Politics So...Europe then?

[Job]

Well you can take sides and blame the media for negative reporting on brexit, but you can equally blame the media for negative reports on the EU before the vote, so its swings and roundabouts.

The trick is never believe any shit you read in the press

 

[Job]

I don't think the media has much swing one way or the other at this point - they report good and bad news (although obviously some of it will be agenda-driven). The fact that there's apparently more bad than good is just reflective of the situation. For every story about a company committing to the UK there's either a subtext of them basically holding the government to ransom or other stories about companies moving staff overseas. On Monday Deutsche Bank said they expect the pound to fall to near-parity with the dollar, is that good news too?

That one is just hilarious, a major bank predicting a huge fall in the pound..really, so I presume the worlds hedge funds are on to it, poised to make trillions..no, because its bollocks, they could never know.

 

[Ormorof]

Or you know, they know they are going to make billions either way because hey thats how banking works these days it seems

 

[Job]

Only Sweden, Germany and France are pursuing Paris climate goals, says study

 

[Scouse]

Bets on announcing reciprocal agreements with major partners on currently living foreigners and expat UK citizens in the next week?

It'd be great news for them but horribly cynical of the government - engineering a positive news story from something that should never have been a thing.

Or maybe not?

 

[Raven]

The EU are just as guilty of using people as pawns.

 

[Scouse]

The EU are just as guilty of using people as pawns.

Such a childish argument.

We should have taken the moral high ground. The fact that we didn't makes us fucking scum regardless of how others act.

 

[fettoken]

Swedish newspapers expresses concern about border controls in Northern Ireland, and what it might bring.

 

[Raven]

Such a childish argument.

We should have taken the moral high ground. The fact that we didn't makes us fucking scum regardless of how others act.

If you say so...

Do you also think the EU are scum for refusing to promise anything too? (it is an identical position from both sides)

It must be wretched living in a country you hate, if only there was a way out.

Or how about this for an option. Neither side wants to give anything away just because a handful of angry people on the internet think they should and would rather wait to discuss it as part of wide ranging talks in the coming years.

 

[Scouse]

@Raven - you look after your own behavior first. You don't point at the other kids and go "mwahhhh!! but they're not doing it!!!"

Your argument is horridly childish. You've heard the maxim "two wrongs don't make a right" - and that applies here.

For an analogy that is more suited to you: we've reduced ourselves to the level of two drunken chavs fighting in the street rather than us being the better man and walking away.

Whatever way you argue it - we've acted like pitiless fucking scum. How the EU has acted is utterly irrelevant to the argument.

This is people's lives. It's fucking abhorrent that the UK has chosen to be part of the problem. Everything else is fair game. Not that.

 

[Raven]

Oh dear...

It really isn't as simple as that.

Are fishing rights fair game? As in fishing rights that are people's livelihoods? Oh wait, no, as with everything they will be part of wide ranging discussions too. That is how a negotiation works, emotion such as yours shouldn't come into it.

fwiw, I agree that we should have got it out of the way but seeing as the EU appear to be in full jealous ex-wife mode it would be daft to offer them something for nothing.

Regardless, it is likely you are getting yourself all worked up over nothing anyway. I imagine it will be agreed that there is some sort of arrangement for people to stay if not an agreement that free movement remains as part of a trade deal.

 

[Raven]

Anyway its done, 2 more years of listening to incessant whining.

 

[DaGaffer]

The EU are just as guilty of using people as pawns.

The UK are leaving the EU, its beholden on the UK to make the first move since they're the ones deciding they don't want dirty furriners no more. This didn't need Article 50 to get sorted. Problem is there are Tories suggesting that EU citizens who come to the UK now (Article 50 countdown day 1) should have fewer rights than people who arrived yesterday. Understandably the EU thinks that's a shit idea and they're not wrong. Problem is the Tories seem to think that if they don't do that they'll be inundated with all those people in the EU desperate to get to the sunlit uplands of blighty before the door closes. Despite the fact that all the evidence since last June shows EU immigration is already falling, because of course it fucking will.

 

[Raven]

eek, is that old bullshit still being peddled? Just immigration?

Edit, It doesn't matter who is leaving who. Who lives where and with what rights. It is still part of the negotiation, you do not open negotiations with an (ever more) obnoxious other party by presenting them with a bunch of bargaining chips. This is something that needs to be discussed without emotion being involved.

