Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Gwadien]

The Irish route is easiest for me as everything can be in English, to get an Italian passport I have to write everything in Italian which I don't know and my Dad is not that great at writing. Anyway, no need to get either yet but can if I want or need to.

dear italiano governmento,

I needero a passporterino, gracias.

 

[DaGaffer]

The Irish route is easiest for me as everything can be in English, to get an Italian passport I have to write everything in Italian which I don't know and my Dad is not that great at writing. Anyway, no need to get either yet but can if I want or need to.

Huh, I'd always assumed you were 100% Italian ancestry.

Irish government are getting a lot stricter with the applications now; 16,000 rejected last year on the ancestry rule. There's even talk of finally narrowing it to parents rather than grandparents.

 

[Deebs]

Huh, I'd always assumed you were 100% Italian ancestry.

Irish government are getting a lot stricter with the applications now; 16,000 rejected last year on the ancestry rule. There's even talk of finally narrowing it to parents rather than grandparents.

Irish grandparent on Mum's side.

 

[Yoni]

Not sure why this conversation is relevant anymore as Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why .... GB sucked when I left 11 years ago and from what I have seen it has gotten much much worse *pokes a few bears*

 

[Scouse]

Not sure why this conversation is relevant anymore as Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why .... GB sucked when I left 11 years ago and from what I have seen it has gotten much much worse *pokes a few bears*

I think you go for the passport to preserve your freedom of movement and removal of the resultant visa charges for when you go on holiday.

I'd jump at the opportunity, but don't qualify, so my portable prison ,(for that is what passports are) is getting smaller

 

[Deebs]

Not sure why this conversation is relevant anymore as Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why .... GB sucked when I left 11 years ago and from what I have seen it has gotten much much worse *pokes a few bears*

Well it is quite easy to explain why I don't wish to leave the uk:

1. My children
2. My grandchild (hopefully more to come)
   
3. My family
4. My friends
5. My work, I actually love my job

 

[Job]

Not sure why this conversation is relevant anymore as Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why .... GB sucked when I left 11 years ago and from what I have seen it has gotten much much worse *pokes a few bears*

What sucks..which bit?

 

[Job]

I must admit it is sad that if we leave we will have to join that miserable club of 90 fucking % of the world that isnt in the EU.

We can join them sulking at our lost opportunities for trade and having to run our own affairs.

Its tragic.

 

[dysfunction]

So you are saying we don't have access to that club while we are in the EU? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Deebs]

Not sure why this conversation is relevant anymore as Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why .... GB sucked when I left 11 years ago and from what I have seen it has gotten much much worse *pokes a few bears*

Have you read my response? Does living somewhere trump my values? Would love to hear your rationale.

 

[Job]

The Guard is entertaining at least.

Why Brexit has driven thousands back to their allotments

 

[Yoni]

Have you read my response? Does living somewhere trump my values? Would love to hear your rationale.

Were you drunk when you wrote this? You stated your values the first time you replied to this. All your values of are naturally commendable but what I am not sure with your European heritage why you would want to deny those opportunities to other Europeans? I get so completely frustrated with the 2nd / 3rd generation British voting to constrict the freedom of movement of future European generations whether British or not. Although stopping the youth from having an awesome life adventure is understandable when they will be needed to fill all those jobs previously done by those pesky immigrants... I actually wonder if the future British generations will have the same determination as non European immigrants who desire to live in a European country so much they will learn a language and take a job well below their ability or educational level for a better future for their children and grandchildren.

 

[Job]

You mean economic migrants.

Or as liberals call them , society enriching refugees.

 

[Job]

What sucks..which bit?

So you cant name anything in particular....just Europes better..because its trendy to think that.

 

[Scouse]

So you cant name anything in particular....just Europes better..because its trendy to think that.

She lived here, left, finds it better.

Unless you negate @Yoni's life experience and overall feeling because you don't like it.

Overall atmosphere seems to be her point. With people like you about I absolutely get that.

 

[Job]

Overall atmosphere.

Most of France is a shithole just like the UK, its the African ghetto/grafitti capital of Europe.
Paris is just fucking awful these days.

Its cherry picking, Cornwall..where I am now and where I was born is simply beautiful...nothing like it in Europe...more importantly for me is that the Brits know how to party.
Jesus, the Med is sooo boring.

 

[caLLous]

Cornwall, the region that's benefited most from EU subsidies. Great example.

As for the spirit of your post, it's just subjective bullshit to suit your argument (which seems to be that someone who has an opinion is wrong because Cornwall is nice or something) with your usual smattering of xenophobia.

