Is It Leagal To use a crafting macro as long as you are presant at the computer?

[Meduza]

You choose the service and it comes with terms and conditions. It's essentially a contract. You agree to those conditions in order to be able to access that service. If you don't agree to the conditions then you can't access the service and the client quits. That's why the Ts&Cs pop up when you log in and you get the 'Accept/Don't Accept' choice. It's also why every time a new account logs in from a client or the Ts&Cs change, you have to go through and scroll to the end of them again. We legally have to make you do that to ensure that you have the opportunity to decline the service if you don't like the conditions.

I agree on that. But if a player refuses, Goa needs to refund any pre-paid subscriptions and the price of the game bought, hence it cant be accessed (played) nomore.

Wont happend tho...

Edit: Regarding refund of the purchased game, I'm not sure whether its the shop u bought it at, or Goa, who must refund. Imo it should be the shop hence protecting the consumer against overseas companies in cases where ie Mythic hosts the game and not Goa. (Protecting against the hazzle etc.)

 

[Franya]

Shops can refuse to serve somebody if they like. They're private property and they have every right to refuse to allow entrance or to serve anyone the owner doesn't like.

Maybe in your country. In Germany (following a EU directive) a shopowner gives up part of those houserights. There have been numerous lawsuits here that all showed that if you open a shop with the intent to sell stuff to the public you loose part of those rights.

However we aren't a shop. We sell a service and not a product. You choose the service and it comes with terms and conditions. It's essentially a contract. You agree to those conditions in order to be able to access that service. If you don't agree to the conditions then you can't access the service and the client quits.

First i have bought the game that can only be used with the servers. So that is to be considered too.

That's why the Ts&Cs pop up when you log in and you get the 'Accept/Don't Accept' choice. It's also why every time a new account logs in from a client or the Ts&Cs change, you have to go through and scroll to the end of them again. We legally have to make you do that to ensure that you have the opportunity to decline the service if you don't like the conditions.

And if you change the conditions after i bought the game that change is not part of the contract. So if i deny i have a right of reimbursement and you can'T just simple keep the money i already paid...

 

[NeonBlue]

so basically u see it as ur mission coz u have this business degree...to prove that GOA's legal deptartment who probably have qualified lawyers in every aspect of business,comerical,consumer law and have covered their arse tighter than a ducks...that they are wrong?

good luck

if they havent more fool them

 

[Meduza]

so basically u see it as ur mission coz u have this business degree...to prove that GOA's legal deptartment who probably have qualified lawyers in every aspect of business,comerical,consumer law and have covered their arse tighter than a ducks...that they are wrong?

good luck

if they havent more fool them

no lol, im just speaking my oppinion as most do on forums like this

Freedom of Speach! (Unless, ofc, Goa say we cant cuz otherwise we get banned )

 

[[AB]Shirtan]

What some people are forgetting here is that in EU, your own country's laws rank heigher than that of a foreign country, even in the EU supreme court, which mean that if anyone from denmark take GOA to court whatever they did to cover their arses in France, might not work in Denmark as their own laws rank higher. Thats part of the constitutional EU laws.
So before you say that GOA may have a legion of lawyers, consider if they are foolproof in evey country playing the game, i would highly doubt it.


/Shirtan

 

[NeonBlue]

well tbh..i couldnt careless...just think its stupid we are even discussing this, or that some ppl find it necessary to do so.

If players cant handle the CoC/Eula MMorpgs put out to protect themselves from players..then the players shouldnt be playing that game

why ppl find the need to tear em apart or find flaws in em..is beyond me

but hey ho

on another note...the EU sucks

 

[Tomtefan]

Nope, not a lawyer... If so I wouldnt drive the reck Im driving. I do, however, hold a candidate degree in what may translate as business law, which do, however, give me some insight in the law system Imo ofc...

I bet u haven't discussed this with Goa's legal department. Cuz that is as wrong as it gets. A shopowner did that in my country (Denmark) and was in the danish supreeme(sp?) court ruled against and got a fine. I dont say danish law equals rest of european union, but we have, however, implemented most directives agreed between the European Union.

Once again, this cant have been discussed with Goa's legal department. I take it, it is ur opinion, and not that of Goa ? I surely hope so, cuz to correct u, a service and product is treated the same way legally. And if u (=Goa) think u can ban players from left to right, then ur wrong - legally. Maybe the community itself says "right on, damn cheaters!" (and me too for that matter), but its not legal to deny some from playing ur game and not others on that account they have bought.

