Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Scouse]

Because it's a joke?

I'm not necessarily against your position - but explain why brexit should be an economic decision alone?

 

[dysfunction]

I'm not necessarily against your position - but explain why brexit should be an economic decision alone?

I didn't say it would be but it a pretty major part. Dont think it's worth paying min of 70bn for the privilege of the other so called "benefits" on top of the economic issues.

Not really benefits vs what's going to be sacrificed

And we've not even negotiated ongoing relationship so who knows what the relationship will be like. Things may be quite similar to what we have now but with none of the benefits of being in.

 

[DaGaffer]

Pite economic assessment yep.

Is 70bn worth the other stuff we'd gain though? (Borders, laws etc...)

And what gains would those be? Actual and provable. And if you say "sovereignty" I may throw up.

 

[Scouse]

And what gains would those be? Actual and provable. And if you say "sovereignty" I may throw up.

No longer having to work under the EU ruleset when it comes to stuff like state aid, control of borders, making own laws, freedom from ECJ etc.

Ofc - you could see them as losses too - but not everyone will.

 

[caLLous]

No longer having to work under the EU ruleset when it comes to stuff like state aid, control of borders, making own laws, freedom from ECJ etc.

Ofc - you could see them as losses too - but not everyone will.

Haven't you spoken before about the "race to the bottom" that would occur in certain industries without EU oversight of the regulations? Is that a gain too?

 

[Scouse]

Haven't you spoken before about the "race to the bottom" that would occur in certain industries without EU oversight of the regulations? Is that a gain too?

...Ofc - you could see them as losses too - but not everyone will.

Remember - I ain't a brexiteer. But I ain't hard remain either.

I'm out of a job shortly because of IR35 legislation brought in by labour (fine, I'm perfectly legally able to defend my position) and abused by Tories (they've functionally removed my ability to do that, without changing any laws).

So Brexit, even if it costs me a grand a year and/or my job (I've been interviewing my replacements this week - in Poland) is lower down on my personal list of priorities.

Labour could use a brexit-freeing from EU law to protect British jobs, btw - but then, the race to the bottom will be done by the tories - who are going to win - because Britain is going to vote for them.

Really - all you remainers need to stop crying about the practically inevitable now - and start voting for the party which will stop that race to the bottom you're all scared of.

But you're middle class, no? (At least in terms of earnings) - and labour will hit you in the pocket, so...


Honesty and pragmatism make things quite clear, don't they.

 

[DaGaffer]

No longer having to work under the EU ruleset when it comes to stuff like state aid, control of borders, making own laws, freedom from ECJ etc.

Ofc - you could see them as losses too - but not everyone will.

We could do loads of stuff on state aid within the EU rules, we’ve chosen not to. I see no meaningful benefit.

We’re “controlling our borders” so well that immigration is still rising despite EU migration going net negative. So that went well, as predicted.

The making our own laws thing is bullshit and provably so; and even if it wasn’t; look at the clowns we have running the show now, on both sides of the House. You want to give these tools more power?

lastly I find it amusing that Brexiteer ire has been focused against our own courts for the last three years; no ECJ required. Maybe Brexiteers just don’t like laws?

I know you’re just playing devil’s advocate, but fuck me, the non-financial “benefits” of Brexit are just as ludicrous as the economic arguments. Let’s be honest here, it’s all about the foreigners isn’t it?

 

[Scouse]

Let’s be honest here, it’s all about the foreigners isn’t it?

Nah. The foreigners are just being used as a tool to lever dumb people.

What it's *really* about is a global economic system that isn't delivering as it should (on pretty much any level). If joe racist was sitting pretty (or at least, sitting comfortably in a job he didn't detest with a future he could look forward to) then no amount of foreigners would make him vote for Brexit.

Brexit is just a symptom of this fundamental problem. It's manifesting itself all over the world in different ways. Brexit is our way.

Nowt is going to change.


Anyway - is everyone going to vote Labour to stop this race to the bottom? It'll come at personal cost, sure, but standards and rights should be sort-of maintained (well, apart from further erosion of civil liberties and freedom of speech - which is something both sides of the house have been cracking on with with gay abandon for as long as I can remember).

 

[caLLous]

Nowt is going to change.

More's going to change (and not in a good way) post-Brexit than if we stay in the EU.

 

[Scouse]

More's going to change (and not in a good way) post-Brexit than if we stay in the EU.

We ain't staying tho. We're going.

So the question is: is the UK going to choose to vote Labour in an effort to avoid the race to the bottom, preserve the NHS etc etc or are they going to vote tory?

I think we know the answer...

 

[dysfunction]

Since we're racing to the bottom anyway voting Labour won't make much difference so mine is going Lib Dem.

 

[DaGaffer]

We ain't staying tho. We're going.

So the question is: is the UK going to choose to vote Labour in an effort to avoid the race to the bottom, preserve the NHS etc etc or are they going to vote tory?

I think we know the answer...

Labour won’t able to stop anything because the economy will be trashed and they’ll have no money, and even if by some miracle the economy picks up, Labour’s numbers still don’t stack up. The very globalism you decry sees to that.

This is the great irony of Brexit, with a couple of minor exceptions, the only economy on Earth that’s even attempting to protect workers is...the EU. They may not be doing a brilliant job, but it’s a fuckton better than the US or, God forbid, China. Post-Brexit Labour will be able to do no better than the EU and the Pist-Brexit Tories will be emphatically worse.

 

[Scouse]

I agree - but what you're saying there is that we're fucked either way.

