hybrid arms spec

[galaha]

http://www.firstcohort.org/html/mod...ine&file=displayimage&album=lastup&cat=&pos=2

now i can slam a caster when he use moc, now i can protec and the MA dont lose end. i always was 50/50 but imo this is better spec 50/35. and dont lose dmg ye 100% sure .

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by galaha
http://www.firstcohort.org/html/mod...ine&file=displayimage&album=lastup&cat=&pos=2

now i can slam a caster when he use moc, now i can protec and the MA dont lose end. i always was 50/50 but imo this is better spec 50/35. and dont lose dmg ye 100% sure .

I don't see what your screenie show btw, except you using a small shield to slam

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by stighelmer
edit: I wonder Ialkarn, what 1h thrust styles you use most often and when? (Im gonna respec to thrust from slash )

Pierce,Basilisk fang,Puncture+Lunge as anytime,bearthoot when seiged.

 

[gunner440]

small shield

 

[vindicat0r]

What you have here is a few high RR Arms who think WS > all Spec's.

WS is Very very important I agree but what it comes down to is.........

How important is 1h WS to u over a 9 sec melee stun + A Great Defense. 23 Shield is not a Great Defence and any semi-competent Melee'er will not let you run to his back . Espically if he is trying to stop u hitting his Defendant.

If you did the test's please do tell if you found any damage difference.

I would also be interested in How much WS you lose going from 39 base Thrust to 50. I would imagine it is quite minimal and for A highLander 1h Thrust WS is a lost battle . For Briton it is more suited as you seem to spend so much time using 1h Thrust .....

To simplify What Is being disccused here is

Dont Spec as A hybrid because you Loose

1) Some 1h WS............ which if your going to do damage you should be 2h and as for trying to get PF to proc in an /assist group + Pole Snare it is not important that you MUST proc it so as to use 1h so much as you say. Even Sprint + Phalanx + Aegis = 20sec ? snare < combat dependant ofc>

Or Do Spec Hybrid as you Gain

1) Any Time 9 sec Stun < Ubar I think all will agree >

2) 2 Types of Damage type < crush for Shield >

3) Defensive Ability, Soak up damage if needed

4) Cross Guarding the MA - Related to Defense ofc


If I missed anything please do add as I believe further dicussion is great feed back on the arms as a Class and what possible specs etc.

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by vindicat0r
Or Do Spec Hybrid as you Gain

1) Any Time 9 sec Stun < Ubar I think all will agree >

2) 2 Types of Damage type < crush for Shield >

3) Defensive Ability, Soak up damage if needed

4) Cross Guarding the MA - Related to Defense ofc


If I missed anything please do add as I believe further dicussion is great feed back on the arms as a Class and what possible specs etc.

1) not vital if you play offensive.

2) yea see Galaha ss and his strong 176 damage on slam whit small shield and compare it whit his 700+ damage the next round,sound he lost a chance to do another good shot for me.

3) 23 shield=almost same defense (defense against what aniway?)

4)don't make sense -if someone is so stupid to focus on tanks (why the Ma aniway? the MA have some reasons to stay alive in front of others ?) the battle is won already.

edited: about point 2) to be fair, onslaught and two moon are a side chain and they got an uge cap,if the target wasn't slammed prolly he couldn't have done this combo and prolly he would have done aloot less damage.

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
1) not vital if you play offensive.

2) yea see Galaha ss and his strong 176 damage on slam whit small shield and compare it whit his 700+ damage the next round,sound he lost a chance to do another good shot for me.

3) 23 shield=almost same defense (defense against what aniway?)

4)don't make sense -if someone is so stupid to focus on tanks (why the Ma aniway? the MA have some reasons to stay alive in front of others ?) the battle is won already.

edited: about point 2) to be fair, onslaught and two moon are a side chain and they got an uge cap,if the target wasn't slammed prolly he couldn't have done this combo and prolly he would have done aloot less damage.

Glad you put in that final point...was gonna say its one of the advantages of being able to slam as a 2H - makes it alot easier to land onslaught.

As for point 4 about having guard on your MA. I recall not so long back a discussion about a good alb group. I remember there being some good points made by BF people about having a s/s paladin assisting 2 offensive tanks, with a s/s armsman being the guard. The primary benefit was that it allowed endurance chant to be within range of your offensive tanks, and having the better guard of (ideally) a 50/50 s/s armsman. A point was then raised why have a s/s pally on offense then when you could have a 2H pally. In response to this the following point was made by Gunner:

"e.g. main tanks on a rm who has a guard bot. --> the palas job in this case to get rid of the guard bot (slam) providing the main tanks with 9sec of free time to kill the rm.
guarding the main tanks also helps as a lot of times being an off tank myself im prime target to being slammed and guard helps vs slam especially since slam has no +to hit and fails a lot."