To those of u not caring to read this whole thread, Im not the one banned And as said many times be4, nomatter what u (=Goa) do, none of us cares that much to sue(sp?) u.

Are you seriously this stupid/ignorant or is it just a major part of your character..?

You literally sign a contract with GOA every time you even login to one of your account(s) which states that you simply pay them in order to have access to "your" characters while they do in fact own them. (which has been stated xx times in this thread already)

Each player within EU DAoC doesn't in fact own anything except the 'key' to their characters (account/password that is), you dont have any right to the actual data on the server(s) you are playing at, when you pay your subs you are simply renewing your right to access *their* data again.

If you break one of the conditions for being able to access your account (as in failing to comply with the circumstances stated in the CoC/ToS) then you cant really scream "THEY TRICKED ME!!1!!!1!!". You break your part of the agreement, they simply cancel their part of it

So yes, both technically and legally GOA has the right to utterly deny whatever person access to their servers for whatever reason they deem worthy. In this case it was quite a justified reason (The old witch test from the medieval ages springs to mind).

Why should Requiel go speak with his legal department when your arguements have a lower density then vacuum?

Oh BTW: Shopowners are able to restrict access to their shops for any person if they should so desire (however that wouldn't really make good business now would it?). I would be seriously intrested to see a lawsuit on this:

"buhu he wouldn't let me buy a icecream"
"No, really! He was just being ignorant and didn't want to sell me any icecream"
"I hadn't done anything at all, promise!"

I do however see lawsuits when it is based on racistic motivations for the shopkeeper but individuals who get sacked from buying/visiting certain shops is mostly sacked *for a reason*. I am only talking from the experience I had from 4 years in the business though. (This is in Sweden, there might be other national laws in other countries)

PS: Good work Requiel & Co, Now go ban the remaining cheaters and the world might yet become a better place. \o/

 

[Araudry]

Again, even tho Goa Code of Conduct says so, its not legally binding. One can only make these kinds of "agreements" on b2b markets, not b2c. On b2c theres a thing called consumer rights of which no company/customer can agree them out of. Once a consumer have bought a product (i wont say license, cuz "license" is only rly applicable (sp?) on b2b markets), he owns that product and can do whatever we will with it (ofc not copy it and sell illegal copies, or alter the code in anyway, etc.). So whether or not goa want ppl to buy and sell accounts, then cant say that their customers cant.

Then again... I wont, Juj wont, and other gamers wont ever try to build a case against the CoC etc So yes, in real world Goa can do whatevah they want Sad rly, tho...

hmm it seems u scared of getting banned imo
why would they ban someone that doesnt cheat?
ppl using macro and rest are fecking cheaters and deserve a perma ban
and this one make an exemple for everyone..

 

[Meduza]

Are you seriously this stupid/ignorant or is it just a major part of your character..?

You literally sign a contract with GOA every time you even login to one of your account(s) which states that you simply pay them in order to have access to "your" characters while they do in fact own them. (which has been stated xx times in this thread already)

Each player within EU DAoC doesn't in fact own anything except the 'key' to their characters (account/password that is), you dont have any right to the actual data on the server(s) you are playing at, when you pay your subs you are simply renewing your right to access *their* data again.

If you break one of the conditions for being able to access your account (as in failing to comply with the circumstances stated in the CoC/ToS) then you cant really scream "THEY TRICKED ME!!1!!!1!!". You break your part of the agreement, they simply cancel their part of it

So yes, both technically and legally GOA has the right to utterly deny whatever person access to their servers for whatever reason they deem worthy. In this case it was quite a justified reason (The old witch test from the medieval ages springs to mind).

Why should Requiel go speak with his legal department when your arguements have a lower density then vacuum?

Oh BTW: Shopowners are able to restrict access to their shops for any person if they should so desire (however that wouldn't really make good business now would it?). I would be seriously intrested to see a lawsuit on this:

"buhu he wouldn't let me buy a icecream"
"No, really! He was just being ignorant and didn't want to sell me any icecream"
"I hadn't done anything at all, promise!"

I do however see lawsuits when it is based on racistic motivations for the shopkeeper but individuals who get sacked from buying/visiting certain shops is mostly sacked *for a reason*. I am only talking from the experience I had from 4 years in the business though. (This is in Sweden, there might be other national laws in other countries)

PS: Good work Requiel & Co, Now go ban the remaining cheaters and the world might yet become a better place. \o/

omg, what an extreme display of ignorance... on severel levels!

