Is It Leagal To use a crafting macro as long as you are presant at the computer?

[Ziva]

Keyword here is 'accidentally'.
How many people accidentally use crafting macros, and how many people accidentally use radar?

Thanks for making GOA's point

I think you missed the fact i was using that example to point out what GOA/Mythics responsibility is in relation to their customers compared to other companies. Offcourse noone uses macroprogram of radarprogram accidently, you really don't have to point out the obvious.

Try reading my post a bit better, u might understand what i am trying to say and i definately was not trying to say people accidently got a radarprogram/macroprogram on their pc.

 

[vintervargen]

good! no 3 day ban for radars ala mythic

*cough* Galeladus *cough*

 

[Thorarin]

I think you missed the fact i was using that example to point out what GOA/Mythics responsibility is in relation to their customers compared to other companies. Offcourse noone uses macroprogram of radarprogram accidently, you really don't have to point out the obvious.

Try reading my post a bit better, u might understand what i am trying to say and i definately was not trying to say people accidently got a radarprogram/macroprogram on their pc.

I don't see any valid point in your post.
GOA is making cheating as 'unattractive as possible' by banning cheaters.
I can think of a few ways to make macro crafters easier to spot, but that's entirely beside the point. People shouldn't want to cheat. Those that do should get banned or punished in another way to make them change their mind about wanting to cheat (I do believe this is possible in some occasions).

The responsibility lies completely with the player if he decides to cheat or not. Yes, you may think crafting is boring, so don't craft. You may think RvR is boring without radar, find a different game.

 

[Vesania]

But.. but... you see its like this, I accidentally went to the radar website where unbeknowns't to me I clicked on the download button, this was an accident I was actually aiming for me "Donate to Cancer Research" button that was above it, anyway I then went into my documents and noticed the .exe - I had no idea what it did so I installed it... accidentally of course, I was really trying to get into my stash of gay-midget porn... anyway I then logged into DAoC and accidentally started up the radar. Obviously I mistook the radar for the warmap because I accidentally read the 1.70 patch notes and thought we were using NF now.

Of course, I then went on to accidentally use it to avoid and ambush enemy groups, making sure to run away when we had others inc.


All accidental of course... but that doesn't make me a bad person! If Mythic wern't so retarded as to make a game in which i'm not instantly the best player on the server then its my right... neigh, obligation to use 3rd party programs and multiple accounts until I am the best!! Fuck you all you GOA fanbois the EULA doesn't apply to me because I know the law!! And the law says that I can't be held accountable for anything I do because i'm not old enough to have sex yet!!!!

... I want a friend

 

[NeonBlue]

roflol!

 

[Meduza]

But.. but... you see its like this, I accidentally went to the radar website where unbeknowns't to me I clicked on the download button, this was an accident I was actually aiming for me "Donate to Cancer Research" button that was above it, anyway I then went into my documents and noticed the .exe - I had no idea what it did so I installed it... accidentally of course, I was really trying to get into my stash of gay-midget porn... anyway I then logged into DAoC and accidentally started up the radar. Obviously I mistook the radar for the warmap because I accidentally read the 1.70 patch notes and thought we were using NF now.

Of course, I then went on to accidentally use it to avoid and ambush enemy groups, making sure to run away when we had others inc.


All accidental of course... but that doesn't make me a bad person! If Mythic wern't so retarded as to make a game in which i'm not instantly the best player on the server then its my right... neigh, obligation to use 3rd party programs and multiple accounts until I am the best!! Fuck you all you GOA fanbois the EULA doesn't apply to me because I know the law!! And the law says that I can't be held accountable for anything I do because i'm not old enough to have sex yet!!!!

... I want a friend

 

[Meduza]

It is legally binding. Do you think that Mythic (that made the EULA originally, in the land of a crazed lawsystem where anyone can sue anything anytime) didn't make it foolproof? You must be so utterly naive it's almost scary...

If it IS indeed legally binding, as u state it is (even tho I disagree) then GOA/the shop u bought it at/Mythic must pay back the price of the game (and extensions, hence these dont work alone) if a player disagree to the license terms each time they change it.

