RvR and Attitude

[othmaar]

Hi guys!

I played daoc for a long time and have been a reader and occasionally poster on freddys. In addition I am fond of rvr. Here is a few thoughts I have on the subject matter and the mindset I use in the game and a few tactical tips for new and inexperienced rvr players. I especially notice a lot of tension between healers and those that die a lot

Attitude
First off, lets be a little thick skinned. When I enter rvr mode it seems a devil wakes up inside me and I become this slightly rude guy that barks a lot in chat and on forums. /rude to enemies feel good and I laugh evilly when my target dies. I become annoyed when allied characters play like wimps or do stupid things ... even though sometimes it may be the right thing to retreat (usually it isn't imo). In any case I am not afraid to express my feelings on the subject, stepping on toes as I go along.

It occurs to me that many players take offense and think I am being personal. If so ... please stop and grow a sense of humor about it. Be angry and irritated but take it out on the enemy not each other. Why do you think Mythic implemented /rude but not /hug? Because they want you to be aggressive, the game mechanics reward offensive play style. If someone barks and rants about chickenshit play style, prove them wrong instead of wasting time on a whine "they're too many buhuum, WE is imba buhuu, they're too high level buhuu, nerf BW buhuu". I hate whines like that. While "Attack their f*ing healers, stop hacking at random targets focus fire, focus on the objective" comments are ok, even if they're sometimes misplaced they at least show enthusiasm and will to win.

WTF NO HEAL?!!!"11
Don't throw out random "wtf no heal?" comments. There are dozens of reasons why a healer cant keep you alive, some of them quite good. If you're in a group with healers (or other players) that suck, try to educate them, lead by example ... or just exit the damn group and see if you perform better ... sometimes It actually helps. When going solo I feel less bound to make sacrifices for the group and can choose targets a bit more selfishly, but most of the time you will be looking at the respawn timer a lot and you do not get rps for your kill if it dies after you do Going solo is a game option and there is nothing wrong with it, but don't expect anyone to support you. Besides fighting in a good group is really cool.

Retreat?
Don't do it unless you know exactly what you are doing. Melee classes have nasty rear position styles that makes your predicament even worse and they can gain bonuses. If you stand your ground you can at least die with dignity and maybe save the group. In addition if you tuck tail and run you make it really hard, not to mention risky as they must break formation, for your support to peel enemies off you. Also when one retreats it spreads and quickly becomes a route. Free rps for the enemy. Back up slowly towards base or friends to indicate you're in trouble. This way you normally last longer and you are more likely to receive aid. I know a lot of players see someone fleeing and think "screw that guy I will help those that fight". If you must retreat try to position yourself between enemy and a healer. If youre a healer, try to get a friendly dude between you and your target. And move backwards! The enemy have their rear assraping abilities right next to their /say lol macro button.

Healers, watch the DPS classes.
These guys can tear through enemy ranks really quick if they are kept alive. This will earn the group a lot of xp and renown not to mention win the battle. In scenarios sort the list on renown and heal the guys that earn the most renown. You will see purple numbers fill your screen you want to be in their group. When you see a WE or a WH go stealth and start a flank run? Follow their lead and charge. This is a dangerous gambit but will often end up in the enemy scattered and slaughtered. If you dont support these guys they get ripped to shreds in seconds. Use heal over time PREEMPTIVELY! Thats the whole point! Start them BEFORE combat, keep them running on all squishies that are doing something worthwhile and renown will pour in. Tanks do not need the same level of attention, they got more health and more armor and better defenses. You can save a dying tank, but the squishier classes need some really really powerful magic if they are below 20% and in the thick of it.

Play other classes
Unless you leveled a class to at least 10, preferably 20 you have absolutely no right to tell them how to do anything. Make a new character now and then and level it up to at least 10 to get a taste of the tactics and strategies that they have to work with. You will be surprised at how much easier it is to group with people if you know their classes a bit. Don't forget to roll both destruction and order and enjoy all of the game!

