hybrid arms spec

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Pin
If you wanted to deal the most damage possible on every hit and don't care about Slam or guarding or your own defense, then stacking armour tables in your favour is much more important than going from 35+15 to 50+15 damage-type.

yep. thinking of thrust coz i tend to hit norse chain alot. might try to do the damage tests once i respec.

however, when it comes to stacking armor tables i draw the line at shifting weapons mid fight and nerfing my resists

 

[yurka_polearm]

someoen give me a couple of respecs ill do it ;p

and with that, i saw some stuff about growth rates for sun and moon goining into about 0.90s+ (Aegis is 0.92), in 1.65

but that again was on VN boards, so taken with a pince of salt =/

anyone got the growth rates? for 1.65

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
I dont understand why someone would exchange the ability for an anytime 9 sec stun for 3% more damage on pole.

The utility of shield, slam and guard > 3 % more avg. damage in my eyes.

Protecting a caster is paladins job? Hmrpfh, I think it's very good utility you got a 2nd guarder available if needed.

The ability to slam your target and allowing the other tanks besides yourselves to pull off positionals will INCREASE damage in the end instead of lowering it with 3%.

Well as I said...

I have tried both hybrid with 42 shield (slam) and pole spec with 23 shield (back stun).

I like my current spec better.

However, if I see hard evidence (proper tests by myself or anyone else) that the difference in damage really is 3% then I might change.

 

[yurka_polearm]

ive had 42 shield and now 23 shield and full pole and prefer it , though i do miss having slam and high block rate

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
however, when it comes to stacking armor tables i draw the line at shifting weapons mid fight and nerfing my resists

As I said, it's just an option.

Archers have to do the same thing for different damage types of arrows.
Assassins have to do the same to drop additional poisons on targets.
Freaky split-spec Mercs/BMs do the same thing with shield/offhand weapon.

Anyway, it's not like you would be switching frequently - probably only a couple of times in an 8v8 (from experience of when I switch slash-crush).

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Pin
netgain isn't 20% though


[damage with thrust] / [damage with slash] = [gain in damage]


If they had 0% slash resist and 0% thrust resist you'd get

[1.1] / [0.9] = [1.22] = 22% damage difference.

With 26% slash and 26% thrust you'd get

[0.84] / [0.64] = [1.31] = 31% damage difference.

(with racial modifiers the difference is typically even higher)

That's beautiful.

*wipes a tear from his eye*.

A genuine Pin classic

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
No point going hybrid unless you a) Max your weapon spec and b) get slam.

So it's

50 Pole / Two-handed
42 Shield
39 Slash/Thrust

rest in parry.

You must maximise the weapon spec - it's the key to doing effective damage in rvr. And without slam, well you might aswell not bother - it's the key to what defines the hybrid. Finally, remember to make sure you get your slash/thrust over 50 with items (so get the +11 with sc).

Get all that sorted, along with a decent couple of qbars and you're ready to rock.

(Oh and don't forget - use a small shield when on offense, large shield if you have been given guarding duty )

:wub: :wub: :great:


gogo train those new breed of armsmen !

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by stighelmer
Well as I said...

I have tried both hybrid with 42 shield (slam) and pole spec with 23 shield (back stun).

I like my current spec better.

However, if I see hard evidence (proper tests by myself or anyone else) that the difference in damage really is 3% then I might change.

Really depends how you use it I guess. When I was hybrid specced (which was basically between R5L2 and R6L8) I used the slam constantly as an offensive tool. Slam, switch to 2H and so on. This is without mentioning the defensive possibilities. I'm actually surprised fewer people have it. The only reason I went to full 2H was basically because I'd never played that before (having been s/s up to R5L2) and wanted to try it out. I'm considering switching back to hybrid. The key issue is about damage - and I really think that once people cotton on to the fact that the damage variance at 50/50 is little better than at 50/42/39 (assuming you get damage spec to 50 with items/rr) then I'm fairly sure hybrids will become more common.

Just a note on damage. My current spec is 50+17 two-handed and 50+17 slash, rest parry. I still get a variance of approximately 25% . As a hybrid I was getting slightly more variance, a few percent I would say. The maximum damage I was doing was identical. (Sadly I dont have the tests to back this up - its just from observation). It's really then just down to personal preference. In terms of effectiveness there is no reason not to choose the slam hybrid. In fact there is a good case that it gives higher overall utility with virtually no loss in damage. It's just about whether someone wants a little more work switching weapons / qbars and whether they actually like the concept.

 

[Ialkarn]

Unless you solo I don't really see the point to spec for pole/slam as armsman (then again your ws would sux whit 1h),
especially when they giving us a stun style.
About the low 1h spec,I use 1h like 30% of the time I would feel really handicapped whitout a decent spec,was specced 44 thrust I respecced 50 and for my combat style its a big boost,considering I sacrified only points in parry.

