Politics So...Europe then?

[ECA]

If we vote out he'll resign.

 

[Gwadien]

As much as I like Boris, and I think it'll be hilarious facing him off with Putin, I don't think a brand new 'independent' country would do very well with him at the helm.

 

[ECA]

You don't think the wonderfully charismatic George Osbourne or the Theresa May would win the leadership instead? :d

 

[Gwadien]

You don't think the wonderfully charismatic George Osbourne or the Theresa May would win the leadership instead? :d

Well, the word on the very posh chelsea streets is that if we get Brexit, it will increase the chance of Boris winning MASSIVELY, and there's speculation that's why he's decided to back Brexit.

 

[Raven]

An interesting map of people signing the petition regarding the propaganda pamphlets, if we assume most signing are in the out crowd.

Petition Map (by Unboxed)

 

[DaGaffer]

An interesting map of people signing the petition regarding the propaganda pamphlets, if we assume most signing are in the out crowd.

Petition Map (by Unboxed)

Poshos say no...

 

[Embattle]

An interesting map of people signing the petition regarding the propaganda pamphlets, if we assume most signing are in the out crowd.

Petition Map (by Unboxed)

I'm not convinced it would mostly the out crowd signing it, it seems a waste of money either way and might actually do more harm than good.

 

[Job]

Heres a breakdown of the EU's involvement in Europes wars.

1) The American Marshall Plan was largely instrumental in rebuilding European economies after the Second World War and restoring prosperity to a war-torn region.
2) From its inception in 1949, NATO deterred the Soviet Union from attacking; and deters the likes of Mr Putin to this day. Why has Putin attacked Ukraine and not the mighty Latvia?
3) German fascism was burned out by their experience in the Second World War. They are now a peaceful nation.
4) 1959-2011's Basque Conflict – the EEC/EC/EU played no part in resolution.
5) 1968-1998: The "Troubles" in Northern Ireland – the EU did nothing to help end the violence.
6) 1974: The Turkish Invasion of Cyprus – the EEC/EC/EU played no part in resolution.
7) 1991-1995: The Croatian War of Independence was mainly resolved thanks to the NATO -manned United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR).
8) 1992-1995: The Bosnian War was resolved by Dayton Accords giving NATO authority for action.
9) 1997: Unrest in Albania was resolved by NATO.
10) 1998-1999: The first Kosovo War was resolved by NATO.
11) 2001: Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia was resolved by NATO.
12) Further unrest in Kosovo was resolved by UN/NATO.
13) 2008: Yet more unrest in Kosovo was resolved by NATO.
14) 2011-2013: North Kosovo Crisis was resolved by NATO.

 

[Raven]

OK...and what has that got to do with anything?

Generally the EU does not take action in military conflicts, not as the EU, we do not have a joint military strategy, we leave it to NATO.

 

[TdC]

EU is not a military force you blockhead

 

[Job]

Er...that's the point...it isn't and has done nothing to maintain peace, if we leave it won't make jackshit difference to Europes security.
Maybe I should have explained the question.

 

[Job]

Anyway, I see the Ukraine..as expected is in even though the Dutch voted against it...rather obvious that was going to happen, but the most telling thing is they 'had to keep their promise' to Ukraine...allready decided I see.
Probably the most blatant use of self interest over democracy so far...has to have huge implications.

 

[Raven]

You do talk some bollocks, you should go on the telly.

 

[Scouse]

Er...that's the point...it isn't and has done nothing to maintain peace

Apart from uniting all of the countries under one banner, ensuring the longest uninterrupted peacetime that the european continent has ever experienced?

 

[Job]

No...that wasn't the EU as posted...it was Nato nipping the starting points of war in the bud...oh and nuclear weapons.
Europe is not united and is in fact now less united than ever thanks to the EU.

 

[Scouse]

Europe is not united and is in fact now less united than ever thanks to the EU.

So, we're not a collective of independent countries working cooperatively under a overarching legislative and political framework that our leaders signed up to after WWII in a successful attempt to ensure that we don't go to war with each other again?

Reading your posts makes me feel like I'm on drugs sometime @Job. I think you're beginning to lose it. About 18 months ago you were posting quite a lot of sense, but reading your stuff now reminds me of bumping into a woman at a gas station in the US who, wide-eyed, randomly and unprompted told me that Obama was going to declare martial law - and when I laughed out loud she looked at me like I was the mad one...

 

[Job]

That soundbite pretty well sums up the equally useless UN.
It's America and nukes that have kept peace in Europe.

 

[Raven]

You mean the UN that has intervened in countless conflicts around the globe, protecting millions of people...that UN?

 

[Scouse]

It's America and nukes that have kept peace in Europe.

How do nuclear weapons stop Germany attacking France, us attacking Spain?

Oh, they don't. It's fuck all to do with it. War in Europe is prevented by us being nice to each other and trading under the EU umberella. Prior to that we fought like twats for aeons.


The EU is the reason for peace WITHIN Europe. You're talking about external threats - which has fuck all to do with anything, at all, ever - and is totally irrelevant to this debate.

 

[Wij]

The EU is the reason for peace WITHIN Europe.

Let's not go overboard. It's A reason, not THE reason.

Prosperity, travel, democracy and the free exchange of ideas over media also help. We don't want to go to war with France any more because we go to Provence on holiday and aren't desperate to send our children on another pointless slaughter.

 

[Raven]

And the fact WW1 and WW2 put an end to most of the twattery carried out by the elite of the time.

 

[Scouse]

Prosperity, travel, democracy and the free exchange of ideas over media also help

Yes, agree completely of course, but that's been greatly enabled post WW1 & WW2 twattery by the European institutions.