And as said, what about other things that need to be agreed? Working rights, fishing rights, trade rights. People's careers are as important to where they live, why would it be fair to start off by saying "yeah don't worry about it, live where you like" but then not agreeing about other, just as important things before they are negotiated.

 

[old.user4556]

Explain to me like I'm a retard.

What's to stop a pro-EU party (I dunno, like, Labour...) creating a mandate for a referendum on joining the EU?

 

[Ormorof]

As far as i am aware now thst it has been triggered it cannot be cancelled without a treaty change, any rejoining of EU would have to happen afterwards

And one of conditions of EU membership these days is joining the Euro...

 

[Raven]

Edit edit. and as said, it is likely that angry internet types are getting themselves into a state about nothing. It would be hugely impracticable for everyone to unravel x years of migration. People here will stay, people there will stay.

 

[Ormorof]

Being in a situation where that is not guaranteed is worrying though

I know many EUers in UK, most have one worry about brexit, and that worry is all about their residency status (many of them have been in the UK for decades)

 

[caLLous]

It would be hugely impracticable for everyone to unravel x years of migration.

Whereas unravelling x years of everything else that connects the UK to the EU will be a walk in the park? I'm not sure "it would be impracticable" can be used in the current climate when assuming something will or won't happen. You would've thought that untangling 4 decades of international relations would be impracticable but it's happening.

 

[Raven]

Yeah...nobody said that though...so...

But if you think that changing a bunch of regulations is as complicated as repatriating people who have lived here (or there) potentially for decades then...wow.

 

[caLLous]

Except you, when you specifically picked out migration as being "hugely impracticable" to unravel, which suggests you think everything else will be... less impracticable. The point being, just because something is impracticable doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

Anyway, more optimism. Brexit does not provide a single major opportunity to improve the UK economy in the long term

 

[Raven]

Except you, when you specifically picked out migration as being "hugely impracticable" to unravel, which suggests you think everything else will be... less impracticable.

erm. Quite a leap there. All I said was it was not something that we can just decide by some glib announcement made before any negotiation has taken place. It is highly likely that people will stay where they are now, it is somewhat likely that there will be little change to current migration.

Do you seriously think that millions (yes, millions) of individual cases could simply be solved by basically telling them to "get out" or "yeah mates, feel free to stay or whatever, don't worry about the details we will sort them later LOL" Don't be so openly dumb.

Maybe its because I said it that you have to automatically take the opposite view, regardless of how desperately simple minded it makes you look...I dunno, just an idea.

 

[Bodhi]

Live Updates: British Pound Pares Gains Against Euro and Dollar as May Offers Concilliatory Message to Europe in Parliament

Interesting predictions in there - some analysts believing Sterling could actually recover properly now Article 50 has been triggered.

(a choice of words I love by the way)

 

[Job]

I think its fair to say given the governments track record on immigration, that all you'll need to do is turn up as a man in a dress or say you once looked at a picture of a war zone and youre in.
If Brexit is the absolute disaster every liberal paper says it is going to be, why is an intelligent woman like May so keen to throw her legacy in the bin, I'm still not convinced she isn't simply a decoy.

 

[DaGaffer]

eek, is that old bullshit still being peddled? Just immigration?

Edit, It doesn't matter who is leaving who. Who lives where and with what rights. It is still part of the negotiation, you do not open negotiations with an (ever more) obnoxious other party by presenting them with a bunch of bargaining chips. This is something that needs to be discussed without emotion being involved.

And as said, what about other things that need to be agreed? Working rights, fishing rights, trade rights. People's careers are as important to where they live, why would it be fair to start off by saying "yeah don't worry about it, live where you like" but then not agreeing about other, just as important things before they are negotiated.

Who said anything about "just" immigration? It is nevertheless a fact that the end of free movement is now a UK red line. And speaking as someone who lives in the EU, I'm not a fucking bargaining chip.

All the other things can be negotiated, but the actual fate of human beings should come first.

 

[CorNokZ]

Will us foreigners be allowed on FH, without @Deebs having a copy of our passports?

 

[Job]

The only reason free movement became a problem was when they started talking about letting muslims into it.
Then everybody lost their shit.

 

[DaGaffer]

The only reason free movement became a problem was when they started talking about letting muslims into it.
Then everybody lost their shit.

Yeah, because they haven't been complaining about Poles nicking jobs for the last decade.

 

[BloodOmen]

Don't forget to set your clocks back 44 years btw fellow brits.

 

[old.user4556]

Will us foreigners be allowed on FH, without @Deebs having a copy of our passports?

Who nose.