Hope some of this makes sense and will contribute to longer harder battles for both sides of the conflict, cheers

 

[Naul]

Well said m8 i agree with some of your points and alot of it makes sense just hope the ppl who decide to turn and sprint past me (healer) would read things like this so they could maybe learn that if they stay in front of me and keep me safe they are safe if i die it dont matter how hard they hit they will die.

One good point that i think u missed is that some classes need to learn their ablitys slightly better like i have a IB and i run past all the tanks pick a healer and launch him/her back at the dps (which have decided to hit their tanks) and to watch him run back past me again annoys the hell out of me. Thought i would throw my 2 cents in and hopefully help some ppl to enjoy oRvR more and decrease the amount they get moaned at. Hope to see more replys here to give good info for oRvR and SCs.

 

[Gear]

Some good points there. I'll just comment on the WTF HEAL!!1!!1!!1!!one thing, as it's quite common. If that goes on, I'll start spamming tanks and casters to dps! I mean wtf, I'm going to heal you, and it would have worked if you didn't think you're fucking rambo and overextended there!

Anyway, too late and too tired atm. NN all

 

[Svartmetall]

I'm just waiting for the first "FFS don't add!!!" moron to show up...

 

[Grotnob]

Some interesting points. I'll add a few things;

Renown Points
You will get there eventually. Renown points are really not that important and do not need to be sought at the expense of your team or indeed your realm. Yeah, that Bright Wizard really did need to die, but if your party and/or war band wipes because you can't keep your epeen in your epants and insist on charging down lone targets instead of sticking with and supporting the team, you're going to find yourself without many friends. Stop banging your dick on that attack sequence macro button you've just programmed and pay attention to what's going on around you.

Tanks
If you sod off and join up in your own little DPS and Pet Healer circle-jerks in ORvR and Scenarios, and leave the tanks out to dry, there will come a time when there will be no more tanks to keep the Witch Hunters, Witch Elves, White Lions and Marauders off your puffy cloth-wearing asses. You may not have noticed this, but tanks naturally draw a lot of enemy fire, and with proper support can tie up a heck of a lot of DPS which is then no longer coming down on you. Additionally, most tanks can debuff the enemy to heck and back making them much easier for you to kill them. They can only do this if they're alive.

Score Boards
This is going to come as a bit of a rude epiphany to an awful lot of people;

Score boards don't matter.

No, they don't.

No, they really really don't.

The only thing that matters in scenarios is victory, because that's what contributes to the campaign and gets your realm buddies one step closer to kicking Karl Franz (or Tzan'chithingywhatsit) in the happy sack. It doesn't matter how much damage you do, if you lose sight of the objective and run off in your own little world of purple numbers and dick waving, you will lose the scenario. You lose, even if you're top of the board for damage and kills.

 

[Twoeye]

I'm just waiting for the first "FFS don't add!!!" moron to show up...

i'v already experienced a couple of those ....quite funny ppl those "FFS don't add you tard !!!!"

 

[othmaar]

Grotnob is right, at the end of the day the tanks will save all our asses and renown will come by itself eventually. I will assert however that scoreboards and renown score in particular are good tools for learning and provide incentive to do better. In random scenario groups with little or no leadership, the pursuit of renown will pull towards victory and comparing renown scores with what you observe on the battlefield may teach important lessons. Remember though that the guys doing kamikaze runs to break up enemy formations will earn little or no renown, but may very well provide the opportunities needed to route the enemy.

 

[Jenk]

As a healer, I just wanted to add:

Squishies, if I heal you, this is not a cue for you to pull a leeroy jenkins. I am healing you because you are hurt, I am not going to concentrate all of my AP's on you from this moment on, so do not think that you are now free to run head first into the enemy players and that you'll be safe. I have other players to heal, and lets face it, the healing in WAR is not as powerful as other MMO's. Heal spells take a while to cast, and they don't heal for that much. If I see a squishy with <50% health and they are under attack, it is much more efficient to let you die, then res you, than to spunk my AP's trying to save you (and then watch you die anyway.)

