Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Wij]

We have to bear in mind as well that the WA wasn't Brussels' first suggestion - we were offered a fairly comprehensive FTA similar to that signed by Canada over a year ago, but that didn't fit with May's red lines so we ended up with the Colonisation Agreement that Parliament voted down 3 times.

EU offers only free trade deal to post-Brexit UK

No mention of Northern Ireland there. The article states that it would lead to hard borders. From the same author:

Brexit deal in jeopardy as May refuses EU's Irish option

The offer was not for all of UK.

Was/Is Boris more lax on the 'no border in Irish Sea' redline then?

 

[Wij]

Sorry - disagree - your and Gaffs assertions make sense if you completely 100% know there's no effort going into a deal.

But you don't know that. It may be likely, but you don't know for certain.

It makes no sense whatsoever for the EU to say they've had no workable proposals if they have had. It can be disproven. Even if I grant you that we might not want to do that now, which still makes no sense. Even in that case it could be disproven later. And for what benefit? Why would that be more in their interest than actually pointing out flaws in the UK proposals? Your plotline makes about as much sense as The Phantom Menace.

 

[Bodhi]

No mention of Northern Ireland there. The article states that it would lead to hard borders. From the same author:

Brexit deal in jeopardy as May refuses EU's Irish option

The offer was not for all of UK.

Was/Is Boris more lax on the 'no border in Irish Sea' redline then?

OK, so it would have left one issue to fix. Given I very much doubt Boris would have fucked up GE 2017 quite so badly so he had to rely on the DUP for support, there would have been a bit more movement on that.

Plus, if it was arranged properly, it could be a massive opportunity for Norn Irn. Could be a great location for companies wanting to access both EU and UK markets, and provide jobs for the locals that don't involve working for the public sector.

 

[Job]

The previous English court declaration

On Wednesday, the judges gave the full reasons for that decision in a 24-page judgment, which concluded with sentence: “In our view, the decision of the prime minister to advise Her Majesty the Queen to prorogue parliament is not justiciable in Her Majesty’s courts.”

The judges said: “The refusal of the courts to review political questions is well established … The prime minister’s decision that parliament should be prorogued at the time and for the duration chosen and the advice given to Her Majesty to do so in the present case were political. They were inherently political in nature and there are no legal standards against which to judge their legitimacy.”

There was also a practical difficulty for the courts to determine when to intervene, the judges noted. “All of these arguments face the insuperable difficulty that it is impossible for the court to make a legal assessment of whether the duration of the prorogation was excessive by reference to any measure. There is no legal measure of the length of time between parliamentary sessions,” they said.

Lord Pannick QC, who represented Gina Miller, had tried to overcome those problems by ”advancing a novel and sophisticated argument resting on parliamentary sovereignty”, they acknowledged.

But, they continued: “The expanded concept has been fashioned to invite the judicial arm of the state to exercise hitherto unidentified power over the executive branch of the state in its dealings with parliament.

“The constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom have evolved to achieve a balance between the three branches of the state; and the relationship between the executive and parliament is governed in part by statute and in part by convention … This is territory into which the courts should be slow indeed to intrude by recognising an expanded concept of parliamentary sovereignty.”

 

[Wij]

OK, so it would have left one issue to fix. Given I very much doubt Boris would have fucked up GE 2017 quite so badly so he had to rely on the DUP for support, there would have been a bit more movement on that.

Plus, if it was arranged properly, it could be a massive opportunity for Norn Irn. Could be a great location for companies wanting to access both EU and UK markets, and provide jobs for the locals that don't involve working for the public sector.

Even without having to lean on the DUP I doubt that a deal which separated NI from GB in this manner would have passed through the commons. Certainly the ERG would have rejected it as they do pretty much any deal anyway.

I can't see Boris' 'special charms' making much difference here over May's.

"Surely with a bit of gumption you paddies and you bowler-hat-nonces can work something out yes?"

Magic.

 

[Bodhi]

Even without having to lean on the DUP I doubt that a deal which separated NI from GB in this manner would have passed through the commons. Certainly the ERG would have rejected it as they do pretty much any deal anyway.

