Is It Leagal To use a crafting macro as long as you are presant at the computer?

[Ctuchik]

Juj, u can read the CoC on DAoC-europe homepage. http://camelot-europe.goa.com/en/infos/ccomport.php

but noone reads that first before getting the game anyway.

 

[Thorwyn]

I believe the problem comes if they state an unlawful reason for denying the service. E.g. related to colour, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. The company would then be discriminating illegally.

Happens every day though, starting with people being thrown out of a Casino for not wearing a tie, inappropriate clothes or simply because the guy at the door of the discotheque doesn´t like your nose. In cases of blattant discdrimination like in the case you mentioned it might be possible to do something against it... just like you said then it´s an unlawful reason. But generally, someone who´s offering a service has the choice to withdraw his offer for whatever (lawful) reason. Consumer rights have a limit.

 

[Meduza]

...

First of all, nice post (in total). Agree on almost anything.

I believe the problem comes if they state an unlawful reason for denying the service. E.g. related to colour, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. The company would then be discriminating illegally.

True. But companies can't deny consumers access to the same goods/services as other consumers - nomatter what their "internal" policy says.

Another problem might arise if they could state no valid reason, however, I don't see the issue with a company drawing up a set of rules which must be complied with by everyone who wishes to avail themselves of the company service, then ejecting those who don't follow them. If you choose to break a rule, you choose to break the contract. Cheating absolutely is a good enough reason to have a service denied you, especially if the service provider can prove that you had ample warning/access to the information which listed the rules for you. That is what the EULA actually does in this case. It slaps you in the face with the rules every time you log in, hence GoA can demonstrate, legally, that they have done everything in their power to ensure that you have read the rules which pertain to your continued access of the game..

Agree on the matter that this is the case on b2b markets. Companies can't make rules to consumers disallowing them access to their goods/services if other consumers have access to those goods/services becuz they "fit" into those rules (or comply with them).

Golf clubs can expel and blacklist you for cheating. You can get stripped of your Olympic medal for cheating and excluded from competition in your sport. If you went to your local swimming pool and peed in it, while snogging the football team and/or behaving in a way which interfered with the majority (contrary to the rules most pools display prominently) then you could expect to be ejected. If you smack someone in the face at your local bar, or even attempt to intimidate or behave in an outrageously anti-social manner, you'll probably find yourself being assisted outside by some nice but terrifyingly well-built chaps called bouncers..

Golf clubs can't deny u access to their 18-hole lane, just becuz u dont meet their requirements of having a hcp below e.g. 20 (if they allow others). They do this, however, but its not legal. They can deny u access if u destroy their property (ie making holes in their "perfect" green/fairway) which probably would be the case of many of us becuz we dont have a hcp below a certain level. This is, in fact, why many golf clubs only allows players who have a stock/ownership in the golf club to play there - and only allows other golfers who has ownership in other golf clubs. Becuz then we r talking b2b markets where 2 (or more) companies (golf clubs in this case) have agreed to allow members (ie owners) to play on their golf lanes.
Peeing in the water to be expelled thats probably becus its a matter of puplic health.
Smacking some1 in the face at ur local pup etc., then u commit an illegale act, and the owner have all the rights they need to expell u (kick u out). Same goes for intimidation (to some level).

Society has these protections so that gimps who think they can buck against the rules are prevented from pursuing courses of action which are contrary to the interests of the majority. By banning cheaters, in line with the clearly stated rules of the EULA which you accept, GoA serve the interests of the majority of their service users, who frankly have a right to enjoy the service they've contracted without it being polluted and spoiled by the puerile posturing of a handful of idiots who want something for nothing.

Again, Goa cant on legal ground ban players. If, however, they alter the codes of which the game is build, then banning is in order, and Goa/Mythic can actually prosecute them.

Im sry for my bad english. At work and quite busy, but wanted to reply on a nice post (which is kinda rare these days )

 

[Meduza]

Happens every day though, starting with people being thrown out of a Casino for not wearing a tie, inappropriate clothes or simply because the guy at the door of the discotheque doesn´t like your nose. In cases of blattant discdrimination like in the case you mentioned it might be possible to do something against it... just like you said then it´s an unlawful reason. But generally, someone who´s offering a service has the choice to withdraw his offer for whatever (lawful) reason. Consumer rights have a limit.