Whit a perfect assisting in your group,the last thing you miss it's slam (prevent flight make the difference,since it's chainable);someone talked about 3% of difference,I don't know if it's less or more,but I beleave in roles precises inside the group so if I have an offensive role I wanna boost it as much as I can.
About the guard thing:
if you pick 2 rr10 armsmen one specced 23 shield and one 42 whit capped shield,
since they have both guard 3 what kinda of difference in block %?
5%?cosidering you got already a paly for that..I don't see the point really.

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
Unless you solo I don't really see the point to spec for pole/slam as armsman (then again your ws would sux whit 1h),
especially when they giving us a stun style.
About the low 1h spec,I use 1h like 30% of the time I would feel really handicapped whitout a decent spec,was specced 44 thrust I respecced 50 and for my combat style its a big boost,considering I sacrified only points in parry.

Whit a perfect assisting in your group,the last thing you miss it's slam (prevent flight make the difference,since it's chainable);someone talked about 3% of difference,I don't know if it's less or more,but I beleave in roles precises inside the group so if I have an offensive role I wanna boost it as much as I can.

To boost it as much as you can you should use this spec then

Originally posted by Pin
...And at RR10 he can respec to 50 2h, 30slash, 30thrust, 42 shield, 7 parry. (Assuming he was always crush-specced)

Like Pin said you gain very little from going 50 pole/2h AND 50 weapon, far better to spec for both damage types and get a 31% increase If I ever made an arms I would definately use this spec, I would start 50 pole, 39 thrust. 42 shield then at rr5 prolly respec to 50 30 30 42

Originally posted by stighelmer
....Protecting casters is a pala job.....

Paladin is no doubt good at guarding, but often needed for end regen with the other tanks rather than guarding a caster. Having a second guarder in the group is very nice indeed.

 

[vindicat0r]

I tested it on a standing target for 500 Swing's, with Differect Test's every 100 swing's. Then I ran the Data Through a Parser which Pin gave me.

THe most important result's wer the 1st and the last test imo anyway.

WIth my 44 Base slash < + itamz and RR> it was 130.9 avg dmg

With 36 Thrust < + itamz And RR > it was 131.1 avg dmg.
< There was a diff in + thrust as I was in Thrust SC, I had +2 Thrust more than Slash :x>


With the other test's they all lead to this same answer. You get very little benefit from speccing over 50 in your base weapon, after 50 its .2% bonus to weapon and before 50 its .8-1% bonus so once you get to 50 with RR + itamz you are sorted.

If I was able I would choose the Spec out-lined above by pin, Dealing x2 damage Types and still Keeping Shield Spec < FORGET SLAM ITS DEFENSE> is amazing and something I really really missed when I was Full Pole.

Personally I would go 30 Thrust 30 Crush but I can see why Slash / thrust would be better ^^

I have log's of all of this in the form of text doc's which I ran through this Parser if u want them pm me and I will send them to you with the parser Link + you should do some test's your self

So all you arms out there, Go Hybrid baby !!

Or at least test it your self before u knock it ^^

 

[Ialkarn]

It's funny to see how everyone have a good experience whit an armsman think the slam/2h-pole spec sux,
and the rest (ppl who dosen't play armsmen or lack of a certain experience whit armsmen) supports the hibrid cause.

Aniway I give up

 

[sigh]

If it makes any difference Ialk, If i made an armans I would make it 50/50. xDDD

not everyone plays a perfectly assisting group tho

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
It's funny to see how everyone have a good experience whit an armsman think the slam/2h-pole spec sux,
and the rest (ppl who dosen't play armsmen or lack of a certain experience whit armsmen) supports the hibrid cause.

Aniway I give up

Agree with Ialkarn here.

I argued quite alot with Gunz while he was still in GoL about the hybrid issue. Based on his experience with both hybrid and 2h spec he argued the hybrid spec was inferior in terms of group RvR. I did not believe him.

Having tried the full pole spec since a couple of months I honestly have not looked back. I like it alot more than my hybrid spec. Damage output with my pole is my prime objective.

Sure the 50/30/30 could be a good thing. But atm I feel it is too much of a hastle.

 

[Silenzio]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
It's funny to see how everyone have a good experience whit an armsman think the slam/2h-pole spec sux,
and the rest (ppl who dosen't play armsmen or lack of a certain experience whit armsmen) supports the hibrid cause.

