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Ialkarn
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- #61
Exactly.
Exactly.
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vindicat0r
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- #62
I think this is a case of some ppl not willing to accept there Wrong because they have been Full Weapon specced so long.
What I would ask you to do is to test it your self, Forget the spec and what it offer's etc. Go and see what increase in Damage you get. If There was a noticable increase in Damage i would have stayed Full Polearm. There Wasnt So I changed, I still do the Same Damage I used to do but ........
I have Slam < omg this is so useful for so many reasons>
I can Cross Guard my MA or Assister's < Uber >
I can Switch Guard During the Fight to help another
I can Go S/S if I am taking Major damage and help healer's.
These are just a few reason's ....... There are many more.
Basically what it boil's down to is can u handle switching to s/s and Pole ever few sec's if needed ?
It Require's ALOT or effort to play a Hybrid than a Full Weapon spec'd arms.
Group utility is ALL what Daoc is about, I mean look at Mid groups........ Healers ? they have so much util no wonder thers 3...... Look at Shaman's ? They have so much to offer its insane, Amazing Supp charc. A Hybrid Spec'd Arms has ALOT to offer, he can Defend and Attack when needed and still do huge damage while retaining his defence .......... Every Alb group Should have at least 1 Hybrid Spec arms that has Soldier's Barricade also.
So I wouldnt just quash the hybrid's unless u actually try it, I have been s/s - Hybrid - Diff Hybrid - Full Pole - V Diff Hybrid
If I had the cash for the suit and Itamz I would deffinetly go for the 2 damage types. This add's yet more group Utility which again is Vital For YOUR Full Group. Make the most out of your group and give it every advantage you can .......... mids and Hibs do its about time we do to.
In Short ......... Test it dont take anybody's word.
What I would ask you to do is to test it your self, Forget the spec and what it offer's etc. Go and see what increase in Damage you get. If There was a noticable increase in Damage i would have stayed Full Polearm. There Wasnt So I changed, I still do the Same Damage I used to do but ........
I have Slam < omg this is so useful for so many reasons>
I can Cross Guard my MA or Assister's < Uber >
I can Switch Guard During the Fight to help another
I can Go S/S if I am taking Major damage and help healer's.
These are just a few reason's ....... There are many more.
Basically what it boil's down to is can u handle switching to s/s and Pole ever few sec's if needed ?
It Require's ALOT or effort to play a Hybrid than a Full Weapon spec'd arms.
Group utility is ALL what Daoc is about, I mean look at Mid groups........ Healers ? they have so much util no wonder thers 3...... Look at Shaman's ? They have so much to offer its insane, Amazing Supp charc. A Hybrid Spec'd Arms has ALOT to offer, he can Defend and Attack when needed and still do huge damage while retaining his defence .......... Every Alb group Should have at least 1 Hybrid Spec arms that has Soldier's Barricade also.
So I wouldnt just quash the hybrid's unless u actually try it, I have been s/s - Hybrid - Diff Hybrid - Full Pole - V Diff Hybrid
If I had the cash for the suit and Itamz I would deffinetly go for the 2 damage types. This add's yet more group Utility which again is Vital For YOUR Full Group. Make the most out of your group and give it every advantage you can .......... mids and Hibs do its about time we do to.
In Short ......... Test it dont take anybody's word.
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gunner440
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- #63
i used to have slam but swpped it for more offence
oh and even tho im full offence spec doesnt mean i dont use 1h~~
anyone seen me without shield in my hand?^^
oh and even tho im full offence spec doesnt mean i dont use 1h~~
anyone seen me without shield in my hand?^^
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Ialkarn
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- #64
Yes except anything linked whit your primary role in a group (damage dealer).
Oh yea you can guard your MA from healer's hammer!
Serious if you got major agro as tank you have already won your battle unless you fight a zerg (then a shield wont save you aniway).
also since you don't have advance guard you have both to stop and face the agroer to make it work,it gonna end how? 1 tank left to kill all supports?
Yes and doing that you leave your assisting squad reducing their damage output ,going to do something someone else is supposed to do already (the paly of the group).
If they hitting you obviously they aren't hitting someone else (clerics) so you get healed,if not you got ip/ap;also Engage works pretty well whit 7 shield too;if they focusing assisting on you, get close to your pali and use his guard,if they are split on multy targets don't bother and continue to attack,you wont die.
like?
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bracken_woodman
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- #65
Aslong as you get your dmg type to 50+ with items/rr the difference is negligible. It's been shown time and time again in logs - and I can say from my own experience with s/s, hybrid and now with pure spec that it's the case. The primary argument against hybrids is about damage. It's an argument that isn't backed up by the evidence. Like I said before, I don't say this out of any self-interest...I'm not specced that way any more. I say it because if people want to choose it as a spec then they can do it safe in the knowledge that it's a perfectly good choice providing they get all the bits and pieces set up right...and that they then make the most of what they got.
