I am very angry with you

[Tesla Monkor]

yes they can...and they have done in the past, though i am not sure (As requiel said) if they do it in a case like this, when the account info has been shared. Goa should really re-think their account sharing rules (not trading) it happens a lot, everyone knows it does and there is nothing really wrong with it, logging on a friends alt to help with something etc (imo)

My brother inlaw has access to my account and has a char on it, nothing sinister, but i guess because of that i dont have anything to fall back on if something goes wrong with my account now?

No, they shouldn't. Opening that particular can of worms would cause a lot more damage to the game and community, than having to deal with the occasional careless gamer that got ripped.

- GOA helps those that genuinely got hacked. (And there's very, very few of these.)
- GOA does not help those that gave away their account information and got their accounts emptied. (It sucks for sure, but that's the rules of the game.)

You can't expect GOA to protect you against your own carelessness beyond telling you 'DO NOT SHARE' (Which is what the CoC is for). They simply don't have the time to do more so.

Don't hand out your account info. Don't accept account info from others. Ingame, via email, MSN or otherwise. (Hell, don't accept anything via MSN, Email other than regular messages. Basic internet common sense.)

This thread has devolved into the 'I did something dumb and they won't help me so I'll start slinging mud to get attention'-status. Time to get it locked.

 

[JackHeart]

What is sad is that Cemi0 gets punished for beeing honest.
If he had said that HE would had been hacked with a keylogger, then proberbly GOA would have restored his characters and account.

Yes, we know that account sharing is not allowed, so he made a misstake. It is just so sad that he will have to pay such a high price, and that the scammer comes away with it.
No matter IF cemi0 gave the account information or not, he thought he did it to a friend that he can trust, and he didnt gave it with the intention of getting striped bare naked.

It is just sad to see that "rules" are so stiff and not flexible at all, that honest and good players that have invested so much time (and money) get so burnt..

I understand that GOA have all the rights on their side, but I fail to see what benefits them to tread a player like this. Rules may be rules, but imo (and Requiel says so to) should every case be treated as a separate case.
No matter what Cemi0 done or not, he has been violated by a scammer, and in my opinion gets to pay a way to high price for that. Thanks to some stiff rules.

 

[Ixoth]

Above said and me feeling for u wholeheartedly.
That is why i never ever share accts, nor do i borrow other people accts.

I am scared to death of being the guilty party for some fella loosing his "ingame valuables" and characters.

I have been offered to borrow many accts over the years, to try out hunters, dark SM´s, warlocks etc etc. However tempting it has been, i dont want to.

I have all the security i feel i can have. Antivirus updated daily, Firewall with a registered internal ip, so that direct active connections isnt possible. Spyware/webbrowsing protection.

But there are always flaws to exploit, i am very worried about if transparent messengers, such as msn, that uses a client - server connection, has flaws/exploits allowing people to take them over remotely.

If it is as described by the original poster, the chatlogs from MSN must be stolen/read. And those are stored on harddrive are they not?
So the person must either have had Physical access to the computer, or used one of the many trojan backdoor programs that is out there. or exploited some sort of flaw in msn to get the logs. or a keylogger.

please be as detailed as possible.

edit: oh and an alternative way to do this is, contact MSN. report it to them and if MS policy permit, jan anders might be able to get either your info that way or bust him for invasion of privacy or such. As that is what it is.
I am unaware of whose laws are to be the valid ones. but whichever MSN is the place to start.

Pretty much what Herjulf said. I also am well protected with software firewall and anvirus etc programs, which in realtime protect the computers I use.

 

[IainC]

What is sad is that Cemi0 gets punished for beeing honest.
If he had said that HE would had been hacked with a keylogger, then proberbly GOA would have restored his characters and account.

Yes, we know that account sharing is not allowed, so he made a misstake. It is just so sad that he will have to pay such a high price, and that the scammer comes away with it.
No matter IF cemi0 gave the account information or not, he thought he did it to a friend that he can trust, and he didnt gave it with the intention of getting striped bare naked.

It is just sad to see that "rules" are so stiff and not flexible at all, that honest and good players that have invested so much time (and money) get so burnt..

