Politics So...Europe then?

[DaGaffer]

No it wont solve it, neither would remaining, nobody has said it would. But...why not just completely and utterly own the people that have put you in that position?

I am not arguing from my position (makes little difference to me one way or the other) I am arguing from the position of people who do not necessarily move in the same circles as me.

I'm afraid I disagree. One of the benefits of globalisation that Brits routinely failed to embrace, is free movement of labour. Over the last 30 years half the population has moved to London from the rest of the UK (yes, its not Poles that are the reason all the hospitals and schools are full, its northerners), but they failed, in the main, to make the leap that the rest of Europe was their job market as well. Sitting on your arse waiting for jobs to magically come to you is done, that world is never coming back, and Brexit, and Trump talking about bringing jobs back to the rust belt etc. are based on a lie. Even if jobs did come back, it won't be the types of job that kept...say, Teeside, in work for most of the 20th century. It will still be zero hour contracts at one end and skilled tech jobs at the other. All Brexit is going to do is diminish what limited opportunities there were, even further.

 

[Raven]

You are still missing the point. That is not how many people see it and just calling them stupid, or rather bizarrely in your case, calling them lazy, will not change their mind.

You can argue the benefits or otherwise amongst fellow remainers all you like, you can pick the bones until the world spins into the sun, it will not change anything. You need to convince people to change, or at least their opinions. Which is what the remain camp completely and utterly failed to do.

 

[Job]

I'm afraid I disagree. One of the benefits of globalisation that Brits routinely failed to embrace, is free movement of labour. Over the last 30 years half the population has moved to London from the rest of the UK (yes, its not Poles that are the reason all the hospitals and schools are full, its northerners), but they failed, in the main, to make the leap that the rest of Europe was their job market as well. Sitting on your arse waiting for jobs to magically come to you is done, that world is never coming back, and Brexit, and Trump talking about bringing jobs back to the rust belt etc. are based on a lie. Even if jobs did come back, it won't be the types of job that kept...say, Teeside, in work for most of the 20th century. It will still be zero hour contracts at one end and skilled tech jobs at the other. All Brexit is going to do is diminish what limited opportunities there were, even further.

Quite correct, but the forces of global employment and AI means that process will eventually take out the jobs in London, maybe move to India?
The end game is London will continue to fill with low pay immigrants, in fact this week figures show 70% of births in London have at least one 1st gen immigrant parent.
We will have to make London the new Bombay to compete.
The Chinese are throwing billions into Africa because they want a future ultra cheap workforce a billion strong to keep their economy going.

 

[DaGaffer]

You are still missing the point. That is not how many people see it and just calling them stupid, or rather bizarrely in your case, calling them lazy, will not change their mind.

You can argue the benefits or otherwise amongst fellow remainers all you like, you can pick the bones until the world spins into the sun, it will not change anything. You need to convince people to change, or at least their opinions. Which is what the remain camp completely and utterly failed to do.

What point am I missing? You basically said the Brexit vote was a vote against globalisation. Fine, get that, pointed out that it won't work, you agreed but said remain wouldn't work either, and I disagreed with that. I didn't disagree with Brexiters, I disagreed with your statement, because I simply don't agree that remain and leave have the same (lack of) impact. I'm not trying to convince Brexiters of anything (that ship has long sailed), I'm simply disagreeing with something you said.

 

[Raven]

No, what I actually said that it won't make any difference to peoples (Not mine) lives, one way or the other, they had fuck all before, they have fuck all now and they will have fuck all after we leave, so voting out makes no difference to people's issues. But, and here is the rather simple point you are deliberately missing. That is not how people (not me, understand yet?) who voted out feel, whether they have come up with it themselves or been told by others is irrelevant. It was up to the remainers to convince them otherwise but instead they decided to just call them stupid.

I am concerned that you don't understand the concept of seeing why people do things, even when its laid out in front of you. You know you can discuss other peoples motives while not agreeing with them...right?

 

[Raven]

Edit. Also, they would have fuck all if we remained.