I can't see Boris' 'special charms' making much difference here over May's.

"Surely with a bit of gumption you paddies and you bowler-hat-nonces can work something out yes?"

Magic.

Well, considering the only way forwards that Parliament actually voted in favour of was May WA's without the backstop, I can't say I agree with your assessment.

 

[Wij]

Well, considering the only way forwards that Parliament actually voted in favour of was May WA's without the backstop, I can't say I agree with your assessment.

The house agrees to ask for something it is unlikely to get but no harm in asking.

 

[Scouse]

@Job - are you going to post a massive grovelling apology to the courts and lawyers now?

I thought they were all piece of shit traitors, amongst the first to be 'strung up'?

 

[Bodhi]

@Job - are you going to post a massive grovelling apology to the courts and lawyers now?

I thought they were all piece of shit traitors, amongst the first to be 'strung up'?

From the looks of the reports from today's proceedings, they should be strung up for incompetence, inability to use a printer / USB Key properly and a shocking lack of self-awareness getting John Major to share a stand with them.

 

[Wij]

Those protestors in Luxembourg (thread)


View: https://twitter.com/mediawhizz/status/1173648159479914496

 

[Wij]

EU given Brexit draft with backstop scrubbed out, UK sources admit

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/hilarybennmp/status/1173613082205130754

 

[Job]

@Job - are you going to post a massive grovelling apology to the courts and lawyers now?

I thought they were all piece of shit traitors, amongst the first to be 'strung up'?

Er...the English court allready laid out the facts...if they had gone against that it would have been an outrage.

 

[Scouse]

Er...the English court allready laid out the facts...if they had gone against that it would have been an outrage.

Not good enough.

You've been raging against lawyers and judges for years. You owe them an apology.

Or do you only support them when they make decisions you agree with?

 

[Gwadien]

Not good enough.

You've been raging against lawyers and judges for years. You owe them an apology.

Or do you only support them when they make decisions you agree with?

lol.

Job has made it very clear that he wants everything in his world image whatever the price.

That's why it's funny when he whinges about freedoms, because he doesn't support them at all really.

 

[Wij]

Lying again is he?

Brexit talks 'should not be a pretence' - Barnier

 

[Scouse]

Lying again is he?

Brexit talks 'should not be a pretence' - Barnier

"We could do this"
"no"
"We could do this"
"no"
"How about this"
"no"
"look - the backstop isn't going to be a thing, we're never going to accept it, there's got to be movement on your side or we definitely leave with no deal"
"don't care - you're getting it from all sides and we want the backstop"
"How about this"
"no, we want the backstop, we don't really want you to leave tbpfh, it's inconvenient and you know damn well it's probably going to be worse for the people of your country"
"yes, we know all that, but we've chosen a course, and we can't back down without trashing the party - and as you know: power first, governing in the people's interest second"
"Yes, we're no different, power first, government second - at least there's something we agree on"
"Agreed - so you can see - we can't have the backstop"
"Tough titties - removing it weakens our grip"
"I know, but having it weakens ours, makes us your bitch"
"We know"
"So how about this?"
"No"
"Just saying "no" to everything isn't negotiating"
"True, but we've got the deal we want, you can't have what you want - so you potentially crash out, we get to blame you and the rest of the EU looks at your pathetic-ness and the economic result of you leaving, as you also drive to the bottom in terms of environment, workers rights and health - and the other countries in the EU think 'jeez, better stay in'"
"True, but you'll hurt too..."
"Yep, but we don't care - look at what we did to the greek people, despite it not being their actual fault. We clearly don't give a fuck"

Johnson: "We're trying to get a deal" (knows he probably won't)
EU (pick one): "They're not even trying to come up with proposals" (knows we can't because they're not going to budge)

 

[Wij]