I understand that GOA have all the rights on their side, but I fail to see what benefits them to tread a player like this. Rules may be rules, but imo (and Requiel says so to) should every case be treated as a separate case.
No matter what Cemi0 done or not, he has been violated by a scammer, and in my opinion gets to pay a way to high price for that. Thanks to some stiff rules.

Everytime we get a hack report the first thing we check is to see if the accoutn has ben traded, shared or whatever. It's easy to see even when the owner swears he has never shared it. He's not being punished for being honest, he's a victim of nothing other than his own naivety.

The reason why we won't make an exception and why we have to stick to the rules (not just in this case but in every case) is that it simply isn't fair to make exceptions. Either we make an exception for nobody or we make it for everybody. We treat each case on it's merits as circumstances will be different but our rules are very clear.
1: Don't share your account
2: You are responsible for everything done on or with your account.

 

[necromania]

I answered all of your questions. Repeatedly in some cases. You also got a proper response initially. I apologise for the typos but the answer would have been exactly the same if I had proof read it a dozen times. My typing sucks, mostly I manage to catch my typos before sending stuff out or hitting 'submit', sometimes I don't, that's irrelevant to the issue though. You're entitled to your view of our support but I am honestly struggling to think of any support model that would reward people for breaking rules. Regardless of hw carefully spellchecked or phrased the initial response was we would still be having this discussion as - contrary to your repeated claims otherwise - it is about the items you gave away for you. The only answer you would have been satisfied with is the return of your items, and that is something we cannot do.

you can do it , you just wont thats the truth :worthy:

 

[Chosen]

Seriously this type of stupid rules make honest people like Cemi0 quit this game.

You should atleast have somekinda rule that allowes the player to withdraw the trading they did, too make sure such tragic events does not happen. And ofc you could counter this with something like "people could abuse this with sending a mail in to get the items they sold for real cash on ebay, traded back", but it's not hard to see if it is a scam trade or a normal "legal" trade.

Since the scammer would probably take everything he got, even the items he is wearing.

Because the current rule does protect the scammer, and make the victim suffer, and it shouldn't be like that. You should do everything in your hand to make your honest customers happy. With all these new MMORPGs releasing, you should do everything in your power to keep the community!

You made the rules, and you should be able to breake them aswell. The problem is, that you don't want to do it!

 

[chretien]

Seriously this type of stupid rules make honest people like Cemi0 quit this game.
.....
Because the current rule does protect the scammer, and make the victim suffer, and it shouldn't be like that. You should do everything in your hand to make your honest customers happy. With all these new MMORPGs releasing, you should do everything in your power to keep the community!

You made the rules, and you should be able to breake them aswell. The problem is, that you don't want to do it!

Except that this guy isn't an 'honest customer', he's someone who broke the rules. Requiel already said that if he was really hacked then he'd get his stuff back. If he goes and gives it away though, why should he get it back?

 

[Chosen]

Except that this guy isn't an 'honest customer', he's someone who broke the rules. Requiel already said that if he was really hacked then he'd get his stuff back. If he goes and gives it away though, why should he get it back?

What I meant with honest, is people that are friendly inngame. Help out the community(Where Cemi0 is VERY important, since he is one of the biggest raid leaders out there). And he is honest with his post, saying everything as it is, and not claiming that he was beeing keylogged.

 

[Mundokar]

Sorry to hear Healler. What strikes me as strange that only some of your chars are deleted and not your main chars. Might point to the offender maybe ?

As to accounts. GoA has stated time and again to not give out your password. And certainly not via Microsoft software which is the target of every scriptkiddy in the world.

And Chosen. Goa cant make a technical change to the software, that should be addressed by Mythic. And imagine the abuse you can get by implementing and option to undo trades.

Healler if you need help (running around GG again to assemble marbles) just give a yell. Your to good a guy to lose by Midgard.

 

[Himse]

Ok Ok, i dont know all the facts but still, we all know rules are rules, but i bet 60% of people have given out their details to a friend. Assuming it will be ok, but people dont expect other twats to hack into your friends msn and ask for your pw.

cemi0 broke a rule, but you are so uptight about your rules. Imo relax, you play a computer game too? suppose you dont know how it feels to have your work destroyed because only you know your pw and so on...