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bracken_woodman
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- #66
If you got all that landing and he drops then you don't need slam. But slam is another option. It's on a different timer to the snare. There is no reason why you shouldn't have slam. That's the whole point.
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Ialkarn
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- #67
A sucky 1h spec.
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Ialkarn
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- #68
In your opinion if beserkers had shield spec access they should go for slam?
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bracken_woodman
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- #69
Based on what? 39+ items/rr takes you over 50...that's the key to maintaining a reasonable spec in 1h terms.
As for berserkers I have no clue...never played one
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Ialkarn
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- #70
for the same reason ppl spec 50 2h/ pole
more ws, higher cap,more damage.
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stighelmer
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- #71
going from 39->50 + items/rr in damage type gives you a little less variation when using pole/2h but quite alot more weaponskill when using 1h (and as a thrust arms your 1h ws is pretty shitty to start with)
The weaponskill is ofc needed to land your 1h hits. But it has been shown (cannot seem to find the thread) that it does also affect your ability to hit with shield...
Hence a too low weaponskill (like 30-summin would be imo) would make it hard to land slam when needed. I would rather trust to use my pole styles where my weapon skill is maxed.
edit: I wonder Ialkarn, what 1h thrust styles you use most often and when? (Im gonna respec to thrust from slash
)
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bracken_woodman
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- #72
The increase in damage on 1h at say 61 (50+11) is insignificant compared to 1h at 50 (39+11). Given the situations when you would be using 1h (and given that those situations are not primarily about damage) it's certainly not enough for you to still maintain that the hybrid spec is not valid.
Guess we're just not going to agree
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stighelmer
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- #73
Originally posted by bracken_woodman
The increase in damage on 1h at say 61 (50+11) is insignificant compared to 1h at 50 (39+11). Given the situations when you would be using 1h (and given that those situations are not primarily about damage) it's certainly not enough for you to still maintain that the hybrid spec is not valid.
weaponskill != damage per hit
its the chance you have to hit at all.
pretty important
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bracken_woodman
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- #74
39+11+rr gets you over 50. That's the important bit. Providing you get over that then you wont have a problem landing slam. I never did. Below that and yes I agree.
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bracken_woodman
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- #75
Originally posted by stighelmer
weaponskill != damage per hit
its the chance you have to hit at all.
pretty important
see above (I cant do those multiple quoting things
)Above 50 total and you are fine - I mentioned damage because chance to hit over that level with your shield would barely rate on the scale, so the only possible argument then is about damage.
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stighelmer
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- #76
Yes, but more WS is better. If you do not feel the need for slam in RvR then getting it at the cost of less WS (and damage) when using 1h and a small but still existing difference in damage output when using pole would not make sense.
But as you pointed out, it's all about how you choose to play. But I like the constructive discussion
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stighelmer
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- #77
Oh and btw, I am off to bed now.
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bracken_woodman
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- #78
Originally posted by stighelmer
Yes, but more WS is better. If you do not feel the need for slam in RvR then getting it at the cost of less WS (and damage) when using 1h and a small but still existing difference in damage output when using pole would not make sense.
But as you pointed out, it's all about how you choose to play. But I like the constructive discussion
Yeah good discussion waiting at atk for a group
Like I say, I'm not saying hybrid is the best spec - heck I dont have it anymore. But I am saying that played right there is no reason not to spec it. It is a different way of playing (as I'm sure you know) but given time and used according to the group and situation you are in it can be highly effective. It's just a shame that people don't give it a fair crack of the whip.
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bracken_woodman
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- #79
Originally posted by stighelmer
Oh and btw, I am off to bed now.
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Ialkarn
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- #80
Ok let's put it in this way:
You see some benefits,I 'm saying those benefits exist only on the paper.
I 'm also saying the price to pay isn't so cheap,a lower 1h spec affect your char performance .
You talking about flexibility,I think 23 shield make you as flexible as a 42 shield specced tank.
p.s. as you are specced 2h whit no slam I m specced 50 thrust and 9 shield only,but that dosen't make me biased considering the 23 shield spec less effective (it's actually the shield spec I consider better),if I had a reason to think 42 shield "teh spec" I would get it immediatly.
You see some benefits,I 'm saying those benefits exist only on the paper.
I 'm also saying the price to pay isn't so cheap,a lower 1h spec affect your char performance .
You talking about flexibility,I think 23 shield make you as flexible as a 42 shield specced tank.
p.s. as you are specced 2h whit no slam I m specced 50 thrust and 9 shield only,but that dosen't make me biased considering the 23 shield spec less effective (it's actually the shield spec I consider better),if I had a reason to think 42 shield "teh spec" I would get it immediatly.
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Puppetmistress
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- #81
To prevent the target from using MOC/insta's ?