Ohh, well, cba'ed replying when so much u write is wrong. Been answered several times before u got a +1 (cuz that is all ur post is worth).

 

[dapprman]

Shops can refuse to serve somebody if they like. They're private property and they have every right to refuse to allow entrance or to serve anyone the owner doesn't like.

This is getting off topic, but you are very very wrong Requiel. Not only is it EU trading law, but it is also UK trading law (since we are also discussing an English server here).

 

[Tomtefan]

omg, what an extreme display of ignorance... on severel levels!

Ohh, well, cba'ed replying when so much u write is wrong. Been answered several times before u got a +1 (cuz that is all ur post is worth).

heh, excellent way to finish a arguement eh? "omg u r st00pid m8 but I r t00 clevur f0r j00". Oh well, avoid the subject then instead of admitting that you are at fault

This is getting off topic, but you are very very wrong Requiel. Not only is it EU trading law, but it is also UK trading law (since we are also discussing an English server here).

Just because the server is a english one it doesn't mean that they follow UK laws though. The company/firm is based in France hence they are probably following french national laws

 

[Meduza]

heh, excellent way to finish a arguement eh? "omg u r st00pid m8 but I r t00 clevur f0r j00". Oh well, avoid the subject then instead of admitting that you are at fault

I would never say that when the discussion is about RL issues. However, if we discussed how overpwred savages r, then yes, I would probably use those terms.

But Im not wrong.

 

[[AB]Shirtan]

Just because the server is a english one it doesn't mean that they follow UK laws though. The company/firm is based in France hence they are probably following french national laws

As i have stated earlier in this thread, if the company that you buy a service from is based in France, and you live outside that country, the laws that you are to follow are not the french national laws, but your own national laws as they rank heigher in the EU. This is so u do not have to read a bunch of foreign law to use a company from another country.

/Shirtan

 

[Morchaoron]

remember people, theres one universal rule that applies to everything everywhere:

"Everything is allowed as long as the ones who enforce the law have no knowledge of it"

 

[Skeggi]

I'm not sure that you are right there becuase what is written is...

- Article in the EULA:

6. Hacks, Modifications and/or Changes to the Game
You may not use any third party software to modify the Game to change Game play. You may not use intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.

This seems rather strange to me: GOA is the first party, you are the second party, and anyone else can be the third party. Meaning, if you write your software yourself, it's legal!?

 

[elbeek]

OMG, how off topic has this got?

He cheated, he got banned....nuff said.

 

[Laston]

im not sure

lets say


Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeseeeeeeee pieeee!

and let the god damn thread die! :touch:

 

[Driwen]

This seems rather strange to me: GOA is the first party, you are the second party, and anyone else can be the third party. Meaning, if you write your software yourself, it's legal!?

Goa is first party, operating system is probably second and any other program messing with the game is third party. Drivers and such programs most likely fall under the operating system.

 

[dapprman]

:



Just because the server is a english one it doesn't mean that they follow UK laws though. The company/firm is based in France hence they are probably following french national laws

Actually it does because it is a product and service they are actively selling in the UK.

 

[dapprman]

Is it possible to kill this thread off - it would be nice, but it seems to have a life of it's own.

In case we can, here's a summary to try and end it all.

Juj posted that he had been caught being naughty (crafting macro), was guilty, was banned. His view was two fold.

1. To let people know GOA were dealing with cheaters - even if only craft macroers- this was also a warning to others​

2. To see if people though a permanent ban (as opposed to 1 week type of thing) was too extreme​

That was all.

Many people have said yes/no, cheater/not real cheater, etc
The EULA GOA use was then questioned, as were trading laws. Some one with a MBA tried to point out that the EULA was not necessarilyl legal, however no one was likely to stump up hte money required to challenge it in the courts.

Oh, there's also been some fighting, no trolling (I think we're all amazed by this one), and an awful lot of edits.

Now can we end this

 

[Meduza]

Is it possible to kill this thread off - it would be nice, but it seems to have a life of it's own.

In case we can, here's a summary to try and end it all.



Juj posted that he had been caught being naughty (crafting macro), was guilty, was banned. His view was two fold.

1. To let people know GOA were dealing with cheaters - even if only craft macroers- this was also a warning to others​

2. To see if people though a permanent ban (as opposed to 1 week type of thing) was too extreme​

That was all.