 

[Job]

Im arguing against.
Oh I prefer it abroad, so it must be so much better....
The remainers have taken this self awarded morality high ground based on the continent is so much more sophisticated and cosmopolitan..inclusive..enlightened..blah..blah, while Britain is working class, knuckle dragging its way into obscurity.
A quick look at the political landscape of the EU tells a far different story.
A continent divided under the EU.

 

[Deebs]

Were you drunk when you wrote this? You stated your values the first time you replied to this. All your values of are naturally commendable but what I am not sure with your European heritage why you would want to deny those opportunities to other Europeans? I get so completely frustrated with the 2nd / 3rd generation British voting to constrict the freedom of movement of future European generations whether British or not. Although stopping the youth from having an awesome life adventure is understandable when they will be needed to fill all those jobs previously done by those pesky immigrants... I actually wonder if the future British generations will have the same determination as non European immigrants who desire to live in a European country so much they will learn a language and take a job well below their ability or educational level for a better future for their children and grandchildren.

No I was not drunk. I reread part of your message and this bit got me irked even more

Deebs has no intention in leaving the UK.. Although having embraced European life warts and all in several countries I for the life of me can’t understand why

To me it was showing disrespect to my values and prinicipals. Just because YOU can and did leave for your own reasons doesn't mean you get to devalue my reasons on why I choose to stay.

I am also pissed off with people harping on about the future generations loosing out. Well that argument goes for every single vote in the past which went the way of the winning side and not the loosing side.

If future and current generations think that much of being part of the USE then they will no doubt vote for a party whose manifesto includes a vote on a future and more fuller membership of Europe.

 

[Yoni]

No I was not drunk. I reread part of your message and this bit got me irked even more



To me it was showing disrespect to my values and prinicipals. Just because YOU can and did leave for your own reasons doesn't mean you get to devalue my reasons on why I choose to stay.
.

Sorry but no! You did not state your reasons for wanting to stay until after I made the post... so not disrespectful... additionally I reinforced your reasons for staying in my next post.

You are however 2nd generation British though? ie someone ‘allowed’. Your grandparent / grandparents to live in Great Britain? Don’t you think it is your duty to pay it forward to future generations or would you just in the words of Enoch Powell “send them home”...because when do you stop, at what point? maybe when the economy is in the toilet being 2nd generation won’t be enough not to be deported...

@Job why do I think the UK is shite?

Many many reasons but mainly because when I go out in my home city or the previous city I lived in.... when it is time to go home in the evening I can walk and feel safe... a stark comparison to how I felt in the UK... there is an “edgy” feel to being out after a certain time in the UK. On top of that pensions, national healthcare, roads, public transportation, schools, hospitals, police force, cost of childcare, low level of inclusion of other humans.... and finally the constant rain... -15 clear sky and crisp snow on the ground is so much nicer.

 

[caLLous]

Im arguing against.
Oh I prefer it abroad, so it must be so much better....

You're arguing against someone with extensive *living* experience in both. You don't have any experience of *living* in both. Your "argument" is that the med is boring and Paris is full of Africans. That's not an argument.

 

[caLLous]

I am also pissed off with people harping on about the future generations loosing out. Well that argument goes for every single vote in the past which went the way of the winning side and not the loosing side.

You could argue that everyone is going to end up on the "losing" side if Leave goes ahead (depending on what form it takes), especially the next generations. You've already said how thankful you are that you qualify for Italian or Irish citizenship so at least you can do a runner if what you voted for goes tits up (otherwise why would you say "thank fuck I qualify"), what chance do the next generations have? It's all very well saying "they can just re-join" but it'd never be as good a deal as the UK currently has.

You may cry "but it's an opportunity". No, it's a total shot in the dark that'll lead to at least a decade of uncertainty and an absolutely minuscule chance of being better than what the country currently has and catastrophic consequences (for future generations) if it goes wrong.

 

[Deebs]

Sorry but no! You did not state your reasons for wanting to stay until after I made the post... so not disrespectful... additionally I reinforced your reasons for staying in my next post.

You are however 2nd generation British though? ie someone ‘allowed’. Your grandparent / grandparents to live in Great Britain? Don’t you think it is your duty to pay it forward to future generations or would you just in the words of Enoch Powell “send them home”...because when do you stop, at what point? maybe when the economy is in the toilet being 2nd generation won’t be enough not to be deported...

Still doesn't matter, your flippant comment disregarded any of my reasons for wanting to stay.

My Mum was Irish/English (so I guess through my Mum I am not someone 'allowed' but a 'native') and my Dad is full Italian. He came to the UK in the 60's and sought British Citzenship and the right to live here. My duty is do what I believe is right for the UK exactly the same as your duty, however our opinions on what is best for the UK is vastly different. Enoch Powell is scum. When I was in Secondary School I had constant racism thrown at me every day being called a spick, diego, greasy wop bastard and because I have a mole on my forehead a paki.