If, however, these license terms was printed on the back of the game, then u had the choice to accept/dont accept at the time of purchase. I just looked on my box (all 6 of them) and no license terms is printed there that state they may probe my PC. In fact, only on the cover of the original DAoC box it states: "The use of Dark Age of Camelot implies acceptance of these conditions* and all further conditions included in this box." (*by "these conditions" they wrote that price of subscription may change). So in fact, if what u say is true, then Mythic can actually make all kinds of crazy conditions, becuz u accepted these prior to ur knowledge of them ?! No, they certainly cannot! The reason they THINK they can, is becuz none of us is actually gonna take them in a court of law! Furthermore, how on earth can one accept conditions he dont even know about (hence u dont see them be4 u install) ?!

Once installed and accepted, then u cannot return the game and want ur money back. But each time they change these "conditions" / license terms, then u have the right to not accept, and GOA/game shop/Mythic MUST pay back at least the price of the game plus extensions, and I would even say, they also MUST pay back pre-paid subcriptions, hence on time of purchase (ie when u paid ur subs) u had no knowledge of these new conditions/license terms. That, my dear friend, is the CORE of CONSUMER RIGHTS!

Then again, ofc they wont pay u back... Cuz as stated be4, none of us is ever gonna take them to court for 12 euro!

 

[Kreig]

(what on earth does bruv mean?) I have never seen that one before.

Bruv = Brother, so in many ways this would have multiple meanings could be family related aka My Brother or meant more as a type of "in da hood" type bruv or perhaps meant with relation to friendship /comradship.

Not very much implimentation imo sounds crap if ur using it in some ghetto sense.

Overdriven, so tell me: what does "" mean in the english language?

well the way i see it, it is meant as i kind of ooh err mrs type remark, shocked/painic/worry/scared type thing.

 

[Belomar]

well the way i see it, it is meant as i kind of ooh err mrs type remark, shocked/painic/worry/scared type thing.

From the context of Thorwyn's question, I would guess it was a rhetorical one.

 

[Sortbane]

But each time they change these "conditions" / license terms, then u have the right to not accept, and GOA/game shop/Mythic MUST pay back at least the price of the game plus extensions, and I would even say, they also MUST pay back pre-paid subcriptions, hence on time of purchase (ie when u paid ur subs) u had no knowledge of these new conditions/license terms

They must not do anything and least of all pay back the price of the game with extensions.. you haven't bought the game from them, you have only paid for an account that you may use as long as you pay your subs...(Mythic / GOA actually owns your characters and your account) If you want to get a refund on the game go back to the shop where you first bought it (you did remember the reciept did you?) and see if they might want to refund the game to you..

the last part about pre-paid subs I'm not entirely sure about, but if you pay for a service that you normally would have and you dont get it, there should be a refund. But in the case where the consumer breaks the conditions for that lease (ie. does something that he's not supposed to do) then it's a different story..

 

[Ziva]

I don't see any valid point in your post.
GOA is making cheating as 'unattractive as possible' by banning cheaters.
I can think of a few ways to make macro crafters easier to spot, but that's entirely beside the point. People shouldn't want to cheat. Those that do should get banned or punished in another way to make them change their mind about wanting to cheat (I do believe this is possible in some occasions).

The responsibility lies completely with the player if he decides to cheat or not. Yes, you may think crafting is boring, so don't craft. You may think RvR is boring without radar, find a different game.

Just because u disagree with what i say doesn't mean my post doesn't have any valid points.

I just don't think banning cheaters is all GOA should do to make cheating unattractive. Yes i agree, people shouldn't want to cheat but encouraging them to do so by making cheating unattractive is also a part of the job GOA should do imo. Banning them is only a method to scare of others but it isn't nearly enough.

Also methods of investigating aren't fully faultproof cause how can it be detected if i'm using a macroprogram to do certain actions or if im pressing a key down all the time with one finger? Yes, in case of crafting it's easy but what about actions like repeating spells/nukes/pets that aren't done by a fingerpress?

 

[Meduza]

They must not do anything and least of all pay back the price of the game with extensions.. you haven't bought the game from them, you have only paid for an account that you may use as long as you pay your subs...(Mythic / GOA actually owns your characters and your account) If you want to get a refund on the game go back to the shop where you first bought it (you did remember the reciept did you?) and see if they might want to refund the game to you..

the last part about pre-paid subs I'm not entirely sure about, but if you pay for a service that you normally would have and you dont get it, there should be a refund. But in the case where the consumer breaks the conditions for that lease (ie. does something that he's not supposed to do) then it's a different story..

A license is a product too, consumer wise. So like if u cant get the new PC to run becuz it uses another voltage thats common in ur area, u can return it. Much like, if u dont accept to the license terms.

 

[Levin]

To those who think so; why do you think macro crafting is less bad than radar?