 

[Job]

The EU has done nothing but create division by forcing sovereign nstions together...right now those relations are at breaking point, without military might not connected to the EU project, war would have broken out by now...you seem to be under the impression that a flag and trade have made everyone forget their differences and keep smiling over the fence.
We have fallen out with Russia..EU's fault...there are barb wire fences right across the bottom of Europe..EU's fault..the UK is having a referendum to leave...mostly the EU's fault...the extreme right are on the rise..EU's fault.
Expansionism and federalism simpky make the EU the new Nazi Germany...fronted by...oh yes the Germans.

 

[Job]

You mean the UN that has intervened in countless conflicts around the globe, protecting millions of people...that UN?

The UN? Protecting people..hardly, they send a few people in blue helmets who promptly get rounded up and then...mostly the Americans..have to go save them as well.
UN peacekeeping forces are ignored by everyone unless it suits them to do a deal.

 

[Scouse]

I think you've gone mad tbh. Focussing on the tiny fractures than the overwhelming reality.

I still like Gemans, they're lovely people. As are the French, Spanish, Italians, Swiss, maybe not the dutch. The freaky dutch. Or the twelvety-toed Belgiums.

The point is the masses still travel to europe, integrate well, send our kids on exchange holidays, buy their food and beer and wine, learn their languages.

It's the far right agitators that are screaming that we're flying apart. People like you who seem to be in massive mental pain at the obvious reality that, at a very basic level, we're getting along fine.

But then you seem to be suspicious of / hate everything and everybody. Poles, muslims, Europe, the UN. Is there anything you actually *like* @Job? Or are you just a dirty scouse whiner, adrift in a bigger world that find you and your ancient opinions utterly irrelevant, bitter about the fact that people don't give a shit about quality plumbing work if they can get an eastern european to just do the job but cheaper?

 

[Job]

Are you really that naive that you can discount war because the Europeans are nice people and we holiday there.
Holy fuck my godfather travelled Europe 2 years before WW2 in a sports car, welcomed everywhere, friendly smiles, beautiful countries...a few years later we were carpet bombing them.
The real forces that cause conflict are being pushed to the edge while we all babble along under politically correct instructions.
The US and their nukes have kept peace...you know the ones they have stationed in every country.

 

[Gwadien]

Couldn't you argue that the reason why there hasn't been another war is because of changing in the world? - We've moved from land Empires to commerce Empires; America no longer needs to invade Russia because McDonalds and Microsoft are doing it for them.

Germany have used Europe to assert their power and authority across Europe too, especially with the use of their currency.

I wouldn't say that another major 'world' conflict has been stopped wholly by the EU, I'd say it's a major factor, but probably one of the less contributing major factors, I think generally people have dropped the nationalism flag, which is absolutely amazing, although it's coming back just of late,

I believe that the major contributing factor is the conduct of war itself, after two long and bloody wars, people, including the leaders of countries have realised that wars are no longer fought by pitched battles where the Generals wife can watch from a nearby house and then everyone shakes hands after the fight and agrees that the victor takes a couple of hundred miles of territory.

Germans are a funny bunch really, their national identity is about asserting power across Europe, they're a strong collection of small principalities (originally) and they needed to justify their unification by doing something with it, I think they've largely got over that, with the exception of the Euro.

That being said, I will probably still vote in, but I think arguing very contested and complicated arguments is a poor strategy to try and win this referendum.

 

[Raven]

Are you really that naive that you can discount war because the Europeans are nice people and we holiday there.
Holy fuck my godfather travelled Europe 2 years before WW2 in a sports car, welcomed everywhere, friendly smiles, beautiful countries...a few years later we were carpet bombing them.
The real forces that cause conflict are being pushed to the edge while we all babble along under politically correct instructions.
The US and their nukes have kept peace...you know the ones they have stationed in every country.

I have never been to war with anyone in Europe, neither has my wife.

 

[DaGaffer]

No...that wasn't the EU as posted...it was Nato nipping the starting points of war in the bud...oh and nuclear weapons.
Europe is not united and is in fact now less united than ever thanks to the EU.

Idiot. What's missing from your little analysis? Oh yeah, no-one in the EU has fought against each other. The EU keeps France and Germany from kicking each other to bits every fifty years and dragging the rest of us in with them. Not NATO, the EU, because it creates deep economic interdependence and common political outlook(ish) .

Let's not go overboard. It's A reason, not THE reason.

Prosperity, travel, democracy and the free exchange of ideas over media also help. We don't want to go to war with France any more because we go to Provence on holiday and aren't desperate to send our children on another pointless slaughter.

Well, eehhh...no. The Elites (the ones who START wars) always went to France (and Germany and Italy), didn't stop them dragging the rest of us peons off to slaughter each other every few years. Scouse is mostly right, the EU is by far the biggest reason Europeans have gone from the most violent people on Earth, to the least, because it gave those selfsame elites a less risky way to wealth and power. The other big reason is of course the Cold War and effectively letting the Americans run our wars for us; and that chicken is now well and truly coming home to roost.

And the fact WW1 and WW2 put an end to most of the twattery carried out by the elite of the time.

WWI didn't put an end to European wars, hence WWII. One could definitely argue that the horrors of war should have made everyone forget about fighting each other, but it hasn't happened for most of human history. I actually don't think even the threat of nukes would have slowed down European enmities without something like the EU to bind the place together; historically we're an awful nasty bunch.

 

[Raven]

WW1 saw the end of inbred European royalty sending people to war.