hybrid arms spec

[onesmegger]

Hi getting near the place - low to mid fourties where I have to make final decision on speccing.

So far - slash for damage and polearm sword n shield.

However on pondering final level of speccing it seems I may have a choice - unless of course you lot know better - - -
my 2 thoughts so far verging between
>> 44 pole, 44 slash - max damage on both weapons
>> 35 shield most of the positional slams for a stun
>> 26 parry for a reasonable chance when fighting and
>> 6 the crappy bits left in crossbow

or alternatively ( and maybe more traditionnaly )
>> 42 shield for that frontal slam ( if we got a pally in the group)
>> 39 / 44 polearm or slash - not sure which way round
>> 23 parry and
>> 7 crossbow

again I note that after determination + purge stuff like master of blocking can help but - please - any thoughts from pure pole, sword n board and hybrids on how their spec works - and how it differs.
Apart form the fotm mercs ( lol ) I feel Albion at the moment is showing a slight shortage in places of the heavy armoured big hitters in RvR and would like a toon that offers some way of filling this gap - mebbe not main assist in RvR but able to come in with a big pole hit or two for teh kill !

cheers all

 

[Moza]

go full pole, thrust

 

[Madonion Slicer]

Personally i went

50 Pole
50 Slash
23 Sheild
17 Parry

Now i would class that as full pole but with 23 sheild i have pretty damn good blocking when needed and rear positional stun for the fleeing enemys.

Not everyones cup of tea but i like it.

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Madonion Slicer
Personally i went

50 Pole
50 Slash
23 Sheild
17 Parry

Now i would class that as full pole but with 23 sheild i have pretty damn good blocking when needed and rear positional stun for the fleeing enemys.

Not everyones cup of tea but i like it.

It is my cup of tea

 

[bracken_woodman]

No point going hybrid unless you a) Max your weapon spec and b) get slam.

So it's

50 Pole / Two-handed
42 Shield
39 Slash/Thrust

rest in parry.

You must maximise the weapon spec - it's the key to doing effective damage in rvr. And without slam, well you might aswell not bother - it's the key to what defines the hybrid. Finally, remember to make sure you get your slash/thrust over 50 with items (so get the +11 with sc).

Get all that sorted, along with a decent couple of qbars and you're ready to rock.

(Oh and don't forget - use a small shield when on offense, large shield if you have been given guarding duty )

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Madonion Slicer
Personally i went

50 Pole
50 Slash
23 Sheild
17 Parry

Now i would class that as full pole but with 23 sheild i have pretty damn good blocking when needed and rear positional stun for the fleeing enemys.

Not everyones cup of tea but i like it.

Might be a perfectly valid spec but I wouldn't class it as a hybrid spec...for me the hybrid has 42 shield. It's the slam which really defines it

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
50 Pole / Two-handed
42 Shield
39 Slash/Thrust

rest in parry.

was my previous spec but wanted to make sure I minimized my damage variance and got my WS up for those rare times I use 1h.

I do not miss slam alot, most times I can replace it with back stun (23 shield).

New spec makes me a poorer guard bot, but I am no pally anyways...

edit: And if u go hybrid (42 shield) for the love of god go slash

 

[Khalen]

If you group a lot go full pole (50) + full damage style (50)
If you solo more go hybrid specc imo with 42 shield at least

 

[hotrat]

Well Galaha respecced his arms from 50 crush, 50 2 hand to 32+18crush and 50 2 hand, exactly the same damage cap and no variation either (cus he has 50 effective crush).

 

[stighelmer]

No variation?

I guess u mean no increased variation, or ?

And also, how was that concluded? Comparing logs? Gut feeling? Hitting a mob?

I am curious

 

[Silenzio]

Originally posted by onesmegger

or alternatively ( and maybe more traditionnaly )
>> 42 shield for that frontal slam ( if we got a pally in the group)
>> 39 / 44 polearm or slash - not sure which way round
>> 23 parry and
>> 7 crossbow

*cough*

kinda nightmare...

50 pole ALLWAYS
42 shield (maybe someone didnt understant u talkin bout hybrid)
30+ Thrust ( 39+11 from item = 50)
parry rest
we we rest for xbow...

dont know if u autotrained or not...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
No variation?

