Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[DaGaffer]

The Brexiteers are going to vote Tory, and the Remainers will vote else where (unless they're rich remainers ofc).

So what's the difference?

If it's an election rather than a referendum that's not true. There are plenty of people who won't vote for Corbyn under any circumstances. It's a sad state of affairs, but Boris will batter him in an election

 

[Yoni]

This is correct, however I may have been persuaded by Keir Starmer (who I believe is not considered left enough)....

 

[Wij]

You just want to remain, and don't give a fuck about brexiters.

I get it. But that's the reality IMO.

A referendum would be portrayed that way but it's not true.

A narrow majority voted to leave based on leave campaigns that promised stuff that is nothing like what this deal is. Who promised that there'd have to be export paperwork between different parts of the UK? Fucking no one. It was unthinkable in 2016. It's perfectly reasonable now that we know what the deal actually is to check if that 52% majority still exists or whether we should just stop the whole fucking mess.

 

[Scouse]

A referendum would be portrayed that way but it's not true.

Doesn't matter if it's true or not @Wij - there's a large proportion of the country that would still beleve that - and that's not an idea that's OK for large swathes of UK society to carry.

Politics is sometimes about what's practical, not necessarily what's 100% the right thing. They have to lead, and the country has to follow - but following is something people choose to do. If you can't get half the country to buy into something......

:shrug:

 

[Wij]

Doesn't matter if it's true or not @Wij - there's a large proportion of the country that would still beleve that - and that's not an idea that's OK for large swathes of UK society to carry.

Politics is sometimes about what's practical, not necessarily what's 100% the right thing. They have to lead, and the country has to follow - but following is something people choose to do. If you can't get half the country to buy into something......

:shrug:

I didn't suggest that it being true would make people believe it. In order for people to believe it they need to start seeing that narrative from the leaders of 'their side' and that will never happen because they also just want to 'win'.

 

[Scouse]

In order for people to believe it they need to start seeing that narrative from the leaders of 'their side' and that will never happen because they also just want to 'win'.

So brexit is all but a dead-cert then. Right?

Parliament doesn't need extra time to review the deal - the only thing that's substantively changed is the northern ireland stuff. The delays are down to remainers not accepting that it is to all intents and purposes done. They've lost.

Get it fucking done already parliament. Given that all the other options are damaging then just fucking accept the bloody deal and we can move on.

You can then spend the next 30 years just like the brexiteers did and campaign for our re-entry - and whilst you're on about it campaign for reform of the EU to make it more desireable to enter (because if the EU had pressed on with democratic and economic reform, rather than faux-democracy technocratic rule (which we still stuffer from)) then maybe we wouldn't have voted to leave.

But "we" did. On false pretences? Whatever. It's done now. Lets move on ffs.

 

[Wij]

So brexit is all but a dead-cert then. Right?

Doesn't follow. Nothing is certain.

Also even if it did why would you just accept Johnson's shitty deal rather than pushing for something better? Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

 

[dysfunction]

So brexit is all but a dead-cert then. Right?

Parliament doesn't need extra time to review the deal - the only thing that's substantively changed is the northern ireland stuff. The delays are down to remainers not accepting that it is to all intents and purposes done. They've lost.

Get it fucking done already parliament. Given that all the other options are damaging then just fucking accept the bloody deal and we can move on.

You can then spend the next 30 years just like the brexiteers did and campaign for our re-entry - and whilst you're on about it campaign for reform of the EU to make it more desireable to enter (because if the EU had pressed on with democratic and economic reform, rather than faux-democracy technocratic rule (which we still stuffer from)) then maybe we wouldn't have voted to leave.

But "we" did. On false pretences? Whatever. It's done now. Lets move on ffs.

So you are quite happy for Boris to just steam roll over everything without any argument? Interesting....

 

[Wij]

So you are quite happy for Boris to just steam roll over everything without any argument? Interesting....

Car insurance is mandatory, therefore I'll just accept my renewal quote like a mug.

 

[Scouse]

Doesn't follow. Nothing is certain.

Also even if it did why would you just accept Johnson's shitty deal rather than pushing for something better? Your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

You guys yourselves have said "we're not going to get a better deal from the EU" because "the EU can't give it" < direct question - do you stand by this?

If you do, the only other viable outcome is remain - which isn't tenable.

 

[Gwadien]

You guys yourselves have said "we're not going to get a better deal from the EU" because "the EU can't give it" < direct question - do you stand by this?

If you do, the only other viable outcome is remain - which isn't tenable.

Yes, but you said that we'd get a better deal because Boris is PM and he's team Leave.

That hasn't been the case.

Because he wants a no deal.

Which is against the interests of the nation, and I'm sure against the interests of the vast majority of the people in the country.

The idea that everyone is bored of Brexit so we should leave whatever the price is somewhat ridiculous.

 

[Wij]

You guys yourselves have said "we're not going to get a better deal from the EU" because "the EU can't give it" < direct question - do you stand by this?

If you do, the only other viable outcome is remain - which isn't tenable.

No, no and no.

It's not the EU's side of the deal we are objecting to mostly. There's all kinds that are still possible to have been got from the EU that were excluded by the choices of the Conservative party not by the EU. May's red-lines. ERG red-lines. Race-to-the-bottom on rights.

It's not the only other option.

It is not palatable for many reasons but Leave won't be either. It will cause at least as much discord in society if it happens.

Again, conclusions which weren't warranted.

 

[dysfunction]

You guys yourselves have said "we're not going to get a better deal from the EU" because "the EU can't give it" < direct question - do you stand by this?

If you do, the only other viable outcome is remain - which isn't tenable.

no I don't think I said that.
You can get a better deal but Leavers won't like it.