Just becuz they do it, doesnt make it legal. Many ppl moon lighting (i think its called in english when u work and dont pay tax) but that doesnt make it legal anyway.

 

[Thorwyn]

Just becuz they do it, doesnt make it legal.

Moon lighting and running a business are completely different things and can´t be compared in terms of legitimacy.

Generally: Just because some think it´s illegal doesn´t mean it is.

The entire discussion is utterly redundant because all arguments here are based on assumptions and maybe´s and hearsays. You´re not a lawyer, neither am I. However, companies of the size of GoA usually have a pretty large legal department and they tend to know what they´re doing. And the last thing they do is make some BS that´s blattantly illegal and taking the risk of their entire company being sued into oblivion. Chances are that their stuff isn´t 100% waterproof in any given country, but core elements of their business - like denying service and handling bans - certainly is.

 

[Oidche]

Shops can refuse to serve somebody if they like. They're private property and they have every right to refuse to allow entrance or to serve anyone the owner doesn't like.
However we aren't a shop. We sell a service and not a product. You choose the service and it comes with terms and conditions. It's essentially a contract. You agree to those conditions in order to be able to access that service. If you don't agree to the conditions then you can't access the service and the client quits.

So I guess that if YOU unbind a contract, that you have to refund the remaining money?

 

[Meduza]

Generally: Just because some think it´s illegal doesn´t mean it is.

haha, true

But Im not wrong.

 

[Meduza]

However, companies of the size of GoA usually have a pretty large legal department

Thats an assumption in it self imo.

 

[Thorwyn]

No, that´s a fact because I´m working in one.

 

[Meduza]

No, that´s a fact because I´m working in one.

Its still an assumption to say that Goa HAS a legal department.

 

[NeonBlue]

The whole problem here is that a consumer that buys this game has no way of knowing whats right and wrong... Mythic allow non-afk macroing and GOA dont. The problem that arises here is that any consumer could argue that the rules are not clear enough, which would shoot holes in whatever GOA claim

Again ive already been through this with you...and again it seems to gone over ur head.

Mythic = US servers
GOA = European Servers

So basically u look up the rules for the servers ur going to play on...thats just common sense

If u look up rules for the US servers then play on the European servers...then get banned because u broke those rules....then YOU are the 1 to blame...for being thick and looking up the wrong set of rules

99.9% of the players have no problem finding the rules that apply to their servers

but probably 10% of the players have a problem sticking to those rules

and probably 5% of that 10% cry about it when they get banned or try to justify their actions by coming up with some bullshit story about how the rules aint clear enough for them

Looks like u fit into that 5%

However you look at this, giving a permaban to someone for somthing like this, without warning, is just bang out of order, and the openly refusing to repay any remainging fees is both illeagal and extremly bad service.

sigh either ur too stubborn or just too thick....without warning??

u had warnings everytime u logged onto the game and clicked accpet on the EULA..if u dont think thats enough..plenty of warnings on the European site...that 3rd party software IS NOT allowed, if thats not enough plenty of posts within these forums about cheaters/3rd party software not being allowed.

How many fecking warnings do you want...till you get the message??

You didnt heed the warnings, you decided to use 3rd party software you got banned...only person here to blame is you

its that simple !


as for ur fees...well whethers thats illegal or not keeping em..i dont know..but again it states that if you get banned or GOA decide to terminate ur account they can keep ur fees and again u click on the "accept" button before u log in. So to me its only sensible to presume by pressing the accept button that u agree to those terms.

As for saying its bad service...erm i cant see ur point there...because u got banned for cheating...GOA doesnt want cheats on their servers...so to me that is good service, coz i dont want cheats either in a game i play

now accept ur ban...accept that u cheated and accept uve lost ur fees...through ur OWN fault noone elses...and lets this thread die

 

[Danya]

Can someone post some goat porn so this thread gets locked?

Good plan Thrinnor.

 

[eggy]

OMG, how off topic has this got?

He cheated, he got banned....nuff said.

hi andy

 

[Maleg]

Glad to see GOA taking action against those found cheating. Seems you went out of your way to download a 3rd party application to make your life a bit easier and got busted for it and are now trying to defend it by saying 'I wasn't AFK, honest'. Newsflash, the AFK part isn't the issue.

I've seen nothing in this thread that justify's or vinicates your actions, in fact a most of it backs GOA and what a vast majority of the player base want.