"We could do this"
"no"
"We could do this"
"no"
"How about this"
"no"
"look - the backstop isn't going to be a thing, we're never going to accept it, there's got to be movement on your side or we definitely leave with no deal"
"don't care - you're getting it from all sides and we want the backstop"
"How about this"
"no, we want the backstop, we don't really want you to leave tbpfh, it's inconvenient and you know damn well it's probably going to be worse for the people of your country"
"yes, we know all that, but we've chosen a course, and we can't back down without trashing the party - and as you know: power first, governing in the people's interest second"
"Yes, we're no different, power first, government second - at least there's something we agree on"
"Agreed - so you can see - we can't have the backstop"
"Tough titties - removing it weakens our grip"
"I know, but having it weakens ours, makes us your bitch"
"We know"
"So how about this?"
"No"
"Just saying "no" to everything isn't negotiating"
"True, but we've got the deal we want, you can't have what you want - so you potentially crash out, we get to blame you and the rest of the EU looks at your pathetic-ness and the economic result of you leaving, as you also drive to the bottom in terms of environment, workers rights and health - and the other countries in the EU think 'jeez, better stay in'"
"True, but you'll hurt too..."
"Yep, but we don't care - look at what we did to the greek people, despite it not being their actual fault. We clearly don't give a fuck"

Johnson: "We're trying to get a deal" (knows he probably won't)
EU (pick one): "They're not even trying to come up with proposals" (knows we can't because they're not going to budge)

They've said they'll consider any proposal which achieves the same goals as the backstop and are not wedded to the backstop itself but anything which achieves the same goals is going to be pretty similar. No hard border requires regulatory and tariff alignment between NI and RoI. Otherwise no deal. This has not changed.

Johnson keeps claiming that he has solutions which achieve the same goals but don't involve alignment. The EU asks 'OK, great, show us then' and Johnson, channeling Joseph Smith or the kid at school who claims to have superpowers, says he can't yet but it's still totally true.

 

[Gwadien]

look at what we did to the greek people, despite it not being their actual fault.

lmao.

You really are starting to sound like a Brexiteer.

I still don't understand why people believe the EU is a wishy washy organisation that can easily be dealt with.

Obviously they're going to do everything they can do to protect the EU as an organisation.

Why would they just let nations freely leave but pick and chose what parts of the EU that they do want?

 

[Scouse]

You really are starting to sound like a Brexiteer.

Why? Because I can see both sides of the argument? - the idiot brexiteer and willing-to-suck-dick remainer side?

I still don't understand why people believe the EU is a wishy washy organisation that can easily be dealt with.

Don't think they are. Does what I wrote above make you think that they're in any way playing anything other than hard-ball?

1) Why shouldn't they? And, importantly - given we've voted to leave: 2) why should we not?

 

[Scouse]

They've said they'll consider any proposal which achieves the same goals as the backstop and are not wedded to the backstop itself but anything which achieves the same goals is going to be pretty similar. No hard border requires regulatory and tariff alignment between NI and RoI. Otherwise no deal

And if that's actually the case - rather than a pragmatic fudge - then we've two choices:

1) Remain
2) No Deal

or, because: politics

3) Fudge. Pragmatic fudge. Because 1) is totally out of the question (at the moment). 2) is undesirable for both sides. So 3) is the option because politics is about what you can do, not what you should do or (as shown by judges saying "this is a political decision, not a legal decision") what's legal to do.

Politics > Law. As it must be. In a massive grey-area fudge, all the while presenting countries as "law abiding".


As an aside: If we can't leave because of the hard border issue then the argument by people over UK sovereignty (and parliamentary sovereignty) has kinda been won by the brexiteers.

 

[Job]

Not good enough.

You've been raging against lawyers and judges for years. You owe them an apology.

Or do you only support them when they make decisions you agree with?

You want me to apologise because someone sid the right thing?....hmmmm.
Lets see how the supreme court plays out.
They are well up for inventive and creative arguments...as is all law.
I think Ginas team are now going for..its not what he says but what we think he thinks, if they agree with that one we night as well shut every court in the country, game over.

 

[Gwadien]

As an aside: If we can't leave because of the hard border issue then the argument by people over UK sovereignty (and parliamentary sovereignty) has kinda been won by the brexiteers.

This is the problem.