 

[Zede]

all fine comments for scenarios !

but in orvr, all that means shit as mindless zerging is as good as it gets !

 

[Grotnob]

...

Remember though that the guys doing kamikaze runs to break up enemy formations will earn little or no renown, but may very well provide the opportunities needed to route the enemy.

People use formations? The only formation I've seen is the tried and tested "Offensive Blob" formation.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

i'v already experienced a couple of those ....quite funny ppl those "FFS don't add you tard !!!!"

Mess with their heads. Tell them they added

 

[othmaar]

People use formations? The only formation I've seen is the tried and tested "Offensive Blob" formation.

I have seen tendencies towards actually forming a sort of front/wall with tanks and some sort of support formation behind that, but mostly it is one big blob yes

With break formation i mean when some of the enemy jumps on the flanker, the big offensive blob becomes two or more smaller blobs moving in different directions. If tanks are there and paying attention they can make a push. This can allow the squishier rdps folks move forward for a short period of time so they can reach the enemy healers. Sometimes it has the opposite effect though ... especially if friendly forces hesitate.

 

[Bullitt]

A further note: the following "diagram" is typical of large scale skirmishing, the usual is.....

R --------> M <-------- R
A --------> E <-------- A
N --------> L <-------- N
G --------> E <-------- G
E --------> E <-------- E
D --------> . <-------- D

With all the fighting happening in the middle this often results in a tug-of-war-going-nowhere style play until something adds to the dynamic.

DPS classes: Don't be afraid to skirt the edges and get stuck in with the enemy ranged/healer group

It can throw them into complete chaos - drawing tanks back from the melee and making others flee. Leaving your healers and tanks to push forward.

 

[Boggy]

Some good points I'm sure many of us have thought at some time or another, othnaar.

A few similar ones that frequently occur to me

There's a Reason You are Not Being Healed
Very few healers actually role a healer then try to kill people, I would guess. People who wanna kill things roll any class but healer. The most likely thing a healer is doing the whole scenario is trying his hardest to heal everyone in the party. If you are not being healed, it's probably for a different reason than healer not trying. Here are some possibilities:

1. You are out of range: Either you have gone charging too far ahead or the healer has been slow to catch up (remember, many heals are castable so prevent movement). Easiest way to remedy is to try to pace your forward progress with the rest of your group. You can still be in the vanguard without being miles off.
2. You are out of LoS: Kinda similar to the out of range point, but a lot harder for you to prevent. It's mostly the healer's job to manage Line of Sight. Although, obviously, if you are standing in a little niche somewhere with a very narrow LoS arc, you will make it much harder for the healer to get to you
3. The healer is under attack: Did you check your healers' HP bar recently? If it isn't full, there could well be someone bashing him. If you're not in a group organised enough to have designated healer guards, GO BACK AND HELP IMMEDIATELY. When noone is given a specific job in a group, you cannot work on assumptions - the important tasks need everyone to respond. It's much better to have 4 people come back and mutilate the pair of WEs on your healer than to assume someone else will do it and suddenly have the whole group fold up cos your healer dies.
4. The healers are dead: Sometimes healers die. It should be rare, if the rest of the group are playing decently, for both healers to die when there are two. If there is only one, then that healer will probably die a fair amount even with guards (assist trains are hard to prevent). Unfortunately, the one person who will NEVER get a rezz in the game, is a solo healer. If you're not being healed, it's possible your healer is respawning/returning. Might be worth you running back to meet him. If an enemy is lurking on his route, you might never see your healer again!
5. You're in a guild group: Sounds like a weird reason, right? What I mean is, if you end up being the only non-guildie in a guild group you might find yourself bottom of the list for getting healed. It's not right, but it is human nature. Best tactic to remedy this is to point out politely, maybe via /tell, that you think it might be going on. Be sure it's not one of these other reasons first, though, cos it's gonna sound remarkably like a polite version of the FFS HEAL!
6. The healer is overstretched: If your group is taking very high amounts of damage, or even just normal amounts of damage when you have only one healer, the healer will not be able to keep up with the demand. Best thing to do here is play defensive a while. Pull back out of the main battle towards your healer to let him focus on other people.