Lots of people literally have nothing to lose and haven't done for some time, governments come and go but change nothing, they promise a lot and deliver nothing. What other way do people have for forcing some sort of change? (and again, for clarification, because you know...) People as in, not me, see it that way.

Now that's settled (hopefully!)

How would you change their mind?

Would you, A, call them stupid and or racist.

Or would you B, engage with them and convince them otherwise.

 

[DaGaffer]

Edit. Also, they would have fuck all if we remained.

Lots of people literally have nothing to lose and haven't done for some time, governments come and go but change nothing, they promise a lot and deliver nothing. What other way do people have for forcing some sort of change? (and again, for clarification, because you know...) People as in, not me, see it that way.

Now that's settled (hopefully!)

How would you change their mind?

Would you, A, call them stupid and or racist.

Or would you B, engage with them and convince them otherwise.

FFS. They had fuck all if we remained but they had more opportunities, they chose not to exercise them. After Brexit they still have fuck all but have even fewer opportunities because their potential job market has shrunk. So YOU were wrong about Brexit and remain being the same.

I'm not trying to convince Brexiters of anything, because a. its far too late, b. I've already voted with my feet long before Brexit, and c. every Brexiter I've actually spoken to directly (not online) has turned out to be a depressing racist fed on a diet of Daily Mail bullshit, and worst of all, some of them have been members of my own family who were by no means economically disadvantaged by globalisation (quite the reverse).

Try as I might, for every person I talk to who has some cogent (if misinformed) view about globalisation or economics or domestic sovereignty, my direct experience is telling me there are 10 more who are just racists dressing it up with other shit that makes it look more palatable.

 

[Raven]

FFS. They had fuck all if we remained but they had more opportunities, they chose not to exercise them.

Jesus fucking Christ, are you being deliberately stupid?

I didn't say they didn't have more opportunities. I said that is how they saw it, and yet again <Neonlighting> THEY <Neonlighting> saw it, not how it was, not how I saw it, How they saw it. For fucks sake, how hard of a concept is it?

Do I need to break out the crayons and flowcharts?


But, as pointed out in your last paragraph, you think 16million (or whatever) people are racist, so yeah...carry on.

 

[DaGaffer]

No it wont solve it, neither would remaining, nobody has said it would. But...why not just completely and utterly own the people that have put you in that position?

 

[Raven]

So how would remaining have changed anything? Would being in, and then still being in mean things carry on exactly as they are? (Like I said) or would being in and then still being in mean people can suddenly afford some dignity? Nope... Will leaving mean they can afford some dignity? Nope...

But again, that has nothing at all to do with the current discussion, with me implicitly saying that people thought and still think that it is the only option for them, that leaving would create change, which is why they voted leave. It's moot whether they were right or wrong now, because yeah, the ship has long sailed so what difference does any of it make? What we can do is learn from our mistakes as a society but to learn we need to understand that yelling abuse at people will not change their mind.

If you were sat there wondering whether to spend your last few quid on food or electricity, do you really think you would care whether some twat in London will be able to afford a new Porsche this year?

 

[Ormorof]

Well as brexit has not happened the ship has not sailed, the negotiations havent even started so its a bit unhelpful to just yell "you dont understand! Oh i find this hilarious!"

How would you communicate the benefits of the EU to "joe public" who you claim we dont understand?

If 52% of the voters that voted leave are in fact living with that low standards of life then surely that is a massive failure of the UK government and not a lot to do with the EU?

 

[Raven]

I wouldn't because I don't much care one way or the other and realise that whether in or out it is still the same corporations deciding what happens. However, if I did I wouldn't start the lesson with "Listen up you poorly educated racists!"

Besides, people voted out for lots of different reasons, some because the EU is not helping them, some because they don't like the idea of an unelected government made up of corrupt and failed politicians telling them what to do and yes some because they are racist, or in the very least xenophobic. Some people did it because they felt like it. Point is, not everyone voted out for the same reason.

 

[Jupitus]

Besides, people voted out for lots of different reasons, some because the EU is not helping them, some because they don't like the idea of an unelected government made up of corrupt and failed politicians telling them what to do and yes some because they are racist, or in the very least xenophobic. Some people did it because they felt like it. Point is, not everyone voted out for the same reason.