All gm's should actually think about the customers needs, not what they wanna put, we pay the money to have some decent customer support tbh.

 

[Chosen]

And Chosen. Goa cant make a technical change to the software, that should be addressed by Mythic. And imagine the abuse you can get by implementing and option to undo trades.

I'm not saying there should be a trigger inngame that allowes you to withdraw a trade, but with "rare" occasions like this, you should be able to send a mail to GOA and they can check if this was a scam or not and delete the items on the scammer and give it back to the real owner(And this is something they are able to do).

 

[IainC]

I'm not saying there should be a trigger inngame that allowes you to withdraw a trade, but with "rare" occasions like this, you should be able to send a mail to GOA and they can check if this was a scam or not and delete the items on the scammer and give it back to the real owner(And this is something they are able to do).

Ok.. Now consider these points.
1: I and the rest of the GM team have a finite amount of time. Do we concentrate our efforts on people who have encountered a problem through no fault of their own or do we spend time and resources on people who have broken our rules?
2: There has to be a line drawn. The line has to be very clear, easy to understand and not open to negotiation. Otherwise we get into long and drawn out arguments with anyone who falls the wrong side of the line as to why we are not able to do anything for them but were able to help someone who had a similar problem. The line is simple and it is that people who have taken reasonable efforts to protect their account are entitled to help. Those who don't or actively put their accounts in danger as this person has are not. If the line is blurry or is open to interpretation then it is worthless.

People complaining about lack of customer support really don't seem to understand this issue. The poster got support. He asked for help, we investigated the situation and explained why we weren't able to reverse his trades. He got an answer he didn't like and equated that with poor support.
Sometimes support is not able to give you what you want and that doesn't mean the support is bad, it means that you're asking for something unreasonable. It's similar to causing deliberate damage to a product you own and then complaining about their service when the manufacturer won't replace it under warranty. This situation is exactly the same.

 

[Chosen]

Ok.. Now consider these points.
1: I and the rest of the GM team have a finite amount of time. Do we concentrate our efforts on people who have encountered a problem through no fault of their own or do we spend time and resources on people who have broken our rules?

You got the time to post on these forums, and it shouldn't take you long to fix issues like these. Yes, it was his own fault for sharing his account with the one he tought he was his friend, but does this make him a bad person ? Is it really that hard to help this guy out ? Seriously, he is one of the biggest raid leaders here in midgard, loosing him will cause no good for the other midgarians. Aint your job to provide the best to the players of your game ?

Why can't you just breake this rules of your, and give him back the items from the character that it got traded too, instead of spending lots of time here arguing!

Seriously, it takes you a couple of minutes too fix what this guy spend his last years of accomplishing!

 

[Coalface]

Requiel, you are of course right in what you are saying, CemiO broke the CoC.

What I am wondering about is this: GOA says it cant give out any information conserning the scammer.

In my opinion this feels very weird, because the scammer has not only fooled CemiO, he has also broken the law.
In my country (Sweden) what he has done constitutes to fraud, and is punishable with up to a maximum sentence of two years in prison.

I dont think laws outside my country works much differently, so with this policy of not giving the owner of account information, GOA are acctually protecting a felon.

I dont know if this is relevant, but it is something I feel I have to get of my chest.

This message is not aimed at you Requiel, I have gotten help from you on MLs on several occasions. But knowing that someone I consider to be a friend (even though I never have met him in RL) has gotten in to so much trouble, and not being able to help really tears me apart.


Sigh, I suppose that was all for now.

All you out there in Midgard take care (except scammers who I hope will get into moderate troubles for being conniving bastards)..

 

[joap]

2: There has to be a line drawn. The line has to be very clear, easy to understand and not open to negotiation. Otherwise we get into long and drawn out arguments with anyone who falls the wrong side of the line as to why we are not able to do anything for them but were able to help someone who had a similar problem. The line is simple and it is that people who have taken reasonable efforts to protect their account are entitled to help. Those who don't or actively put their accounts in danger as this person has are not. If the line is blurry or is open to interpretation then it is worthless.

