

 

[Gwadien]

For a forever shrinking world, how does nationalism promote progression?

 

[Embattle]

How does nationalism automatically make people radical?

 

[Raven]

Nothing wrong with a bit of nationalism.

Country A is willing to input 100 points of stuff

Country B is willing to input 20 points of stuff but expect the same benefits of country A

Fuck country B, until the cows come home.

 

[Scouse]

And?

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

I agree, Albert. 100% behind ya pal.

 

[Wij]

I agree, Albert. 100% behind ya pal.

Typical Kraut!

 

[DaGaffer]

County A is willing to input 100 points of stuff

County B is willing to input 20 points of stuff but expect the same benefits of county A

Fuck county B, until the cows come home.

Fixed. Your argument applies equally within countries as without, and yet somehow that's fine because we happen to have the same flag?

Oh, and when it comes to "points of stuff", the country that put in the lowest amount as a percentage of GDP in 2014? Luxembourg. Then the UK. Fucked up Greece put in twice as much as the UK as a percentage of its income.

 

[Embattle]

I'm not really sure going the figures route on such a limited basis really helps any one since while at the time I think those figures regarding Greece being the highest as a % of income it was also had the lowest net contribution at nearly -€6bn where as the UK was the second highest at €3.5bn. As I've said many times, in the end I think the overall economic and financial effect of leaving the EU will be neutral.

Interesting PDF - www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06091.pdf

 

[Embattle]

I love watching Andrew Neil roasting both camps, they both seem full of shit tbh.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm not really sure going the figures route on such a limited basis really helps any one since while at the time I think those figures regarding Greece being the highest as a % of income it was also had the lowest net contribution at nearly -€6bn where as the UK was the second highest at €3.5bn. As I've said many times, in the end I think the overall economic and financial effect of leaving the EU will be neutral.

Interesting PDF - www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06091.pdf

The only fair measures are % of GDP or per cap or a combination of the two. The absolute value per country can never be a relevant measure when you have Germany at one end and Malta at the other.

 

[Scouse]

I think those figures regarding Greece being the highest as a % of income it was also had the lowest net contribution at nearly -€6bn where as the UK was the second highest at €3.5bn

I'm with you emb! Fuck the poor!!

Just because Google pays a couple of percent in taxes and you pay effectively ~35% is fine because the pittance Google (easily) pays is way more than you...

 

[ECA]

I love watching Andrew Neil roasting both camps, they both seem full of shit tbh.

Cuz both sides are?

Nobody can forsee what an exit deal would look like, there'd be years of negotiation. With that in mind nobody can say what the economic outcome would be.
The stay campaign is just gonna campaign on economic fear of exit, and the leave campaign is gonna be all out sovereignty and fear of immigrants.

It's gonna be a very dull few months.

 

[Embattle]

More to do with the facts and figures used by both sides are very selective almost utter tripe, sort of like above.

 

[Scouse]

Says the man using facepalms as argument substitutes.

 

[DaGaffer]

Cuz both sides are?

Nobody can forsee what an exit deal would look like, there'd be years of negotiation. With that in mind nobody can say what the economic outcome would be.
The stay campaign is just gonna campaign on economic fear of exit, and the leave campaign is gonna be all out sovereignty and fear of immigrants.

It's gonna be a very dull few months.

There's a different argument though; will Brexit Britain be better? As in a nicer, more democratic place to live? Does anyone think their lives will be improved by Brexit? Ultimately that has to be the argument, and maybe if British politicians weren't a shower of self-serving cunts (I'm looking at you in particular Boris), I'd have sympathy for the idea, but they are, so I don't.

 

[Raven]

The UK would be better with less extreme population growth. A nice controllable drip, fine. Half a million a year, not so much.

One source is transient migrants from the EU.

 

[Embattle]

Says the man using facepalms as argument substitutes.

I would of thought my style of posting was quite obvious by now, I generally don't do arguments. I engage and communicate and when champagne socialists such as yourself start reapeting yourself or attempting to force your view on others by sheer weight of replys I often find it much better not to waste my time typing repetitive replys, I'll leave it to others.

 

[DaGaffer]

The UK would be better with less extreme population growth. A nice controllable drip, fine. Half a million a year, not so much.

One source is transient migrants from the EU.

But the EU isn't really the problem there because of the net migration out (e.g. people like me, although apparently Brexit won't affect free movement between the UK and Ireland anyway). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, what problems does Brexit fix? Doesn't seem to be much point in replacing a bunch of working Poles with leather-coloured retired Brits.