Well, given your claim to know how 'the people' all feel about it all, can you give a detailed breakdown of those reasons?

 

[Raven]

Where did I saw 'All'

Or are you seriously suggesting everyone voted based on race? Really? 52% of the population are racist?

...

 

[Jupitus]

Or are you seriously suggesting everyone voted based on race? Really? 52% of the population are racist?

...

Stop being a tool, Raven...

some because the EU is not helping them

some because they don't like the idea of an unelected government made up of corrupt and failed politicians telling them what to do

some because they are racist, or in the very least xenophobic.

Some people did it because they felt like it.

That's 4 reasons you named your very self, so how can you interpret my post as '52% are racist'.

Nob.

 

[Job]

I would say 95% are racist..it's the default setting for the human brain.

 

[Shagrat]

I would say 95% are racist..it's the default setting for the human brain.

everyone line up, Job wants to measure our skulls to see if we belong in the master race or not.

 

[Gwadien]

Aww look guys, Job is trying to justify his own skewered views by theorising that everyone else has his views theyre just in denial!

 

[Job]

Actually endless psychological tests prove it.
We are inherently racist, you have to work at it not to be, white people associate white skin with better incomes, intelligence and morality.
Rabid racists are simply people who don't feel the need to contain it or bother to analyse their own prejudices and overide them with logic.
It's a very difficult subject, because calling some an inherent racist does not get a good reaction.
It's not even about 'race', skin colour and culture is just a handy way to pigeonhole people, southerners feel it about northerners, if you come from Liverpool you get used to peoples reaction when you mention your home city.
It ranges from the usual check the wallet joke to downright aggression.
It's what we are ..face it.

 

[Raven]

And then there is the people that just don't give a shit what colour someone is, because it makes absolutely no fucking difference to whether they are an arsehole or not.

People aren't born racist, there is no gene for it.

 

[Embattle]

 

[TdC]

"When Pokémon attack"

 

[Job]

And then there is the people that just don't give a shit what colour someone is, because it makes absolutely no fucking difference to whether they are an arsehole or not.

People aren't born racist, there is no gene for it.

I think there's every chance we will find one, though not sure it could be nailed down to a single gene.
Racism has shaped the world, it is an integral part of evolution, it is the main cause of massive world wars..but it would appear only certain 'types' are racist to the individual, we all like to rise above it, the same mentality that sells branded goods, fine wines..expensive trainers.
The reality is that racism is alive and well and will go on in the next 200 years to kill billions.
All because no one wants to admit to it.

 

[Scouse]

@Job - we've had that discussion on here before. Racism isn't ingrained - it's an easily-learned cultural reaction NOT a genetic thing. Science showed it. And you've been shown that. But whatever, keep your views.

 

[Job]

Well I did say its unlikely to be nailed down to a simple bit of code, but it is endemic in humanity.

 

[Raven]

No it isn't. Fear of strangers is built into us at an animal level, the same as fear of the dark, both of which are overcome fairly quickly. Has absolutely nothing to do with race though.

 

[gohan]

No it wont solve it, neither would remaining, nobody has said it would. But...why not just completely and utterly own the people that have put you in that position?

I am not arguing from my position (makes little difference to me one way or the other) I am arguing from the position of people who do not necessarily move in the same circles as me.

Ahhhh I see. the lesser known tactic of "If I'm so dumb then why is this grenade gonna kill us both? huh huh?"...... "you could you know, not pull the pin and we both live?" "nope too late I win!!!"

 

[Raven]

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Embattle]

@Job - we've had that discussion on here before. Racism isn't ingrained - it's an easily-learned cultural reaction NOT a genetic thing. Science showed it. And you've been shown that. But whatever, keep your views.

We've covered nearly everything many times over hence my cat image, until something new actually comes out all you lot tend to do is rehash old arguments that your dementia has caused you to forget.

 

[Job]

Yes..and I'm sticking to my guns and regardless..the proof is in the genocide.