Agreed 100%. The law is the law and it has to be followed. cemi0 has recognized he is at fault here. But then again, laws get changed if people think they can be made better.
What I see from this episode is the total lack of empathy from GOA customer support towards one of its customers, no will to change to rules to protect good people like cemi0.
This blind obidience to rules means that a good person will leave the game, while another guy who has no problems taking items he did not work for will stay in game.

Is this the type of community you want for your game Requiel?

EDIT: I'm addressing you, Requiel, because you have responded in GOAs behalf. My post should be seen as a query to GOA itself, and not you personaly.

 

[technasia]

He did brake the rules by giving his account info away to what he taught was a friend, he can't do that, but it wasn't his friend, it was actualy someone pretending to be his friend, i understand somewhere that you can't give his ittems back,but the person that took the ittems has to be punished tho in some way, haven't read all the posts but i guess it should be able for you requiel to find the guy thats after it, and just ban him. Atleast then he's also punished for doing that, cause he's also breaking the coc by accepting the pass tho cause it states thats its forbidden to give out info so i assume its also forbidden to accept the info? cause you'll be playing with an account that isn't yours

I mean thats the least thing you can do tho, indeed he broke the coc, but that doesn't mean you cant help him more. It shouldn't end there in my point of view

 

[IainC]

Agreed 100%. The law is the law and it has to be followed. cemi0 has recognized he is at fault here. But then again, laws get changed if people think they can be made better.
What I see from this episode is the total lack of empathy from GOA customer support towards one of its customers, no will to change to rules to protect good people like cemi0.
This blind obidience to rules means that a good person will leave the game, while another guy who has no problems taking items he did not work for will stay in game.

Is this the type of community you want for your game Requiel?

EDIT: I'm addressing you, Requiel, because you have responded in GOAs behalf. My post should be seen as a query to GOA itself, and not you personaly.

Of course it's not what I want to see but like many other people in this thread you aren't seeing the full picture here. There can be no exceptions, otherwise the system is unfair by definition. There is no 'gold club' where people who have played since beta and never caused trouble get preferential service. I don't care whether you are the living incarnation of a saint or someone who's been suspended multiple times for cheating. You should be treated equally and be entitled to the same level of support.

Let's say I agree that it's unfair for Cemi0 to lose out here (and personally I do for what it's worth. I don't like seeing bad guys get away with things and I don't like seeing good guys get stuffed). Let's say I agree to return all his items and so on. What I've just done is massively unfair to all the people who have been in the same situation previously or wil be in future. I give him back his items and say to the next person who reports a scam 'sorry, you gave the guy your details so he could PL your warlock on Camlann. We can't give your stuff back.' and that person now has a legitimate complaint. Not because he's not getting his things back, but because he's being treated differently to someone else. Whether I like it or not I have to follow the rules. Not because I'll be in trouble if I don't but because I make the job harder for every other GM on every team. How would you feel if you found out that some people were getting better treatment than others? In this case the person is a friend of yours so you'd have no problem with that I assume, in other cases you could be forgiven for thinking the guy gets more help because he's a friend of the GMs or is an E&E or whatever. I don't play favourites and I can't afford to give the impression that I do.

The policy isn't going to change. It will remain against the rules to share your account details and we won't be able to provide support if you choose to ignore that rule. The English GM team sees around 10 'hack' reports in an average week. Nearly every single one is as a direct result of the victim sharing their account details. This is why every few weeks we warn people of the dangers and remind them of the rules in the news. Every week we get the same reports.

 

[[CE]Hjendug]

Of course it's not what I want to see but like many other people in this thread you aren't seeing the full picture here. There can be no exceptions, otherwise the system is unfair by definition. There is no 'gold club' where people who have played since beta and never caused trouble get preferential service. I don't care whether you are the living incarnation of a saint or someone who's been suspended multiple times for cheating. You should be treated equally and be entitled to the same level of support.

