Politics So...Europe then?

[Embattle]

We're all doomed!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bodhi]

This won;t come as a shock to anyone who's spent any time in Europe, but it's not just us who are a bit hacked off with the EU - our French friends are seriously pissed off with the whole thing. Don't get me wrong - a lot of French issues are self inflicted (deeply unflexible Labour laws and taxes make it very difficult/expensive to hire people over there - which is a shame as French productivity is excellent), but there is a lot of disquiet about what was promised from the EU and what they're actually getting.

France shuns Europe as Brexit revolt spreads

Most interesting to me in there is the German and Spanish level of unhappiness with things. Greece is to be expected, and I will admit I thought it was higher in the Netherlands given some of the conversations I've had over there. All very interesting however.

 

[Raven]

Yep, most of the key members are fed up with it, not necessarily the idea of the EU but the corrupt, unaccountable pile of shit that it is in its current form and the total lack of will to improve. Brexit will prompt France, Germany and the Netherlands to hold their own referendums. If the main parties don't do it then they will simply be brushed aside for someone who will. The old boys network are terrified.

 

[Embattle]

HS2 could be doomed if we leave, it is a strange comment since quite a few people think it'll be massively over budget and a complete waste of money.

I always got the feeling the French got annoyed once they realised that the EU/other members weren't there to purely service them.

 

[Raven]

Its funny how they think the massively over inflated house prices are a good thing too. Saying house prices would crash as if its a bad thing. Good luck buying a house without daddy footing the deposit, there is no way young people can afford to pay over inflated rent and save for a deposit.

They are high because demand far outweighs supply. We just cannot build enough houses, let alone infrastructure for 300,000 extra people a year, its just not going to happen.

 

[Gwadien]

Its funny how they think the massively over inflated house prices are a good thing too. Saying house prices would crash as if its a bad thing. Good luck buying a house without daddy footing the deposit, there is no way young people can afford to pay over inflated rent and save for a deposit.

They are high because demand far outweighs supply. We just cannot build enough houses, let alone infrastructure for 300,000 extra people a year, its just not going to happen.

Did you check the emigration statistics too on that recent graph?

Its pretty high too, we don't have 300,000 more people every year, we have around 50-100kish (I'm being very conservative in your favour here, iirc its a lot less)

Councils also fail year after year to build enough housing for the UK natives alone.

Also Brexiters have also said that immigration figures won't change, we'll just have more educated immigrants, and I don't see how that helps the problem, because instead of 10 Romanians sharing one 3 bedroom house you'll have one Indian brain surgeon living in a 4 bedroom house on his own...

Like you see a lot of 'we can build a new hospital every week for the amount of money we give to the EU' does that mean we'll have a new hospital every week or adequate housing across the UK or will it be a risky move to leave just to use the money for further austerity?

 

[Raven]

June 14 to June 15 was 336k NET, not seen any for June 15 to 16 yet but I doubt its changed all that much.

That's nearly a whole new Croydon every year.

 

[Embattle]

There is going to be such a shit storm whichever way this goes.

 

[Bodhi]

June 14 to June 15 was 336k NET, not seen any for June 15 to 16 yet but I doubt its changed all that much.

That's nearly a whole new Croydon every year.

That should be enough to scare anybody.

One Croydon is bad enough ffs. We don't need a new one every year.

 

[Embattle]

The countries services etc certainly don't need the extra pressure, not that leaving will result in a guaranteed improvement.

 

[DaGaffer]

Its funny how they think the massively over inflated house prices are a good thing too. Saying house prices would crash as if its a bad thing. Good luck buying a house without daddy footing the deposit, there is no way young people can afford to pay over inflated rent and save for a deposit.

They are high because demand far outweighs supply. We just cannot build enough houses, let alone infrastructure for 300,000 extra people a year, its just not going to happen.

Actually the projections up 2031 are that we need to build an extra 25K houses per year over the original estimates made back in 2001 and the revised in 2008. Partly that's because projections for single occupant households have actually gone down (probably because people can't afford it), which was always seen as one of the big structural causes of rising requirements for housing.

The second problem is the UK is building fewer houses per year than at any time since the 1920s. Immigration is making a massively fucked up housing market worse, but the problems are much deeper than that, especially as 60% of all the house building is needed in the Southeast and the Tories (and Labour before them to be fair) insist on leaving house building to the market, which means no social/affordable housing.

 

[Gwadien]

Actually the projections up 2031 are that we need to build an extra 25K houses per year over the original estimates made back in 2001 and the revised in 2008. Partly that's because projections for single occupant households have actually gone down (probably because people can't afford it), which was always seen as one of the big structural causes of rising requirements for housing.