 

[Meduza]

bla bla bla

was all i read there.

Funny as u say US and EU. I never played on US servers, but do they also have to accept the EULA each time they play ? If so, compare those 2 EULA and see if their the same. If so, then how the hell do Goa think they can implement US laws (assuming the EULA in US is legal) in EU ?!

Again, they cant ban. Its illegal. They do it, because we (the players) accept it and think its fair and just. Which it is, imo. Not fair imo they keep pre-paid subscriptions - nomatter what the EULA says. Ppl cheat if they can get away with it - its like real life. U drive faster when knowing no police/camera is around, not becuz its legal, but u think its fair becuz theres no1 else on the road. U buy moon lighting labour to do ur toilette, not becuz its legal, but becuz its cheaper and u think "I pay my taxes, so I pay enuf!". U install illegal copies of windows and office, not becuz its legal, but becuz u think "students shouldn't pay those outrages prices". U download illegal mp3 files, not becuz its legal, but becuz u wanna hear the songs be4 u buy the album.

What they r doing is illegal. Nomatter how fair and just we think it is. Imo: End of Story!

 

[[AB]Shirtan]

Newsflash, the AFK part isn't the issue.
I've seen nothing in this thread that justify's or vinicates your actions, in fact a most of it backs GOA and what a vast majority of the player base want.

Actually if you read the whole thread you would read that Mythic apparently allows macroing when you are by the keyboard. So in some waye it actually is an issue as most players thought we were playing under the same rules.

/Shirtan

 

[NeonBlue]

was all i read there.

Funny as u say US and EU. I never played on US servers, but do they also have to accept the EULA each time they play ? If so, compare those 2 EULA and see if their the same. If so, then how the hell do Goa think they can implement US laws (assuming the EULA in US is legal) in EU ?!

they probably do have an EULA too...and i doubt they will be the same...as both set of servers have different rules...so it would only make sense that the 2 EULA should differ slightly...though ive never played US servers either but to me if would be common sense

Again, they cant ban. Its illegal. They do it, because we (the players) accept it and think its fair and just. Which it is, imo. Not fair imo they keep pre-paid subscriptions - nomatter what the EULA says.

/yawn....again another person too stupid or too stubborn to accept things

so i aint even gonna answer this point...as its been answered so many times ur just too narrow minded to accept it

 

[sibanac]

was all i read there.

Funny as u say US and EU. I never played on US servers, but do they also have to accept the EULA each time they play ? If so, compare those 2 EULA and see if their the same. If so, then how the hell do Goa think they can implement US laws (assuming the EULA in US is legal) in EU ?!

Again, they cant ban. Its illegal. They do it, because we (the players) accept it and think its fair and just. Which it is, imo. Not fair imo they keep pre-paid subscriptions - nomatter what the EULA says. Ppl cheat if they can get away with it - its like real life. U drive faster when knowing no police/camera is around, not becuz its legal, but u think its fair becuz theres no1 else on the road. U buy moon lighting labour to do ur toilette, not becuz its legal, but becuz its cheaper and u think "I pay my taxes, so I pay enuf!". U install illegal copies of windows and office, not becuz its legal, but becuz u think "students shouldn't pay those outrages prices". U download illegal mp3 files, not becuz its legal, but becuz u wanna hear the songs be4 u buy the album.

What they r doing is illegal. Nomatter how fair and just we think it is. Imo: End of Story!

http://camelot-europe.goa.com/en/infos/ccomport.php vs http://support.darkageofcamelot.com...efno=011001-000006&p_created=1001970223&p_li=


http://camelot-europe.goa.com/en/infos/cga.php vs http://support.darkageofcamelot.com...efno=010926-000078&p_created=1001544682&p_li=

they are clearly not the same

 

[NeonBlue]

Actually if you read the whole thread you would read that Mythic apparently allows macroing when you are by the keyboard. So in some waye it actually is an issue as most players thought we were playing under the same rules.

then the player is at fault for not checking up on the rules..noone else

 

[[AB]Shirtan]

then the player is at fault for not checking up on the rules..noone else

Sure but i used to believe what I read in the grabbags, guess i will now have to check issues like this, or maybee GOA could make a grabbag of our own?

/Shirtan

 

[NeonBlue]

Sure but i used to believe what I read in the grabbags, guess i will now have to check issues like this, or maybee GOA could make a grabbag of our own?