I guess u mean no increased variation, or ?

And also, how was that concluded? Comparing logs? Gut feeling? Hitting a mob?

I am curious

The difference from 32+18 crush/thrust/slash to 50+18 crush/thrust/slash (using a polearm/2h) is around 3% average damage.

That's an awful lot of specpoints to spend to gain 3% damage.

Instead you could put them into shield and/or parry...

Or you could spec up a second damage type and gain much more than that 3% back purely from armour vulnerability tables.

 

[K0nah]

the way base dmg spec is used by 2h/pole means there is NO reason not to go hybrid. took a while to convince galaha he wouldn't lose dmg (if the tests were true) but he loves his new spec and still hits for 7-800+

if your a shield-0-phobiac go 50pole/2h 50total weapon(with sc/rr) rest parry (mid 40s parry) u can't lose.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by K0nah
the way base dmg spec is used by 2h/pole means there is NO reason not to go hybrid. took a while to convince galaha he wouldnt lose dmg (if the tests were true) but he loves his new spec and still hits for 7-800+

if your a shield-0-phobiac go 50pole/2h 50total weapon(with sc/rr) rest parry (mid 40s parry) u can't lose.

50 pole/2h 50 total weapon will be tough before RR9

And at RR10 he can respec to 50 2h, 30slash, 30thrust, 42 shield, 7 parry. (Assuming he was always crush-specced)

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Pin
The difference from 32+18 crush/thrust/slash to 50+18 crush/thrust/slash (using a polearm/2h) is around 3% average damage.

That's an awful lot of specpoints to spend to gain 3% damage.

Instead you could put them into shield and/or parry...

Or you could spec up a second damage type and gain much more than that 3% back purely from armour vulnerability tables.

True... true... But ofc it all comes down to what you use your toon for.

Speccing in a second damage type could ofc be done. But SC kit cannot support +11 to a second one and then you would be left with 1 damage type that is more gimped or two gimped ones. And shifting 2h/pole depending on target... *phew*

On another note. I am thinking of shifting from slash to thrust... Pin, you wouldn't happen to know how much the difference in damage is between slash pole and thrust pole on norse chain ?

 

[K0nah]

Originally posted by Pin
50 pole/2h 50 total weapon will be tough before RR9

50pole/2h mean 50pole OR 50 2h duh.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by stighelmer

edit: And if u go hybrid (42 shield) for the love of god go slash

Why? In the majority of rvr situations when you're out to do damage you're going to be using your main weap (i.e. pole / 2H). Therefore you want to pick a damage type that will give you the best versus the majority of enemy you meet. Tbh I would say the only reason to specifically go slash would be if you pve alot and then you may want amethyst slash if you have your shield out against mobs. But for rvr it should be based on which damage type will give you the most benefit. At the end of the day though I would always say its more about picking a style that you enjoy...wanna wield a big axe then go slash, like the look of the war pick go thrust and so on

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by stighelmer
Pin, you wouldn't happen to know how much the difference in damage is between slash pole and thrust pole on norse chain ?

Of course he does

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
True... true... But ofc it all comes down to what you use your toon for.

Speccing in a second damage type could ofc be done. But SC kit cannot support +11 to a second one and then you would be left with 1 damage type that is more gimped or two gimped ones.

Actually it can.

Originally posted by stighelmer
And shifting 2h/pole depending on target... *phew*

It's not really that hard to swap a weapon in your inventory between targets. Sure, it can't be hot-keyed, but I used to do this all the time with my Infiltrator to drop extra poisons.

Originally posted by stighelmer
On another note. I am thinking of shifting from slash to thrust... Pin, you wouldn't happen to know how much the difference in damage is between slash pole and thrust pole on norse chain ?

Assuming the guy has 26% resists on his gear, you'll do 31% more damage on norse chain with thrust vs slash.

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
Tbh I would say the only reason to specifically go slash would be if you pve alot and then you may want amethyst slash if you have your shield out against mobs.

I totally agree. But I also happen to think that the only time you really have use for a hybrid spec is when you PvE. Or the VERY rare occasions you happen to be in a RvR group w/o a pala - and then u pretty much fooked anyways (and hopefully waiting at atk).