Also you didn't answer the question...

 

[Scouse]

You can get a better deal but Leavers won't like it

So it's not tenable.

I get it from *your* point of view. But you have to satisfy (or rather dissatisfy) both parties.

When even Ken Clarke stands up during PMQs and says "well done Boris, you've managed to get parliament to vote for Brexit" the the writing is on the wall tbh.

It's not the only other option.

Agree with you but: How many years do you want to spend exploring other options?

(Or really: delay until desired outcome (remain) occurs.)


And Dys:

So you are quite happy for Boris to just steam roll over everything without any argument? Interesting....

No - as I already pointed out - MPs have seen the deal, it's the same deal May negotiated with northern ireland changes. So argument has already been had.

 

[dysfunction]

So it's not tenable.

I get it from *your* point of view. But you have to satisfy (or rather dissatisfy) both parties.

That's not entirely correct as there has been no stipulation as to how "The People" wanted to leave the EU. Just that they wanted to leave.
But the government has decided to make it quite a "hard" Brexit (in more ways than one) rather than exiting with a good deal.

 

[Scouse]

That's not entirely correct as there has been no stipulation as to how "The People" wanted to leave the EU. Just that they wanted to leave.
But the government has decided to make it quite a "hard" Brexit (in more ways than one) rather than exiting with a good deal.

Yes. I agree.

But I think you have to accept that we're now probably at "tough titties".

 

[dysfunction]

Well

Yes. I agree.

But I think you have to accept that we're now probably at "tough titties".

Perhaps. That all depends on what happens next. But it's certainly going that way.

 

[Wij]

It will be tough titties for many leavers too including Farage and the DUP as they don't like the deal. Kind of destroys the whole 'for the 52%' argument.

 

[Scouse]

It will be tough titties for many leavers too including Farage and the DUP as they don't like the deal. Kind of destroys the whole 'for the 52%' argument.

Nature of "compromise" - nobody gets to like it, everybody has to live with it.

 

[Wij]

Nature of "compromise" - nobody gets to like it, everybody has to live with it.

Fewer people like the deal than liked the alternative. Yeh do it.

That won't cause any resentment. Totes democratic.

There's a reason they don't do referendums this way in Switzerland.

 

[Yoni]

I am also of the opinion (currently as I am flip flopping on this topic atm) that there should not be another referendum- let’s be honest generally Joe Public has been terribly gullible on both sides of the argument and I am not sure politicians will behave differently if it happens again....

Additionally if there is now a general election frog faced farage may pick up votes as he and his cronies do not like this deal...

If everyone thinks parliament is bad at the moment it will be a complete shit shower if even one seat is won by that group of neanderthals....

 

[Scouse]

Fewer people like the deal than liked the alternative. Yeh do it.

The alternative being remain, ofc.

That won't cause any resentment. Totes democratic.

Remainers are generally a pragmatic bunch. They know there's been a leave vote. There's disagreement on the nature of leave - but vote there was. So yeah, there'll be resentment (on all sides) but not as horrendous as if we don't actually leave...

There's a reason they don't do referendums this way in Switzerland.

You won't get any argument out of me on this. But the fact is we did, and we've had a couple of years of utterly focussed on brexit shite, including another GE on the back of it.

Barring shenanegans - the deal on the table is what we're going to get.



Edit: And I might say - if people wanted a different deal (and could accept that we *have* to leave - because the referendum made it so politically) then they should have backed Labour (despite hating Corbyn) - as Labour would have us bent over an EU barrel - much more closely tied to the EU than the Tories.

But remainers will vote Lib Dem in total-refusal-to-be-pragmatic eh?

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1187007504263405573

 

[Wij]

The alternative being remain, ofc.


Remainers are generally a pragmatic bunch. They know there's been a leave vote. There's disagreement on the nature of leave - but vote there was. So yeah, there'll be resentment (on all sides) but not as horrendous as if we don't actually leave...

I don’t actually agree at all. If the deal was put to the people in a referendum and voted down then there would be some chuntering but the whole will of the people thing would be toned down.

If we leave with a shit deal then half the country will be in a rage and the other half will come to a rage when they realise that Brexit is nothing like they expected and will still dominate all British life for the next decade.

Both will cause problems but I think one will be worse than the other.

 

[Wij]

I don’t actually agree at all. If the deal was put to the people in a referendum and voted down then there would be some chuntering but the whole will of the people thing would be toned down.

If we leave with a shit deal then half the country will be in a rage and the other half will come to a rage when they realise that Brexit is nothing like they expected and will still dominate all British life for the next decade.

Both will cause problems but I think one will be worse than the other.

Disagree if you want but I give Ireland as an example. Second referendum held after a renegotiation. Some people pissed off but overall the country is OK about it.

Gaff?

 

[DaGaffer]

Disagree if you want but I give Ireland as an example. Second referendum held after a renegotiation. Some people pissed off but overall the country is OK about it.

Gaff?

Ireland does referenda properly and frequently and makes yes/no questions unambiguous. Its instructive that the British and Eurosceptic attitude to the Irish Lisbon Treaty referendum was "oh the EU just made them vote again until they said yes", which isn't what happened at all. They changed the text of the treaty to fix the Irish objection, and then it was voted on again (and if they'd said no again, they'd have worked on the Treaty again). The Daily Mail usually forgets that bit.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with multiple referendums based on new or changed information.

 

[Scouse]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with multiple referendums based on new or changed information.

This is also true. But we ain't getting one.

 

[dysfunction]

If the Lib Dems win the election ( ) we will do.

 

[Gwadien]

If there's ever an opportunity for the Lib Dems to replace Labour as the second party, it's now tbh.

 

[Scouse]

The delusion is running hard amongst remainers