And if your answer is "because it doesnt ruin other people's gameplay", let me tell you that yes, it certainly does. It affects me just as much as people cheating with radar does. It takes away the value of being a LGM spellcrafter, and so i couldn't motivate myself to go through the hell of getting there, thus i am stuck in the 700:eds. Just like a disillusioned RvR player leaves Emain for good because he has met one too many radar users. This goes for both with my spellcrafter and with my alchemist. Luckily i made LGM weapons a long long time ago, before at least i had heard of people who used macros for crafting.

For all those of us who don't cheat, there is a choice to be made between endless hours of crafting, or doing other more fun things. It's a hard choice, but we've all made it one way or the other. Those of us who decide to do other more fun/important things (maybe spending time with a son?) do that and feel pretty okay with it after all. No problem. But to then see some <insert profanity here> go cheat about it and install a third party program so he can do what you aren't supposed to be able to do, really pisses at least me off. He gets just as much an advantage over honest crafters as a radar user gets over non cheaters in rvr. Both are equally bad and in my opinion both deserve the same punishment, no matter if that punishment may be banning, social service in Cotswold, or just having to write 'CHEATING IS WRONG' on the black board 100 times.

Personally i think in both cases a month ban followed by a perma ban for second offense might be adequate. Just please don't make macro crafting seem like a 'lesser' crime - that's what gets to me. And I really can't believe as many as 90%, as someone said, use these cheats. If that's really the case i think it's time to cancel my sub.

 

[Meduza]

And I really can't believe as many as 90%, as someone said, use these cheats. If that's really the case i think it's time to cancel my sub.

the 90% was just my rough estimate I do, however, believe the percentage is very high. i cant rly believe some1 cares to spend several hours making hingies and only get a little cash from it when they buy at up to as high as 13 gold for each diamond.

 

[Devaster]

doh long thread have no pacience to read all.
as i didnt got an answear to my post in some other thread i will repeat myself.

Mythik's and GOA's code of conduct/eula are very much same except the points wich depends on local law or so ...

And i have a question for Requiel. I play on US servers also and the ingame csr on merlin told me that u can macro whatever u want as long as u'r at the pc and can reply within few seconds.

I guess GOA disagree on this point with Mythik so just want to be sure if its so.

 

[Darzil]

the 90% was just my rough estimate I do, however, believe the percentage is very high. i cant rly believe some1 cares to spend several hours making hingies and only get a little cash from it when they buy at up to as high as 13 gold for each diamond.

It's a lot easier since (I suspect to make macroing less tempting) Mythic introduced trinkets that use 20 metal, rather than 2, allowing you to trinket the same amount of material in 1/10 of the key presses.

Also, in pure business terms, 13 gold per diamond is a 10% return on capital. If you can keep buying them, and you're able to stomach the work, it's a pretty fast way of making money at little risk.

Not that I do it very often these days. Too boring (and I prefer scroll farming to trinketting !)

Darzil

 

[Morchaoron]

imo they need to change the crafting system anyway, while waiting it makes you think about what your doing; you have to wait so much irl for lots of stuff, and when you sit behind your comp to play a game you have to wait some more...

remove the timers from all crafting stuff, theres no need for them anyway, the only price should be the money you need for it, the timer is simply there to discourage crafting with boredom, which i consider to be a VERY bad thing and something like that shouldnt be in any game at all...


and yes with this system they are just asking for people to use macros...

 

[Panasonic]

And how about Mirc, Ventrillo etc...?

 

[Morchaoron]

And how about Mirc, Ventrillo etc...?

the game has no ingame macroer, which means your not supposed to macro afk, doing so is illegal

the game has no ingame radar, which means your not supposed to radar, doing so is illegal

the game has no ingame chat option to talk to your enemy, which means your not supposed to talk to your enemies, doing so is........... hey wait a minute

 

[Shike]

Bruv = Brother, so in many ways this would have multiple meanings could be family related aka My Brother or meant more as a type of "in da hood" type bruv or perhaps meant with relation to friendship /comradship.

Not very much implimentation imo sounds crap if ur using it in some ghetto sense.

oh, ok, thank you then for the explanation

the 90% was just my rough estimate I do, however, believe the percentage is very high. i cant rly believe some1 cares to spend several hours making hingies and only get a little cash from it when they buy at up to as high as 13 gold for each diamond.

haha, I have salvaged and trinketed material for several hundred plats in value Drops>salvage>trinket>sell = loads of cash, best way to make cash for me at least and have always been so I dunno why you find it so unlikely (i never really dealt with seals though like some ppl do but still..)