Seeing red when you see red names is bad
Killing all the enemy repeatedly in RvR can be quite helpful some of the time. But there are quite a lot of times when immediately trying to kill any enemy you see is a bad idea.

 

[Tetley]

I have never known a healer yet who doesnt try to heal, thats why they play the class after all. So there is no point whining about healers.

The one thing in scenarios that really annoys me (other than being stunned by a tank half a mile away but that is a different topic) is people trying to tell me how I should be playing the game.

I have played this game and this class (BW) since in the beta, so what the hell makes some idiot think he knows how to play my character better than I do? I could understand in the lower tiers where new players may be, but by the time people reach T4 they tend to know how to play the game. Spend time in scenarios trying to kill destruction, not typing non stop comments on how useless everyone else is useless except you.

 

[Tallen]

A further note: the following "diagram" is typical of large scale skirmishing, the usual is.....

R --------> M <-------- R
A --------> E <-------- A
N --------> L <-------- N
G --------> E <-------- G
E --------> E <-------- E
D --------> . <-------- D

With all the fighting happening in the middle this often results in a tug-of-war-going-nowhere style play until something adds to the dynamic.

DPS classes: Don't be afraid to skirt the edges and get stuck in with the enemy ranged/healer group

It can throw them into complete chaos - drawing tanks back from the melee and making others flee. Leaving your healers and tanks to push forward.

I can't agree more.

Flanking is such a simple thing, get 1 WB group to slam into the back of a large scale fight and you'll screw them over completely.

 

[Zede]

I can't agree more.

Flanking is such a simple thing, get 1 WB group to slam into the back of a large scale fight and you'll screw them over completely.

good idea, pity the zones are so small, making flanking a tad difficult in a lot of situations

 

[Ctuchik]

i'm just gonna add one thing, dont care if its been mentioned before or not, HEALERS IS THE NUMBER ONE TARGET IF YOU ARE A RANGED DPS!

NOT tanks, or even enemy DPS of ANY kind, HEALERS DIE FIRST! and should be the ONLY thing a ranged DPS shoots at. unless you are absolutely forced to. and if you are, it probably means your team is either dead or not doing what they are supposed to.

if u so much as LOOK at anything but a enemy healer as a ranged class, u are wasting time unless its only you and your teams healer(s) left alive.

i'm getting so sick and tired of seing ranged DPS wasting their nukes when theres a load of healers 5 yards behind them and noone even touch them.

if their healers die or even for a moment have to stop healing them to heal themself, the battle is in many cases won.

you can't force a healer in this game to go "OOM" for any noticable length of time as they either use action points that generate pretty fast or use the other system that they can refill whenever they want, even faster.

and a special note to Squig herders, i know u need your pet alive to get the buff, but its WAY more useful attacking a healer then sitting idle at your side.

you have 4 to chose from, you may not always have the preffered buff up but that pet is just to good at disrupting healers to be left on passive.

a horned squig with the frenzy buff will make any healer nervous, no matter how good he is..

ranged DPS'ers jobs isnt to kill tanks or other melee/ranged DPS, your job is to kill or disrupt healers enough that they cant heal their team effectively.

leave everything else to melee DPS classes.

and for those that have a knockback, save those for the enemy melee dps that go for your healers rather then using it to save yourself, you will get ALOT more healing in the long run that way. heck, save the roots to for that purpose if u can. tho that one is to unpredictable. but it sure aint hurting.

 

[Ormorof]

agree with alot of points, for some inexplicable reason in WAR alot of tanks seem to be allergic to attacking healers (suits me fine when playing healer i must admit ) but dont be!

laughed at the "WTF no healz!" thing as generally speaking, the people who say that have run off out of line of sight of everyone else in the WB and thus cannot be healed even if we wanted to