Let's say I agree that it's unfair for Cemi0 to lose out here (and personally I do for what it's worth. I don't like seeing bad guys get away with things and I don't like seeing good guys get stuffed). Let's say I agree to return all his items and so on. What I've just done is massively unfair to all the people who have been in the same situation previously or wil be in future. I give him back his items and say to the next person who reports a scam 'sorry, you gave the guy your details so he could PL your warlock on Camlann. We can't give your stuff back.' and that person now has a legitimate complaint. Not because he's not getting his things back, but because he's being treated differently to someone else. Whether I like it or not I have to follow the rules. Not because I'll be in trouble if I don't but because I make the job harder for every other GM on every team. How would you feel if you found out that some people were getting better treatment than others? In this case the person is a friend of yours so you'd have no problem with that I assume, in other cases you could be forgiven for thinking the guy gets more help because he's a friend of the GMs or is an E&E or whatever. I don't play favourites and I can't afford to give the impression that I do.

The policy isn't going to change. It will remain against the rules to share your account details and we won't be able to provide support if you choose to ignore that rule. The English GM team sees around 10 'hack' reports in an average week. Nearly every single one is as a direct result of the victim sharing their account details. This is why every few weeks we warn people of the dangers and remind them of the rules in the news. Every week we get the same reports.

Then i would like to see you, suspend every single person on irc that calls me names from now on, 2 weeks as u gave me... or wait is that not equally treathed ?

 

[duact]

Dont use msn

 

[Grimmen]

Dont use msn

atleast not for sharing vital information.

 

[Ixoth]

Then i would like to see you, suspend every single person on irc that calls me names from now on, 2 weeks as u gave me... or wait is that not equally treathed ?

Don't be stupid.

 

[JackHeart]

Everytime we get a hack report the first thing we check is to see if the accoutn has ben traded, shared or whatever. It's easy to see even when the owner swears he has never shared it. He's not being punished for being honest, he's a victim of nothing other than his own naivety.

The reason why we won't make an exception and why we have to stick to the rules (not just in this case but in every case) is that it simply isn't fair to make exceptions. Either we make an exception for nobody or we make it for everybody. We treat each case on it's merits as circumstances will be different but our rules are very clear.
1: Don't share your account
2: You are responsible for everything done on or with your account.

I do respect GOAs rules and opinion, even thou I dont agree with them.
Even if the rules are crystal clear, it is always sad when there is no empathy involved, and someone (even through his own naivety) gets hurt and a scammer can benefit from it.
In my humble opinion rules are here to protect us players a well as the company (GOA) so everyone can play fair and honest and have a tool to be able to prevent dishonest behaviour and cheaters.

In this case, there is no dishonest at all involved from cemi0. He is as you self point out a victim of naivety and sad circumstances.

Even thou I know it is properbly not so, it feel somehow that you have to set an example. Follow the rules and let him burn on the stake.

Thanks for your answer Requiel, and if nothing else, it shows that you take this seriously. That is something that at least I appriciate.

 

[Nul]

Dont use msn

If I could I would run everything on Linux.

Avoid anything that has with M$ to do imo.
Use a decent F/W. Sygate or Kerio. (I prefer Keiro)
Use those free online virus scans on the web. (I prefer www.f-secure.com)

Internet is anarchy.

 

[joap]

Of course it's not what I want to see but like many other people in this thread you aren't seeing the full picture here. There can be no exceptions, otherwise the system is unfair by definition. There is no 'gold club' where people who have played since beta and never caused trouble get preferential service. I don't care whether you are the living incarnation of a saint or someone who's been suspended multiple times for cheating. You should be treated equally and be entitled to the same level of support.

No contention here. What i'm saying is if the current rule set is flawed, let's work to make it better. And still apply it universaly. I'm not going against equal treatment, i'm asking for is the will to change the rules if needed.

Let's say I agree that it's unfair for Cemi0 to lose out here (and personally I do for what it's worth. I don't like seeing bad guys get away with things and I don't like seeing good guys get stuffed). Let's say I agree to return all his items and so on. What I've just done is massively unfair to all the people who have been in the same situation previously or wil be in future.

By this reasoning we'd have slavery, women would not be allowed to vote and left axe would never have been nerfed. Just because people have been wrongly treated by a set of rules in the past, that's no reason not to change it imo.