Brexiteers believe we can go back to the early 20th century and dictate to the rest of the world what we want to do, therefore it must be done.

Reality is that the world today is all about deals and negotiations with other countries, what they say is quite important now.

 

[Job]

No.they..dont.

Its a tiresome losers trick to endlessly repeat stereotypical bullshit.
We can trade based on our standing in the world...our previously non corrupt government, our stability, demographics and our turnover.

We have everything going for us and unfortunately an immense dead weight of headless chickens.
Brexiting is not idiotic, its a fantastic leap of democracy and the rejection of federalism and globalism.
The EU wants power..nothing else, it will destroy nation states and undermine the judiciary and parliaments of its members and risk war to get it, all ready it has lost its most powerful country to this greed which will do nothing but put itself in a position of conflict with the new world powers.

 

[Wij]

As an aside: If we can't leave because of the hard border issue then the argument by people over UK sovereignty (and parliamentary sovereignty) has kinda been won by the brexiteers.

No because that isn't the point. The Good Friday Agreement has its own mandate from a referendum passed by a bigger majority where every voter was given THE EXACT TEXT of what they were voting for.

It's a failure of the Brexit referendum and the twonks who ran both sides of it that this was completely glossed over.

You can Brexit AND keep the GFA only if you cede sovereignty. That's the choice but it was never presented to the people that way.

You can Brexit and keep sovereignty only if you ditch the GFA and therefore get fuck all deals from the EU and the US.

Hard choices have to get made. We had a referendum where that was never acknowledged. Getting pissy about it now is childish. Blaming it all on the EU and bureaucracy and saying it proves the Brexiteers right is missing the point to a ridiculous degree.

We had a referendum where the hard choices were ignored. Now that they are finally apparent we need to pick one of the actual options instead of whining again for the pretend-option.

 

[Scouse]

Understand it perfectly @Wij. It's not like I don't.

But we'll fudge it. And the EU will go along with that. Or we'll ditch NI, in a "honestly, we haven't ditched you" way...

 

[Wij]

Understand it perfectly @Wij. It's not like I don't.

But we'll fudge it. And the EU will go along with that. Or we'll ditch NI, in a "honestly, we haven't ditched you" way...

Describe the fudge.

 

[Bodhi]

No because that isn't the point. The Good Friday Agreement has its own mandate from a referendum passed by a bigger majority where every voter was given THE EXACT TEXT of what they were voting for.

It's a failure of the Brexit referendum and the twonks who ran both sides of it that this was completely glossed over.

You can Brexit AND keep the GFA only if you cede sovereignty. That's the choice but it was never presented to the people that way.

You can Brexit and keep sovereignty only if you ditch the GFA and therefore get fuck all deals from the EU and the US.

Hard choices have to get made. We had a referendum where that was never acknowledged. Getting pissy about it now is childish. Blaming it all on the EU and bureaucracy and saying it proves the Brexiteers right is missing the point to a ridiculous degree.

We had a referendum where the hard choices were ignored. Now that they are finally apparent we need to pick one of the actual options instead of whining again for the pretend-option.

Even though the Supreme Court in Norn Irn decreed last week that even no Deal wouldn't violate the GFA?

Northern Irish court dismisses case against no-deal Brexit

So the UK aren't going to be putting border posts up any time soon, the Irish Government won't be putting any up any time soon - so where is this friction on the border that is going to give some braindead morons in the North an excuse to get the Semtex out again coming from?

 

[Gwadien]

Even though the Supreme Court in Norn Irn decreed last week that even no Deal wouldn't violate the GFA?

Northern Irish court dismisses case against no-deal Brexit

So the UK aren't going to be putting border posts up any time soon, the Irish Government won't be putting any up any time soon - so where is this friction on the border that is going to give some braindead morons in the North an excuse to get the Semtex out again coming from?

I mean, a Tory Government propped up by the DUP, not really bothered by the principle of a hard border.

You can see why it'd make great propaganda for the Propa IRA.

 

[Job]

They are all ready planting bombs, have been for years.
There just seems to be some gentlemens agreement for the press to play it down.

Timeline of Irish dissident activity