 

[xxManiacxx]

You used a third-party program thus you are guilty.

But reseting the trade skills should be enough if it was the first time.

 

[Maghica]

But.. but... you see its like this, I accidentally went to the radar website where unbeknowns't to me I clicked on the download button, this was an accident I was actually aiming for me "Donate to Cancer Research" button that was above it, anyway I then went into my documents and noticed the .exe - I had no idea what it did so I installed it... accidentally of course, I was really trying to get into my stash of gay-midget porn... anyway I then logged into DAoC and accidentally started up the radar. Obviously I mistook the radar for the warmap because I accidentally read the 1.70 patch notes and thought we were using NF now.

Of course, I then went on to accidentally use it to avoid and ambush enemy groups, making sure to run away when we had others inc.


All accidental of course... but that doesn't make me a bad person! If Mythic wern't so retarded as to make a game in which i'm not instantly the best player on the server then its my right... neigh, obligation to use 3rd party programs and multiple accounts until I am the best!! Fuck you all you GOA fanbois the EULA doesn't apply to me because I know the law!! And the law says that I can't be held accountable for anything I do because i'm not old enough to have sex yet!!!!

... I want a friend

Oops
GoA just accidentally deleted your account.

and now...we all know what happened to Juj's account

next topic please

 

[Teh FnoRd]

To qoute "The Matrix": Ignorence is bliss....

If it IS indeed legally binding, as u state it is (even tho I disagree) then GOA/the shop u bought it at/Mythic must pay back the price of the game (and extensions, hence these dont work alone) if a player disagree to the license terms each time they change it.

No they haven't. You can read the EULA on the Camelot Herald before you buy the game. And I don't know any stores that refounds an opened package.

If, however, these license terms was printed on the back of the game, then u had the choice to accept/dont accept at the time of purchase. I just looked on my box (all 6 of them) and no license terms is printed there that state they may probe my PC. In fact, only on the cover of the original DAoC box it states: "The use of Dark Age of Camelot implies acceptance of these conditions* and all further conditions included in this box." (*by "these conditions" they wrote that price of subscription may
change).

Yes I do agree ( ) that the whole of the CoC and EULA should be in that rather poor pamplet they call a "manual". But then again, you have the option to read it on the web at anytime. My RL m8 that draged me into DAoC even told me to do it before I bought it, tho I was lazy and didn't... ^^

So in fact, if what u say is true, then Mythic can actually make all kinds of crazy conditions, becuz u accepted these prior to ur knowledge of them ?! No, they certainly cannot! The reason they THINK they can, is becuz none of us is actually gonna take them in a court of law! Furthermore, how on earth can one accept conditions he dont even know about (hence u dont see them be4 u install) ?!

Yes they can change the conditions at anytime. It's right there in the EULA and you accept it everytime you press the accept button. The only thing you can do if you don't like it, is to press the decline button, log on your subscription and cancel.
You don't like it? Don't suport it then. simple.

Once installed and accepted, then u cannot return the game and want ur money back. But each time they change these "conditions" / license terms, then u have the right to not accept, and GOA/game shop/Mythic MUST pay back at least the price of the game plus extensions, and I would even say, they also MUST pay back pre-paid subcriptions, hence on time of purchase (ie when u paid ur subs) u had no knowledge of these new conditions/license terms. That, my dear friend, is the CORE of CONSUMER RIGHTS!

Cheesus Meduza, you are so naive it almost hurts. The very first time you accepted you accepted that Mythic(/GoA in some extent) can make whatever changes they like and you can't do shit about it, even less to get a refound.

 

[Teh FnoRd]

the 90% was just my rough estimate I do, however, believe the percentage is very high. i cant rly believe some1 cares to spend several hours making hingies and only get a little cash from it when they buy at up to as high as 13 gold for each diamond.

Just because you think/belive something doesn't make it so. Please stop making a clown out of yourself...
Yes crafting in DAoC is the uttermost boring shit I've ever encountered in a game (almost anyways), so you know what? I DON'T CRAFT!
I can't for the life of me understand that anyone is doing it, but those that do, except for cheating wankers ofcourse, have my outmost respect.

 

[Thorwyn]

But each time they change these "conditions" / license terms, then u have the right to not accept, and GOA/game shop/Mythic MUST pay back at least the price of the game plus extensions...