Brexit is a result of people throwing their toys out of the pram and screaming "NEXT!". If they don't get a better next then it's the very steep slippery slope to riots and social unrest - on an increasingly global scale.

Personally - I think if the whole world sees Blighty kicking off then they may very well look at the economic model the west is using and go "well fuck that" - because obeying these man-made rules is a choice, not an inevitability.

Brexit is the start of something, not the end. If the "elites" don't see reform of the system so it's not wholly in their favour as an option then global capitalism will descend exactly where Karl Marx said it would - into outright facism.

To be fair - It's kinda where we're headed. It just will be a "socially equal" facism. Everyone who's poor will get fucked over by the state - regardless of their colour, creed, disability or religious status, whilst the super-rich will sit in their gated areas laughing all the way to the banks they own.

 

[caLLous]

 

[caLLous]

Boris Johnson accidentally made an incredibly compelling argument against his own Brexit deal

 

[caLLous]

 

[Job]

We're only partly leaving a temporary, well meaning but ultimately destructive, out of control trade bloc.

You'd think we were renacting serfism.

 

[caLLous]

Tesla Gigafactory Europe to be built in Germany, not UK, as Elon Musk blames Brexit uncertainty

 

[Job]

Well done remainers.

 

[Gwadien]

Best Job response ever.

Genuinely reminds me of 'we lost ww1 because of the Jews.'

 

[Job]

He cited brexit uncertainty...
If we'd left on the day of the vote, we would have a thriving economy the envy of Europe by now...well technically we all ready do... and could have offered Tesla a sweet deal.

But nope the remainers are determined to keep us in a ditch for as long as possible.

 

[caLLous]

If you'd read the article you'd know he didn't say "Brexit uncertainty", he just said Brexit. He doesn't want to open up shop in the UK, not because of uncertainty around Brexit but because Brexit is even happening.

If we'd left on the day of the vote

What is this revisionist bollocks? Nobody ever even mentioned leaving "on the day of the vote", let alone planned for it. It would've been (and still would be) absolute chaos.

Also, the "thriving economy" which only just avoided recession after its weakest growth in a decade?

 

[Scouse]

They've paraphrased him:
“Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK,”

I'd be interested to know if Brexit was a direct cause - because as @Job points out - once we're free of EU rules we can certainly race-to-the-bottom on tax (which is what we'll have to do to retain inward investment).

Of course, the EU could then put up loads of barriers for trade with them to effectively tax these foreign firms when they want to sell their products in Europe.

So, yeah, at the moment investment decisions cannot be made because of brexit uncertainty. However, Brexit itself is just as likely to be a barrier for foreign companies wanting to site factories in the UK if they want to sell into the European market.


But as for @Job's "left the day of the vote" bollocks - what a dumb cunt eh?

 

[Wij]

Under a Boris deal there will definitely be regulatory and customs checks in and out of the UK with the EU and the US so Tesla isn't likely to relish that.

And if we race to the bottom the EU will impose compensatory tariffs so there's not much chance of a gain.

Brexit uncertainty is bad for them but Brexit, if done, would still make the UK an unattractive location for Tesla.

 

[caLLous]

It could be actually about "uncertainty" but I read it as Musk saying he didn't want to set up just outside the common market he wants to produce for and suffer all the regulatory bollocks that comes with that. Therefore Brexit on its own made him locate elsewhere.

 

[Wij]

It could be actually about "uncertainty" but I read it as Musk saying he didn't want to set up just outside the common market he wants to produce for and suffer all the regulatory bollocks that comes with that. Therefore Brexit on its own made him locate elsewhere.

Simple maths:

Set up in Germany = unfettered access to all 27 EU nations.
Set up in GB = unfettered access to GB (not even the whole UK as NI has different rules)

 

[Wij]

Simple maths:

Set up in Germany = unfettered access to all 27 EU nations.
Set up in GB = unfettered access to GB (not even the whole UK as NI has different rules)

And before anyone says they could set up in NI you've got the unending possibility that Stormont might sit again one day and throw the whole thing up in the air again. Who the fuck would invest there?

It's almost like the whole thing is moronic.

 

[DaGaffer]

They've paraphrased him:
“Brexit [uncertainty] made it too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK,”

I'd be interested to know if Brexit was a direct cause - because as @Job points out - once we're free of EU rules we can certainly race-to-the-bottom on tax (which is what we'll have to do to retain inward investment).

Of course, the EU could then put up loads of barriers for trade with them to effectively tax these foreign firms when they want to sell their products in Europe.

So, yeah, at the moment investment decisions cannot be made because of brexit uncertainty. However, Brexit itself is just as likely to be a barrier for foreign companies wanting to site factories in the UK if they want to sell into the European market.


But as for @Job's "left the day of the vote" bollocks - what a dumb cunt eh?

Of course it was a direct cause. It probably wasn’t the only cause, but definitely a giant “why take a chance?” in the business case.

‘But even if we’d “left on the day of the vote” (FFS) I doubt the UK would have been in the race; it makes more sense for Tesla to be near German supply chains (batteries are heavy and shipping costs high) as the UK is exiting the mass manufacturing industry anyway (let’s call it “The Dominic Cummings Effect”.)

 

[Job]

Well tbh..with Germany dropping into recession and having to pay more to run the EU, they need it a lot more than us.

 

[Yoni]

Well tbh..with Germany dropping into recession and having to pay more to run the EU, they need it a lot more than us.

The UK are currently dodging a recession- and I don’t think they will dodge it for much longer.... so stop gloating