/Shirtan

afaik the grabbag answered questions about the game itself? and/or issues relating to the US servers

never read it much myself...i always used the European website for my source of info...as it was the server i played on

but yes would be a good idea if GOA did their OWN version of the grabbag

 

[Juj]

so i aint even gonna answer this point...bla bla bla

You promise?

 

[Flimgoblin]

but yes would be a good idea if GOA did their OWN version of the grabbag

it's called the friday news - they usually cover a couple of points that have been brought up in RightNow queries or that E&E have passed on.

note that last friday's covered macroing

 

[NeonBlue]

it's called the friday news - they usually cover a couple of points that have been brought up in RightNow queries or that E&E have passed on.

note that last friday's covered macroing

hehehe nice one

forgot about the "Friday News" tbh

 

[dapprman]

Segueing away from the main argument, just to clarify a few points people have raised.

Insurance

I beleive there is specific legislation in place in the UK that specifically allows them to refuse their service, i.e. there is a law to allow them to do it. Give em time and I can probabbly get the actual details clarified as my sister used to work in Aircraft re-insurance​

Golf Clubs

These are private clubs, hence they can ban, bar, and black list members. DAoC iunder GOA is not a private club​

 

[[AB]Shirtan]

So they did, but still.....

Reminder on the interdiction of third party programs and macroing

While the majority of players play DAoC while abiding by our rules of conduct and respecting other players, some players do not play by the rules and seek by all means to "win" in a game where the only goal is to have fun. For this, they use or even design some third party programs, macroing ones for instance, that enable them to modify the game or its gameplay.
As indicated in the EULA , it is strictly forbidden to use these programs. This includes all the programs to cheat (speedhacks, radars…) and to modify the game or to play without being in front of the computer (macro tools, auto-hunter, auto craft, or even simply blocking a key of your keyboard…).
Every action made by a character or its pet must be performed while the player is present in front of his computer and you may not use programs or devices that automate game tasks. Leaving your pet in aggressive mode in a green monsters' spawn camp is thus forbidden.

If there are tools to cheat, there are also tools to detect cheating. Every use of the aforementioned cheating techniques can be punished by a definitive ban of the account. The characters will go straight to the trashcan, with no /release possible…

But IMO they we still have the the problem about the AFK'ness, please be more specific, so people know that is also applies even though u are in front of your computer..
At least they mentioned their insta-termination no temporary ban policy.

 

[Moo]

@ original poster

tough break on getting caught

 

[Juj]

@ original poster

tough break on getting caught

I used to think so... but life is sooooo much sweeter without DAoC

 

[Driwen]

So they did, but still.....



But IMO they we still have the the problem about the AFK'ness, please be more specific, so people know that is also applies even though u are in front of your computer..
At least they mentioned their insta-termination no temporary ban policy.

Every action made by a character or its pet must be performed while the player is present in front of his computer and you may not use programs or devices that automate game tasks. Leaving your pet in aggressive mode in a green monsters' spawn camp is thus forbidden.

its in there you just overread it.

 

[Danya]

Again, they cant ban. Its illegal. They do it, because we (the players) accept it and think its fair and just. Which it is, imo. Not fair imo they keep pre-paid subscriptions - nomatter what the EULA says. Ppl cheat if they can get away with it - its like real life. U drive faster when knowing no police/camera is around, not becuz its legal, but u think its fair becuz theres no1 else on the road. U buy moon lighting labour to do ur toilette, not becuz its legal, but becuz its cheaper and u think "I pay my taxes, so I pay enuf!". U install illegal copies of windows and office, not becuz its legal, but becuz u think "students shouldn't pay those outrages prices". U download illegal mp3 files, not becuz its legal, but becuz u wanna hear the songs be4 u buy the album.

What they r doing is illegal. Nomatter how fair and just we think it is. Imo: End of Story!

Banning is not illegal - they can terminate the contract between player and provider at any time provided they stay within the rules outlined in that contract. They did. There is no law in any EU state that says a private company such as GOA must give all persons equal access to their servers. They are privately owned servers and you pay for use of them in accordance with the EULA and CoC. If feel you don't wish to be bound by GOAs terms then you have the option of rejecting the contract, however to access the game you must have clicked I Agree which legally states your acceptance.