Many people have said yes/no, cheater/not real cheater, etc
The EULA GOA use was then questioned, as were trading laws. Some one with a MBA tried to point out that the EULA was not necessarilyl legal, however no one was likely to stump up hte money required to challenge it in the courts.

Oh, there's also been some fighting, no trolling (I think we're all amazed by this one), and an awful lot of edits.

Now can we end this

Damn u for posting that! Now we'r gonna have all kinds of pocket lawyers wanna-bees in here posting all kinds of ignorance! the length of the thread kinda dealt with that issue, but now u ruined that!

 

[NeonBlue]

Damn u for posting that! Now we'r gonna have all kinds of pocket lawyers wanna-bees in here posting all kinds of ignorance!

but you've already done that

 

[Skeggi]

Goa is first party, operating system is probably second and any other program messing with the game is third party. Drivers and such programs most likely fall under the operating system.

Afaik parties have to be persons or companies or a government. In legal terms that is.

Further to give another opinion on this matter: requiel, imo your judgement sucks. I know you, nor anyone else cares about what I think, but I wanted to support Juj anyway here. <DISCLAIMER: I am making this post purely on my own, this is not the opinion of Tiwaz's Emissaries, purely speaking MY mind here, and not saying I accept macro-ing, just saying that permabanning someone for craftmacro-ing, while he is not AFK and EULA reads you should only be near your monitor is unfair. I posted this disclaimer because you can't be too careful apparently these days and I don't want to screw my guild while making a post on FH.>

And indeed, some points have been made about cheat-prevention. If you want to really show you don't tollerate cheating, you must give details on the crime, and announce it publicly in anyway, but no need to get personal ofc. This point is out-dated now because of this thread atm, but for future instances, perhaps GOA shouldn't trust the banned person in question "whineness".

Further, on a side note, in the old days i used DaoX because I have a 2-monitor system, and when clicking on my "non-daoc" monitor (by accident) made my pc crash. Yes, I did use third party software, but purely because Mythic's silly programming made me to.

Back to the point of my original point: is second-party software (still asuming it is the customer) legal then?

/EDIT: Sorry for making this post longer, but I just returned from vacation and I have a /autowhine macro when it comes to guildies getting banned for silly reasons.

 

[Ctuchik]

Damn u for posting that! Now we'r gonna have all kinds of pocket lawyers wanna-bees in here posting all kinds of ignorance! the length of the thread kinda dealt with that issue, but now u ruined that!

still waiting to see that "law" about that online game companys cant ban ppl....... cant find it?? no such law??? damn... :/

 

[NeonBlue]

still waiting to see that "law" about that online game companys cant ban ppl....... cant find it?? no such law??? damn... :/

me thinks ull be waiting a long time mate

 

[Meduza]

still waiting to see that "law" about that online game companys cant ban ppl....... cant find it?? no such law??? damn... :/

lol, ur ignorance never seems to stop surpricing me. There wont ever be a law stating "Online companies cant ban ppl"! Get it?! There is, however!, laws stating that companies cannot sell to certain ppl and not to others! And u should be damn happy about that! Maybe ur just too stupid to see it, but its acutally there TO PROTECT YOU!!! Imagine this: Some rly rly insanely rich dood in ur area suddenly decides "Ctuchik is a fool, I'll tell my shops not to sell to him, his family and all of his friends!", and that rish dood owns every shop in ur area, and the neighboring areas. Do u NOW think that he should be allowed NOT to sell to u ? Guess not! Ohh, and stop saying even further stupid remarks as "I just go elsewhere - He cant own all shops - I get others to buy for me - bla bla bla".

Dont u get it?! Plz tell me that ur not older than 15 and I can make a sound relief knowing that grown ppl dont just accept what companies tell them!

Its there to protect even you!

(sry for any personal attacks, I just get frustrated of some ppls ignorance and stuborness)

Edit: Ohh, and no, I dont got the time to make a link to the specific paragraph. I know its there. I told u. But u wont listen. Not my bad.

 

[Thorwyn]

There´s a difference between selling a product and providing a service. Nobody keeps Jui from buying DaOC if he wants to, regardless whether he´s banned or not. On the other hand, a company who´s providing/selling a service CAN say "no" to certain people. Playing DaOC (after you´ve bought the game and installed it) is nothing more than a service.
Happens all the time in the insurrance market for example. Crash your car and your insurrance has a legal right to stop continuing the service and get out of the contract if they want to. And nothing will stop your rich dude who owns all insurrances in town from doing so.
Same is true for restaurants or similar stuff. Restaurant owners have a right to say "no, I don´t like your face, get out" and decide to not sell a person anything if they want.