Aniway I give up

mmm in truth i see only 2 ppl stateing pole/2h + slam sux...

and a third one is unsure ...


btw...

thers not much difference beteween 39+ thrust or 44+ thrust
as ur specced as far as i know...

been hybrid specc give more tool with barely no loss...

and saying slam is paladin job or, other char r supposed to defend
is totaly wrong...
yess this could apply to you and few other wich run only in "fixed" "well known" group...

but face this... you are a minority... at every port tons ov ppl are looking for group
sometimes a well known friend sometimes a good encounter
others ... just a rp whore wich rush n doom all the other 7 ppl

cant remember how manytimes all the paladin in group were dead allready rushing the enemy instead ov guarding or slam asisting... relay completly on someone u dont know is somthignwrong to me...

can be for stopping thos permaspting healer
or to prevent the pbaoe box...

or even to save ur supportes...
not only stunning but better guarding ability


switch->slam->switch-> wack or what ever... doin this the first swing ov the pole will be even bit faster


btw its your and others idea... yours play style... good to me...

what i wonder since u talking about experienced armsman is
if you ever tried to run in random group or solo for a month...

have you tried this experience?

've good day

 

[hotrat]

True Ialkarn I don't play an arms and the only experience I have with melee damage is my minstrel.

However I cannot beleive you do not agree that a spec like
50 2hand/pole
35 thrust
35 slash
rest shield and parry

would do more damage than a 50/50 spec on average against hibs and mids.

If I ever made an arms I would definately spec for 2 damage types, slam aint so important, maybe though when you hit very high rr and can go 50 30 30.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by vindicat0r
Personally I would go 30 Thrust 30 Crush but I can see why Slash / thrust would be better ^^

I'll point out (as it wasn't clear from what I said before) that a spec of 50, 30, 30, 42, 7 requires full autotrain of both Slash and Thrust, and you cannot get this spec if you choose Crush as a damage type.

Therefore, if Galaha has always been Crush-specced, he'd have that option available to him.


And yes, I cannot see why anyone would not go some sort of 'Hybrid' spec. That hybrid could be a Shield + Pole/2h spec to have the option of Slam or defense for very little cost to your damage. Or it could be a dual damage-type hybrid to (greatly) increase your damage to a wider range of targets.

Never facing an armour penalty is a huge boost - as I said above:

Going from resistant to vulnerable makes 31% difference to your damage output.
Going from resistant to neutral makes 16% difference.
Going from neutral to vulnerable makes 14% difference.


So, going from 50 pole 50 thrust, to 50 pole 35 slash 35 thrust you could:

Lose 3% damage on norse chain, cloth, hib leather and reinforced.
Gain 27% damage on norse leather and norse studded.
Gain 10% damage on scale.

(or go thrust/crush for a different set)

I've seen Armsmen complain about Hib LW having the advantage of choosing damage types at no extra cost - well so can Armsmen, and can choose whichever 2 types they like for a minimal cost.

 

[Silenzio]

still need rr for that

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by Pin
Lose 3% damage

This is the core of the discussion.

I have not seen hard evidence that this is true. Only seen milegate hitting and the like.

When I go from slash to thrust, probably around 1.63, I'll do the following test:

On a sitting chain wearer (since my main target are Norse Chain) hit unstyled for 10 mins each with everything else equal (on target and myself):

50+16 pole / 0 + 16 thrust
50+16 pole / 20 + 16 thrust
50+16 pole / 34 + 16 thrust
50+16 pole / 40 + 16 thrust
50+16 pole / 45 + 16 thrust
50+16 pole / 50 + 16 thrust

Log all this and do the necessary analysis - I'll share the data aswell ofc

Depending on the outcome I might change my opinion

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
I have not seen hard evidence that this is true. Only seen milegate hitting and the like.

http://billb3rt.homestead.com/files/1crush.txt
http://billb3rt.homestead.com/files/36crush.txt
http://billb3rt.homestead.com/files/50crush.txt

@@[Chat] Shaftbert: "Target is lvl 50 druid wearing 102 AF / 100 Qual, 100% cond Scale Armor."

1+15 Crush: 213 attacks averaging 147.5 damage per attack
36+15 Crush: 169 attacks averaging 189.5 damage per attack
50+15 Crush: 174 attacks averaging 193.7 damage per attack

going from 1+15 -> 36+15 was 28.5% increase in damage (or ~0.8% average increase per point)
going from 36+15 -> 50+15 was 2.2% increase in damage (or ~0.16% average increase per point)


As you see, I was being a little over-generous with my 3% approximation. And I expect that the 'increase per point' is not a sharp change at 50 total spec, but more a smooth curve of diminished returns (for those who would say that there is a large difference between 49 and 50 total spec, for example).

 

[stighelmer]

Thanks for that Pin.

edit: nothing new to add really. I am gonna digest this bit of info before I respec

 

[gunner440]

death to hybrids !

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by Pin
36+15 Crush: 169 attacks averaging 189.5 damage per attack
50+15 Crush: 174 attacks averaging 193.7 damage per attack[/B]

Just highlighting this it really shows there is no point going 50/50.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
It's funny to see how everyone have a good experience whit an armsman think the slam/2h-pole spec sux,
and the rest (ppl who dosen't play armsmen or lack of a certain experience whit armsmen) supports the hibrid cause.