The second problem is the UK is building fewer houses per year than at any time since the 1920s. Immigration is making a massively fucked up housing market worse, but the problems are much deeper than that, especially as 60% of all the house building is needed in the Southeast and the Tories (and Labour before them to be fair) insist on leaving house building to the market, which means no social/affordable housing.

Because its better to apply austerity measures and not build houses and invest into infrastructure and blame immigration instead.

 

[Raven]

I don't want to pay for even more social housing, I don't see why I should. Enough of my wages is already taken to pay for "things" Its depressing that there is even a need for it.

Really, if Europe actually worked it would be promoting growth in the shitholes that people are leaving, which it is to an extent but clearly not enough. All the EU are interested in is cheap labour for corps, meanwhile they drive down the wages of locals to the point that there is no incentive to work and even if they did there is no way they can buy their own place.

 

[Gwadien]

I don't want to pay for even more social housing, I don't see why I should. Enough of my wages is already taken to pay for "things" Its depressing that there is even a need for it.

Really, if Europe actually worked it would be promoting growth in the shitholes that people are leaving, which it is to an extent but clearly not enough. All the EU are interested in is cheap labour for corps, meanwhile they drive down the wages of locals to the point that there is no incentive to work and even if they did there is no way they can buy their own place.

You dont care about social housing yet you SERIOUSLY expect a Tory Government to increase wages as high as Labour and the Lib Dems have suggested (because let's face it, that's how high it should be if this is your argument)

Social housing isn't just for dole scroungers, as ive explained to you on a number of occasions, you're an exception to the rule, you made it, millions don't, do we just let them struggle because they were unfortunate not to make it?

I feel that you admit that you're a result of small s socialism but now you're wanting to deny the next generation that opportunity.

 

[Raven]

Thats not what I am saying at all. There shouldn't be a need at all. Housing should be affordable and could be, it doesn't cost 150k to build a house, especially the shoe boxes they build these days, it costs about 20-30. The only reason they have become so expensive is the huge demand that the supply cannot keep up with.

This suits private investment, little money in, large money out.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, government could build them and sell them on for a small profit or no profit at all. They would still get built, builders would still get paid and there would be affordable houses with little to no tax cost.

 

[Job]

Where the fuck are all the people living now that we have to build all these new houses for

 

[DaGaffer]

It doesn't have to be one or the other, government could build them and sell them on for a small profit or no profit at all. They would still get built, builders would still get paid and there would be affordable houses with little to no tax cost.

You've just described social housing! Social housing doesn't have to be council houses, it can be just affordable for key workers or subsidised. But no UK government is interested.

In defence of "property developers", their job is to maximise profit; and in places like the south east no-one in their right mind is going to build cheap houses on expensive land; it has to be the job of government to stimulate that; and as I said earlier the volume of housing required up to 2031 has already been forecast for a long time; the stresses on housing and infrastructure are down to successive governments on both sides of the divide sticking their head in the sand. Even if there was no net influx of immigrants this year or last, we would still have a problem.

 

[Gwadien]

Where the fuck are all the people living now that we have to build all these new houses for

Well, I'm living with my parents and probably will be for another few years whilst working as a teacher unless I move out and rent.

Issue is that buying in the UK is almost a right, we either need more houses or we accept a more continental approach and everyone rents, cheaply.

But EU.

 

[DaGaffer]

Where the fuck are all the people living now that we have to build all these new houses for

Living 10 to a house in places like Boston:

There is also a problem with local housing. Because some workers come temporarily, they do not mind housing themselves poorly for a spell.

So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year.

That is much more than local families can afford for those houses - and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand.

Local rents in Boston are actually much higher than in Nottingham despite wages being lower. This is a major problem within the town and has become a major cause of frustration. People living next door to these multiple-occupied homes are also not happy.

 

[Raven]

Well, I'm living with my parents and probably will be for another few years whilst working as a teacher unless I move out and rent.

Its likely you will be until your 30 if you ever want to own a house. As soon as you start paying 7, 8, 900 a month in rent roughly half your take home at 25k (average wage) it would be a massive struggle to save the 10% you need for a mortgage and even then you can only really get a mortgage for 3-4 times your combined salary, so 100k, 200k as a couple. That won't get you much in the Midlands, fuck all in the South.

Yes as a couple its easier but if you want to have a life it would be horrible. I really do pity the young where housing is concerned.