 

[Deebs]

You could argue that everyone is going to end up on the "losing" side if Leave goes ahead (depending on what form it takes), especially the next generations. You've already said how thankful you are that you qualify for Italian or Irish citizenship so at least you can do a runner if what you voted for goes tits up (otherwise why would you say "thank fuck I qualify"), what chance do the next generations have? It's all very well saying "they can just re-join" but it'd never be as good a deal as the UK currently has.

You may cry "but it's an opportunity". No, it's a total shot in the dark that'll lead to at least a decade of uncertainty and an absolutely minuscule chance of being better than what the country currently has and catastrophic consequences (for future generations) if it goes wrong.

I have already stated that I will not leave the UK so I will not be doing a runner. The "thank fuck I qualify" was suffixed with a

Look, the problem is that the UK is neither in or out of Europe and our current perks just underline the divide here. Future generations will be able to ensure that the UK is a fully signed up and commited member of the EU with no "special" perks or vetos.

I have also mentioned that I am up for a 2nd referendum if it helps gets this shitshow laid to rest one way or the other, IOW, I am prepared to accept that Remain may win and my democratic vote in 2016 was meaningless.

 

[Yoni]

Still doesn't matter, your flippant comment disregarded any of my reasons for wanting to stay.

My Mum was Irish/English (so I guess through my Mum I am not someone 'allowed' but a 'native') and my Dad is full Italian. He came to the UK in the 60's and sought British Citzenship and the right to live here. My duty is do what I believe is right for the UK exactly the same as your duty, however our opinions on what is best for the UK is vastly different. Enoch Powell is scum. When I was in Secondary School I had constant racism thrown at me every day being called a spick, diego, greasy wop bastard and because I have a mole on my forehead a paki.

It isn’t fun having to justify why you are allowed to stay is it?

Nor is it fun being persecuted for being different either?

I truely believe this decision to leave is going to mean much more intolerance for people who don’t look or sound English enough regardless of heritage and I truly believe this decision does not make the UK a better place to be.... I believe that it plays into the hands of frog mouth Farage and the BNP and short sighted people like Job who believe leaving the EU will make Britain “great” again....

 

[Deebs]

It isn’t fun having to justify why you are allowed to stay is it?

Nor is it fun being persecuted for being different either?

I truely believe this decision to leave is going to mean much more intolerance for people who don’t look or sound English enough regardless of heritage and I truly believe this decision does not make the UK a better place to be.... I believe that it plays into the hands of frog mouth Farage and the BNP and short sighted people like Job who believe leaving the EU will make Britain “great” again....

Well to be fair my Dad knew he and his Mum would have to work hard to gain the right to live here and gain his (not his Mum) British Citizenship. What is ironic is that he and his Mum left Italy as it was in such a shit state (and for another reason) and they believed the UK would offer a better quality of life and for his dues my Dad has worked his fingers to the bone literally as he did not receive hardly any education whilist living in Italy.

Any form of racism is just wrong. I made it clear to my kids when they were growing up how bad it is and if I thought they were being racism in anyway they got a severe telling off. The problem is that children either "learn" it from shitty parents or from school. Do I believe it is getting worse? Absolutely. I think it peaked in the 80s with the APL etc then slowly went away to a degree but it is rising again and Brexit is certainly not helping in the slightest.

 

[MYstIC G]

I think everyone has allowed themselves to be divided and conquered by those in our society who are so rich as to remain completely unaffected by any of this. We're all now focused on nation -v- nation bullshit. The ground over which you are born in reality means absolutely nothing unless you choose to give it relevance.

It would be far more sensible to focus on the redistribution of resource (wealth) so that everyone has a decent standard of living. IMHO the fact that we aren't doing this is what will really end up disadvantaging future generations on both sides.

 

[Yoni]

I think everyone has allowed themselves to be divided and conquered by those in our society who are so rich as to remain completely unaffected by any of this. We're all now focused on nation -v- nation bullshit. The ground over which you are born in reality means absolutely nothing unless you choose to give it relevance.

It would be far more sensible to focus on the redistribution of resource (wealth) so that everyone has a decent standard of living. IMHO the fact that we aren't doing this is what will really end up disadvantaging future generations on both sides.

I whole heartedly agree... higher taxation for high earners would absolutely start to help

 

[Yoni]

Going back to the post about dear old Enoch / sarcasm

Sometimes I see the UK like :

 

[Deebs]

Where would you set the threshold for a high earner and at what rate without driving people out ?