And all the time u spend as a 1h/shield arms with thrust as weapon style will be like mastrubating with a cheese grinder*








* slightly amusing but mostly painful.

 

[K0nah]

Originally posted by stighelmer
On another note. I am thinking of shifting from slash to thrust... Pin, you wouldn't happen to know how much the difference in damage is between slash pole and thrust pole on norse chain ?

slash -10%

thrust +10%

netgain +20% compared to slash

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Pin
Actually it can.

Without dropping any resists/stats ?

Kewl.

Guessing it involves shitloads of MPs though.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
I totally agree. But I also happen to think that the only time you really have use for a hybrid spec is when you PvE. Or the VERY rare occasions you happen to be in a RvR group w/o a pala - and then u pretty much fooked anyways (and hopefully waiting at atk).

Having the option of a 9sec anytime stun is errr... kinda useful in RvR.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by K0nah
slash -10%

thrust +10%

netgain +20% compared to slash

netgain isn't 20% though


[damage with thrust] / [damage with slash] = [gain in damage]


If they had 0% slash resist and 0% thrust resist you'd get

[1.1] / [0.9] = [1.22] = 22% damage difference.

With 26% slash and 26% thrust you'd get

[0.84] / [0.64] = [1.31] = 31% damage difference.

(with racial modifiers the difference is typically even higher)

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
Without dropping any resists/stats ?

Kewl.

Guessing it involves shitloads of MPs though.

Well, firstly why would it matter if an Armsman dropped a few % cold resist, or a couple of points in Parry? You don't NEED to cap out on everything anyway, it's pure vanity


But yes you can do it. Just start with +6 Thrust on a thrust pole and +6 Slash on a slash pole. You then only need to put +5 of each elsewhere.


And it becomes even easier in 1.64 when items drop with +Melee instead of +Slash, etc. (Sidi or Dragon).

 

[yurka_polearm]

most the test on VN boards been carried out on ppl sitting or milegates etc

so that way aslong as you have specced 50 pole/2hd your gunna hit cap pretty much all the time ( on greys and sitting targets).

which shows nothing for bottom end dmg and variance

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Pin
Having the option of a 9sec anytime stun is errr... kinda useful in RvR.

This is all a matter of opinion. I was formerly a strong advocate for the hybrid spec also in RvR but I have changed my mind.

I was 50/42/39/xx but it turned out I used slam very seldom (and landing it even more seldom). Protecting casters is a pala job and when chasing shammys/healers I never got to land it anyways... And with my new spec, if really want to stun them I use back stun and in 1.65 the Defenders Revenge with a 9 sec stun will be moved to the Phalanx chain.

I prefer to ensure that I deal the most damage possible with every hit, even if it costs alot. Only real loss is slam and at least for me that is ok.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by yurka_polearm
most the test on VN boards been carried out on ppl sitting or milegates etc

so that way aslong as you have specced 50 pole/2hd your gunna hit cap pretty much all the time ( on greys and sitting targets).

which shows nothing for bottom end dmg and variance

yup. and I ignore 'most tests on VN boards', and it's very obvious which tests give valid data or not.


But if you don't believe it, and still think your full-pole spec is 100% needed, it would be very simple to run these tests for 15 minutes each, parse the data and check for yourself (and only requires the use of 1 single-line respec).


1) beat someone up with 65/65 (e.g. if you are RR5)
2) respec your damage type down (probably to 12) and beat someone up with 65/27
3) spec up damage type to 35 and beat someone up with 65/50

parse the data, look at your average damages and decide whether it's in your interest to spec back up to 65/65 or not

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
I prefer to ensure that I deal the most damage possible with every hit, even if it costs alot.

If you wanted to deal the most damage possible on every hit and don't care about Slam or guarding or your own defense, then stacking armour tables in your favour is much more important than going from 35+15 to 50+15 damage-type.

 

[Puppetmistress]

I dont understand why someone would exchange the ability for an anytime 9 sec stun for 3% more damage on pole.

The utility of shield, slam and guard > 3 % more avg. damage in my eyes.

Protecting a caster is paladins job? Hmrpfh, I think it's very good utility you got a 2nd guarder available if needed.

The ability to slam your target and allowing the other tanks besides yourselves to pull off positionals will INCREASE damage in the end instead of lowering it with 3%.