Aniway I give up

RR7..and I think 2H hybrid is excellent if played correctly. Was that spec from R5L2 up to R6L8, which is a fair crack of the whip.I tend to think people who knock that spec just haven't played it properly if at all. As for the pole hybrid that I don't know as I haven't played it. I'm not convinced that it would be any different in principle - but I can't really say on that. I hope you don't now have to be RR8+ or in one of the main rvr guilds to have a valid opinion...

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by hotrat
True Ialkarn I don't play an arms and the only experience I have with melee damage is my minstrel.

However I cannot beleive you do not agree that a spec like
50 2hand/pole
35 thrust
35 slash
rest shield and parry

would do more damage than a 50/50 spec on average against hibs and mids.

If I ever made an arms I would definately spec for 2 damage types, slam aint so important, maybe though when you hit very high rr and can go 50 30 30.

Well I admit this spec it's more interesting,but I 'm not sure what it's the real benefit of that,since thrust offer the best damage against mids supports already and hib supports are neutral to thrust.
Also depend what you do whit your 1h spec:
I personally play whit 1h aloot and I wouldn't feel well whit 35 in a 1h line,but I also play +0 quickness thing it make 1h more important.

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
RR7..and I think 2H hybrid is excellent if played correctly. Was that spec from R5L2 up to R6L8, which is a fair crack of the whip.I tend to think people who knock that spec just haven't played it properly if at all. As for the pole hybrid that I don't know as I haven't played it. I'm not convinced that it would be any different in principle - but I can't really say on that. I hope you don't now have to be RR8+ or in one of the main rvr guilds to have a valid opinion...

I 'm sorry but considering 2h got 3 stun chains ( a 6 sec stun on follow up to anytime) I really I don't see the point to spec hibrid.

Whit prevent flight and capped quickness it really give slam no chances.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
I 'm sorry but considering 2h got 3 stun chains ( a 6 sec stun on follow up to anytime) I really I don't see the point to spec hibrid.

Whit prevent flight and capped quickness it really give slam no chances.

Well the slam is what you start off with. With a hybrid MA it gives your 3 tanks 9 seconds straight up on the target...they arent going anywhere unless they got purge, and its not dependant on you landing both parts of the chain.

Look, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying hybrid is the best spec. But I am saying it is really underestimated. I think that if half the people who knock it really tried it out, built tactics around it and played it in a way that makes the most of its potential they would see the benefits of it. The funny thing is I'm not even a hybrid myself anymore (purely because I wanted to try pure 2H). I'm defending it because I gave it a good run and understand what an under-rated spec it is.

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
Look, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying hybrid is the best spec. But I am saying it is really underestimated. I think that if half the people who knock it really tried it out, built tactics around it and played it in a way that makes the most of its potential they would see the benefits of it.

I see aloot of hibrid armsmen around
I think they are more common than pure specced,btw I rarely see them switch weapons.

Ofc if you have to engage a target alone slam gonna help aloot,but you are supposed to fight in a team where ppl try to assist eachother so everyone should be specced to cover their role at best.

Mid groups dosen't use stun as offence (unless we consider the poor 2 sec h2h stun ).

Since you are supposed to play offensive you are far from your supports and wont be able to guard them faster than the pali of the group,if any tank beside you getting seriously hitted it mean you fighting noobs and your clerics gonna supply at it.
I really don't see all this hibrid spec potential.

Well the only case when have a slam at offence can be usefull it's when a shield tank come to cover a support and slam the tanks on him,then whit a slam spec you could intercept him half way.
but once again... a good determination tank save purge ONLY for slam so you should have it up (or the warrior you are going to slam should have it up).

But also whit an hibrid spec your chances to to slam sucefully are aloot lower than 50/50 shield armsman even of a pally if your 1h spec isn't high enought,I would thrust aloot more a 2h stun on second style whit full 2h than a slam whit 42 shield/ 30-35-39 1h spec

aniway my conclusion is..armsmen are gimped chars they are broke,they dosen't work well,it's not a question of spec really

If you wanna roll a tank do a merc.

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
Well the slam is what you start off with. With a hybrid MA it gives your 3 tanks 9 seconds straight up on the target...they arent going anywhere unless they got purge, and its not dependant on you landing both parts of the chain.

You should try that: 1 pole armsman and 2 mercs:
mercs prevent flight specced,the armsman open whit crippling blow (snare effect,anytime style),your target got snared 100% of the times even if you are disseased he is fucked,why you should need slam?

 

[gunner440]

im full spec and i use 1h about hum 40% of the time and having low dmg type skill would prolly suck +(