I give him back his items and say to the next person who reports a scam 'sorry, you gave the guy your details so he could PL your warlock on Camlann. We can't give your stuff back.' and that person now has a legitimate complaint. Not because he's not getting his things back, but because he's being treated differently to someone else. Whether I like it or not I have to follow the rules. Not because I'll be in trouble if I don't but because I make the job harder for every other GM on every team. How would you feel if you found out that some people were getting better treatment than others? In this case the person is a friend of yours so you'd have no problem with that I assume, in other cases you could be forgiven for thinking the guy gets more help because he's a friend of the GMs or is an E&E or whatever. I don't play favourites and I can't afford to give the impression that I do..

Cemi0 asked for his items back and you didn't give them, ok fair enough, i think even he did expect that. This is not what people are upset about, i think.
He then asked for the identity of the thief, and you didn't give it either. It's your reply to this second request (i believe) that is bafling people.
No matter how he got the items that person is a thief. As a member of the community I would like to know as well who this person is (but i'm afraid i failed to drive this point in my previous post).
Even under the current ruleset, i don't understand how you want to protect that persons identity. I interpret the spirit of the currect policy about account sharing as: "you share your account, and what the other guy does is equivalent of you doing it". If we take this into account, cemi0 would know who he traded with and you should be able to disclose the information about the thiefs identity. And these are the rules i'm asking to be looked at the most. You are protecting a dishonest person due to a (IMHO) skewed view of the current rules.

The policy isn't going to change. It will remain against the rules to share your account details and we won't be able to provide support if you choose to ignore that rule. The English GM team sees around 10 'hack' reports in an average week. Nearly every single one is as a direct result of the victim sharing their account details. This is why every few weeks we warn people of the dangers and remind them of the rules in the news. Every week we get the same reports.

You're first sentece makes me sad, and proves what i said before.

 

[vintervargen]

we need some really good lawyer/prosecutor to start playing daoc.

give the recieving accounts IP/name/adress/phone nr/social security nr/visa card/car registration etc.

 

[vintervargen]

btw, they should add a personal in-game pincode that you need for trading/dropping/destroying items.

 

[papaboo]

Raquiel, I think you should be careful when talking about treating some customers different than others.

I'm not offending Sourcream in this post, I'm glad that she got her items back.

Should I highlight the last 4 words in the above sentence or did you get my point already?

Imo it's taking the huge piss not giving cemi0 his items back when you did it to another customer a few weeks ago.

 

[[CE]Hjendug]

Don't be stupid.

Excuse me ? would u like to be banned ingame for calling names on irc ?

 

[hakoir]

feels like GM´s mostley just dont care
i respect my rm to dark and put 49 by mistake instedd of 50 in dark
and contacted a gm directly and askt if he could grant me a new respec so
i dident have to get a new stone for 9p , it was not like i tried to get a new respec to save for later , he could easily look at loggs i guess to see i just made a respec 1 min ago and if dident use it right away just take it away

but just got a no, so bought a new one not so big deal but it feelt like
he was laughing behind my back yelling n00b, i am a big mighty gm i dont care
about you little people go back and farm i most hmmm earn my living and work saying no to more n00bs.

ahh feelt got to get some steam out been building some up(adding stealthers suxs)

 

[Chosen]

feels like GM´s mostley just dont care
i respect my rm to dark and put 49 by mistake instedd of 50 in dark
and contacted a gm directly and askt if he could grant me a new respec so
i dident have to get a new stone for 9p , it was not like i tried to get a new respec to save for later , he could easily look at loggs i guess to see i just made a respec 1 min ago and if dident use it right away just take it away

but just got a no, so bought a new one not so big deal but it feelt like
he was laughing behind my back yelling n00b, i am a big mighty gm i dont care
about you little people go back and farm i most hmmm earn my living and work saying no to more n00bs.

ahh feelt got to get some steam out been building some up(adding stealthers suxs)

Well, small details like that shouldn't really be compared to what happened to Cami0. We can't expect the GMs to do everything for us, but in this case one guy lost everything he have worked for in his DAoC years.