 

[Vesania]

lol, ur ignorance never seems to stop surpricing me. There wont ever be a law stating "Online companies cant ban ppl"! Get it?! There is, however!, laws stating that companies cannot sell to certain ppl and not to others! And u should be damn happy about that!

Same is true for restaurants or similar stuff. Restaurant owners have a right to say "no, I don´t like your face, get out" and decide to not sell a person anything if they want.

I believe the problem comes if they state an unlawful reason for denying the service. E.g. related to colour, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. The company would then be discriminating illegally.

Indeed, there is precedent for legal punishment of service providers for denying access to their service on these kind of grounds. A hotelier has even been prosecuted recently in the UK for refusing to allow a gay couple to book a double room in his hotel.

Another problem might arise if they could state no valid reason, however, I don't see the issue with a company drawing up a set of rules which must be complied with by everyone who wishes to avail themselves of the company service, then ejecting those who don't follow them. If you choose to break a rule, you choose to break the contract. Cheating absolutely is a good enough reason to have a service denied you, especially if the service provider can prove that you had ample warning/access to the information which listed the rules for you. That is what the EULA actually does in this case. It slaps you in the face with the rules every time you log in, hence GoA can demonstrate, legally, that they have done everything in their power to ensure that you have read the rules which pertain to your continued access of the game.

Golf clubs can expel and blacklist you for cheating. You can get stripped of your Olympic medal for cheating and excluded from competition in your sport. If you went to your local swimming pool and peed in it, while snogging the football team and/or behaving in a way which interfered with the majority (contrary to the rules most pools display prominently) then you could expect to be ejected. If you smack someone in the face at your local bar, or even attempt to intimidate or behave in an outrageously anti-social manner, you'll probably find yourself being assisted outside by some nice but terrifyingly well-built chaps called bouncers.

Society has these protections so that gimps who think they can buck against the rules are prevented from pursuing courses of action which are contrary to the interests of the majority. By banning cheaters, in line with the clearly stated rules of the EULA which you accept, GoA serve the interests of the majority of their service users, who frankly have a right to enjoy the service they've contracted without it being polluted and spoiled by the puerile posturing of a handful of idiots who want something for nothing.

 

[Juj]

There´s a difference between selling a product and providing a service. Nobody keeps Jui from buying DaOC if he wants to, regardless whether he´s banned or not. On the other hand, a company who´s providing/selling a service CAN say "no" to certain people. Playing DaOC (after you´ve bought the game and installed it) is nothing more than a service.
Happens all the time in the insurrance market for example. Crash your car and your insurrance has a legal right to stop continuing the service and get out of the contract if they want to. And nothing will stop your rich dude who owns all insurrances in town from doing so.
Same is true for restaurants or similar stuff. Restaurant owners have a right to say "no, I don´t like your face, get out" and decide to not sell a person anything if they want.

Your are right about the insurrance company being allowed to discontinue supplying a service to you ... However they are under NO circumstances allowed to take payment for a service and then not supply that service, without refunding you your remaining fees... Which is what GOA are doing.

The whole problem here is that a consumer that buys this game has no way of knowing whats right and wrong... Mythic allow non-afk macroing and GOA dont. The problem that arises here is that any consumer could argue that the rules are not clear enough, which would shoot holes in whatever GOA claim.

However you look at this, giving a permaban to someone for somthing like this, without warning, is just bang out of order, and the openly refusing to repay any remainging fees is both illeagal and extremly bad service. I've said it before and ill say it again.. I dont care about my account anymore. This thread is here to protect the remaining players in the game. I personaly had 3 level 50's and a few mid 30-40's toons on my account. Which is a hell of alot of playing hours invested and lost over such an offence. I will NEVER bring business to a company that treats it's customers in the way GOA have treated me.

It's obvious to read from this thread that nobody really knows what GOA deems as being allowed/dissalowed. All we know is that if you do somthing that GOA disaprove of, you will find out about it after they have banned you and kept your remaining money....
Now thats what I call customer service uke:

 

[Thrinnor]

Can someone post some goat porn so this thread gets locked?