 

[chipper]

if we leave others will leave and the EU will crumble as it needs to. it is more corrupt than bleeding FIFA. the EU was a wonderful idea that has been twisted and turned into something horrifying. and i think the fact that the EU is willing to bypass protocols regarding joining the EU is just downright dangerous ye turkey you can join we will even fast track you oh but you must stop all the refugees and migrants from coming into the EU pretty sure turkey aint on the same page of human rights as we are.

the EU should be about countries contributing and helping each other and everyone benefiting but thats not what it is now. its a multi country nanny blanket, we know whats best for you etc when all this flared up i was very much pro EU but the more info i keep getting and i don't mean from the biased media. now i just want out yes it will affect us we might struggle for a few years hopefully we will come out of it a lot better off than we were

 

[DaGaffer]

if we leave others will leave and the EU will crumble as it needs to. it is more corrupt than bleeding FIFA. the EU was a wonderful idea that has been twisted and turned into something horrifying. and i think the fact that the EU is willing to bypass protocols regarding joining the EU is just downright dangerous ye turkey you can join we will even fast track you oh but you must stop all the refugees and migrants from coming into the EU pretty sure turkey aint on the same page of human rights as we are.

the EU should be about countries contributing and helping each other and everyone benefiting but thats not what it is now. its a multi country nanny blanket, we know whats best for you etc when all this flared up i was very much pro EU but the more info i keep getting and i don't mean from the biased media. now i just want out yes it will affect us we might struggle for a few years hopefully we will come out of it a lot better off than we were

Your first paragraph is just flat out wrong. Despite the Brexiters saying the EU can just let any state join, its simply not true; every EU state has a veto, and there are a ton of EU states who would be ahead of the UK in queue to exercise that veto. The Greeks, the Hungarians, the Austrians, the Poles, pretty much all of the eastern European states in fact, would give a flat "no". The blatant scaremongering about this is ridiculous to the point where people are running around stating Turkey is a done deal. It just isn't, and despite Merkel's accommodation with Erdogan, its probably getting further away, not closer.

As for your second paragraph, you're kind of contradicting yourself; you want "helping each other and everyone benefiting" (which they do by the way, including the UK), but then talk about "multi-country nanny blankets". Helping each other comes with obligations as well as benefits, and that has to mean a certain amount of commonality and standardisation of purpose. Frankly its the EU not "nannying" that's caused some of its most spectacular failures (like the ERM and Greek debt.)

As a side issue I don't believe the average person gives a shit about "helping each other"; naked short-term self-interest is the only motivator.

 

[Job]

The vetos can be and often are overuled...EUs ultimate aim is to control as much of Europe and North Africa as it can, eventually, without any doubt, we will see Moroccans and Algerians with free movement across the federation...this is not conspiracy tin hattersville, they have openly shown their interest in this.

So now Osbournes bricking it and has deemed that he can speak for the EU and deny Turkey entry...the Turks have gone ballistic...oh the happy clappy EU, what a complete fuk up.
We dont want Turkey because our voters are racist against Turks...sit back and enjoy the show folks.

 

[Scouse]

200k as a couple. That won't get you much in the Midlands

200k would get @Gwadien a 4 bed semi in a reasonable part of Nottingham.

 

[DaGaffer]

The vetos can be and often are overuled...EUs ultimate aim is to control as much of Europe and North Africa as it can, eventually, without any doubt, we will see Moroccans and Algerians with free movement across the federation...this is not conspiracy tin hattersville, they have openly shown their interest in this.

So now Osbournes bricking it and has deemed that he can speak for the EU and deny Turkey entry...the Turks have gone ballistic...oh the happy clappy EU, what a complete fuk up.
We dont want Turkey because our voters are racist against Turks...sit back and enjoy the show folks.

Citations please. The accession veto has never been overruled. It has been negotiated and withdrawn by the objecting country (the obvious example being Britain when De Gaulle vetoed us), but never overruled.

 

[Bodhi]

Brexit - and stay in the single market? Here's how - BBC News

Interesting.

 

[Embattle]

Again I remember the European Constitution being rejected in referendums, they then squeezed most of the same policies into the Treaty of Lisbon which no one got to vote on.

 

[Job]

It has been negotiated and withdrawn by the objecting country

And there we go.

 

[BloodOmen]

 

[Job]

Brexit - and stay in the single market? Here's how - BBC News

Interesting.

Brexit wont happen . even if we vote for it, it's not like they pull a plug, they'll simply take the entire list of deals and treatys and simply change the wording, nothing will be removed, it will just be put in hibernation or carefully adjusted so technically we are no longer in, but still doing the same shit.
I can guarantee , even if we leave the entire political conversation for the next ten years will be, 'But we are supposed to have cancelled that when we left!'
Money will protect money and the important stuff will be ringfenced or kicked into the long grass...this is how it works, democracy is an illusion, do you really think they would leave something as important as this to the unwashed masses.