So... lets consider you buy some professional software, say 3DS Max or something and pay 3000 Euros for the full version (don´t know the correct price atm.. lazy evaluation). After usuing it for two years, you decide to buy an upgrade, disagree about the EULA, bring it back to your software store and expect them to take it *all* back despite the fact that you´re using the LICENSE and CD KEY for years?
I don´t think so...

 

[Darzil]

Try reading Microsoft licence details sometime. Tend to include stuff like sealed packages with sticky label stating that you agree to the contained details when you break the seal !

Darzil

 

[dapprman]

Try reading Microsoft licence details sometime. Tend to include stuff like sealed packages with sticky label stating that you agree to the contained details when you break the seal !

Darzil

And was discounted as being legally binding in the US and the European Union over 4 years ago (I seem to remember the EU was about 6 months ahead of the US).

 

[Franya]

Some things to point out... this is euro with more than a dozen countries with different laws... (btw i am from germany so please bear with my english)

No they haven't. You can read the EULA on the Camelot Herald before you buy the game. And I don't know any stores that refounds an opened
package.

if i have to read an EULA on the web it is not becomming part of the agreement here...

Yes I do agree ( ) that the whole of the CoC and EULA should be in that rather poor pamplet they call a "manual". But then again, you have the option to read it on the web at anytime. My RL m8 that draged me into DAoC
even told me to do it before I bought it, tho I was lazy and didn't... ^^

even in the shrinkwraped packages it would be too late to become part of the agreement (although i admit i am not too sure about that point. If i have the option to decline i can get a reimbursement (that i am sure) here.

Yes they can change the conditions at anytime. It's right there in the EULA and you accept it everytime you press the accept button. The only thing you can do if you don't like it, is to press the decline button, log on your subscription and cancel.
You don't like it? Don't suport it then. simple.

Just because it is in the EULA and i accept it doesn't make it applicable.
There have been a few cases here already that made it clear that such a point in a EULA is not valid. If you want to change the agreement you have to make it possible for the user to decline the new version. If the user declines he can get the product back for reimbursement

Cheesus Meduza, you are so naive it almost hurts. The very first time you accepted you accepted that Mythic(/GoA in some extent) can make whatever changes they like and you can't do shit about it, even less to get a refound.

I have made no agreement whatsoever involving Mythic...

Try reading Microsoft licence details sometime. Tend to include stuff like sealed packages with sticky label stating that you agree to the contained details when you break the seal !

Darzil

Afaik thats called the shrinkwrap agreement. That sort of binding has been ruled out over here (in germany) as to be not valid at all... Theefore the microsoft agreements have to be readable before opening the packages...

In my opinion it would probably be very interesting and funny if some rich guy would really take this to a court and fight it through.., but seeing the amount of money involved here (Gameprice and monthly fees) i really doubt that someone could/would really do it.

P.S.: Just stating some facts on this EULA stuff. I am in no way supporting cheating...
P.P.S.: In my opinion a final ban was a bit too harsh. Wipe the tradeskill and 3 or 7 days would have been enough.

 

[Thorwyn]

There have been a few cases here already that made it clear that such a point in a EULA is not valid. If you want to change the agreement you have to make it possible for the user to decline the new version. If the user declines he can get the product back for reimbursement

So you can buy 20 copies of DAOC (or any other piece of software), write down the CD keys, then decline the EULA 20 times, bring them all back and expect to get your money back?

 

[Anastasia]

Yes they can change the conditions at anytime. It's right there in the EULA and you accept it everytime you press the accept button. The only thing you can do if you don't like it, is to press the decline button, log on your subscription and cancel.
You don't like it? Don't suport it then. simple.

I think the point he's trying to make is that just because something is in the EULA and you click accept does not make it leagally binding. That would make a bit of a mockery of hundreds of years of legislature.

Its a contract of sorts, and like any contract can be challenged in court. But like you say Mythic / GOA will have invested 100's (if not 1000's) of lawyer-hours (I refuse to say man-hours or woman-hours here ) into making it as legally defensible as possible.

Clicking "I Agree" does not affect your statutory rights in any way whatsoever, and any "agreement" which states otherwise is, by its very nature illegal.

Yes crafting in DAoC is the uttermost boring shit I've ever encountered in a game (almost anyways), so you know what? I DON'T CRAFT!

Couldn't agree more with that. I was tempted to try and find ways of becoming a better crafter without having to endure the mindlessness of the process, but then I thought to myself "Get a life, chump, this is a game - go find something to do that is fun". Either that or log out.