Or say a warrior is guarding your target (healer for instance). Instead of wasting alot of time bypassing the warrior his 50+17+MoB3 shield defense guard you could switch to S/S, run behind him and give him a slam.
Slammed warriors dont guard very good
Im not very experienced with armsman, but from what I understand in the discussion the only thing you loose is abit lower weaponskill when using 1h.
So exchange abit lower weaponskill in 1h weapon (while your primary way of dealing damage is 2H as you said before) for an anytime 9 second stun..
Ah well, Im no expert, but 9 sec anytime stun = very good imo.
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Ialkarn
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- #82
Originally posted by Puppetmistress
To prevent the target from using MOC/insta's ?
Or say a warrior is guarding your target (healer for instance). Instead of wasting alot of time bypassing the warrior his 50+17+MoB3 shield defense guard you could switch to S/S, run behind him and give him a slam.
Slammed warriors dont guard very good
Im not very experienced with armsman, but from what I understand in the discussion the only thing you loose is abit lower weaponskill when using 1h.
So exchange abit lower weaponskill in 1h weapon (while your primary way of dealing damage is 2H as you said before) for an anytime 9 second stun..
Ah well, Im no expert, but 9 sec anytime stun = very good imo.
Yes its one of those moments where slam is helpfull,but a good caster uses moc only when purge is up.
also ias warrior you are going to save purge for melee stun only (or root in rare cases) ,like every determination tank.
and a good assisting groups can drop pretty fast everything,timers or not.
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stighelmer
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- #83
Originally posted by Puppetmistress
To prevent the target from using MOC/insta's ?
Or say a warrior is guarding your target (healer for instance). Instead of wasting alot of time bypassing the warrior his 50+17+MoB3 shield defense guard you could switch to S/S, run behind him and give him a slam.
Slammed warriors dont guard very good
wot he said.
I am currently 50/50/23/17. I use back stun like 1-2 times per night and that is basically the amount of times I felt the need to use slam when I was hybrid spec.
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stighelmer
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- #84
ph, and good morning
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bracken_woodman
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- #85
See I like that spec too. When I get my grubby hands on a respec stone to go thrust, I'm looking at that spec as an option.
Oh and good morning too
Can't stay long - I'm off to the footy in a few (Up the Villa and all that...)
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araan
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- #86
im presently 50 pole (vital) 37 slash (was tired when i respecced) 42 shield 13 parry , want to go thrust but thats a minor point
i love this spec, now admittedly i do solo a fair bit but i still find that the flexibilty of this spec far outweighs any disadvantages in terms or relatively minimal decrease in dmg and WS, (Used to be full pole/slash btw) even in grps having the slam is very useful despite what alot of ppl say, and puppetmisstres gives a good scenario, also the guard+ engage is useful in situations. what i would say though is it will be interesting to see how full pole functions independently after the style review....
i love this spec, now admittedly i do solo a fair bit but i still find that the flexibilty of this spec far outweighs any disadvantages in terms or relatively minimal decrease in dmg and WS, (Used to be full pole/slash btw) even in grps having the slam is very useful despite what alot of ppl say, and puppetmisstres gives a good scenario, also the guard+ engage is useful in situations. what i would say though is it will be interesting to see how full pole functions independently after the style review....
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gunner440
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- #87
rofl
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Puppetmistress
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- #88
Wrong. Purge is low on the RA list for a druid because he has Grouppurge, MOC, RP, MCL2 etc etc as essentials too.
Most druids I know (unless very high RR) only got GP and no Personal Purge. Now suddenly a druid can go MOC where he has no personal purge (up).
For instance my druid is 6L1 and he dont have personal purge. Costs for RA's are so expensive, either go Grouppurge --> Purge or Grouppurge --> MOC route and then the traject from MOC --> Personal Purge is pretty high too.
Also alot of younger PBAoE' ers do have MOC but no Purge because they rely more on GP. Pretty common to find PBAoE' ers to have MOC at RR3 and no Purge in Hibernia
True, but what if he used his Purge before and its down?
You cannot focus on RA's all the time, I think an anytime 9 sec stun is not bad to have.
If you want to sacrifice WS for it is personal preference ofcourse, but to do slam off as 'not needed' I think is a bit wrong.
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stighelmer
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- #89
With the 50/50/23/17(21 if you autotrained), you have access to back stun (6 sec from behind shield style, no prerequisite style).
No lower WS or damage and still ability to insta stun. As close to the best of both worlds as you come imo
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Asha
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- #90
You're the one who brought up MoC, but it's not ok to talk about purge? Come on... it's the same thing you can't say: spec this way to combat MoC/instants, but then when someone says a good caster will have purge up (and sorry but a good -caster- is going to have purge up when then MoC, maybe not a druid but just about all else) you say you can't focus on RAs? Can't have it both ways