It's a good example of another situation where slam comes into play and a good reason for having the option of a guard on the MA. The interesting thing in that thread was that Gunner later said that hybrid armsman are not viable because they lose too much damage. The facts are they don't - as has been demonstrated several times in this thread.

So if for whatever reason you don't have a s/s pally assisting the main tanks, given the fact that there are numerous sitatuations where having slam in offensive situations can be a real benefit, (taking out the guard bot, slamming to allow high damage positionals, preventing escape) and given the fact that damage output on a hybrid will not be significantly lower than a pure arms I still see no reason why someone shouldn't choose the spec if they wish.

The bottom line is that the original poster in this thread asked for ideas about hybrid specs. He was given several. Then he had people saying he shouldn't choose that spec because of x,y,z reasons. The primary arguments against have been that a) damage is too low and b) slam is a waste. There has been plenty now posted to show that neither a) or b) hold much weight.

To be honest the only real issue as I see it from looking at all the evidence here is whether he should go for 42 shield with the anytime 9 second stun or a lower shield spec (such as Stigs at 23) that allows for positional stuns. Its really a matter of personal taste which he goes for - aslong as he maximises pole/2H and gets slash/thrust over 50 with items/rr.

 

[K0nah]

having the _option_ of a 9s anytime stun and high defence/guard, even if u rarely use it, when it costs u ~absolutely nothing, seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by K0nah
having the _option_ of a 9s anytime stun and high defence/guard, even if u rarely use it, when it costs u ~absolutely nothing, seems like a no brainer to me.

IF ( (value of 9 sec slam + 9.5% chance to block - value of 6 sec back stun)* > (Alot higher WS when using 1h AND Shield + ~2% increase in damage using Pole) )
THEN
Go hybrid 50/39/42/x
ELSE
Go 50/50/23/21(17)**



* Also, bare in mind that WS will be lower and hence landing slam will be more difficult than if you had 50 weapon style, which you will have in if you go 50/50/23/21 and attempt to use back stun

edit: ** Still thinking about the double damage type thingy suggested by Pin though but for now I think this is the best one for me


And yeah, I'm a geek

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by bracken_woodman
Glad you put in that final point...was gonna say its one of the advantages of being able to slam as a 2H - makes it alot easier to land onslaught.

Yes,but you can still do it if the target is snared via PF,or if you stun it whit your 6 second stun (second on chain after an anytime),or,if you are fast enought,after a 2 sec stun whit double black (first of a chain usable from back).

Originally posted by bracken_woodman

point 4 about having guard on your MA. I recall not so long back a discussion about a good alb group. I remember there being some good points made by BF people about having a s/s paladin assisting 2 offensive tanks, with a s/s armsman being the guard. The primary benefit was that it allowed endurance chant to be within range of your offensive tanks, and having the better guard of (ideally) a 50/50 s/s armsman.

Ofc a 50/50 armsman is a better guardbot than a pali,under all points of view,but you can't affort it,cause it greatly reduce the damage output of the group.
Sometimes BF have a setup like that,and honestly I can feel the difference in offence.
But we were talking about hibrids whit slam not discuting about bann slam.

Somewhere in your post you said slam fail aloot,well it fail aloot cause a low main hand spec influence the chance to land your style succesfully,that it's another reason cause an hibrid whit slam dosen't work well,so why not land a 6 sec stun whit less chances to fail?

Edited:nerf my slow ass :Stighelmer's message wasnt here when I started to edit this message ,sorry for the repetitions.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Asha
You're the one who brought up MoC, but it's not ok to talk about purge? Come on... it's the same thing you can't say: spec this way to combat MoC/instants, but then when someone says a good caster will have purge up (and sorry but a good -caster- is going to have purge up when then MoC, maybe not a druid but just about all else) you say you can't focus on RAs? Can't have it both ways

True about that, just pointed out that there is a large amount of Hib-casters (low RR) who probably do have MOC but no Personal Purge.

Yes, the high RR casters have it, ofcourse. But in Hibernia (from my experience on Prydwen) alot tend to rely on GP at lower RR.

Yet a RR4 caster with MOC up is as deadly as a RR9 caster if he dont get stunned fast. Backstun-style is nice, but I hardly get backstunned during MOC with my druid because I spin around, so its hard to land positionals. I think PBAoE-casters use this technique too, tho Im more focussed on their hp then their spinning around

Anyhow all Im saying is that MOC up doesnt mean automatically purge up at Hibs. It is in ideal situation, practice can be different.

In the end I still think an anytime 9 sec stun > 6 sec positional stun > more 1H-weaponskill (with low shield) but I dont play an armsman so Im not too sure about it.

Think it comes down to a matter of personal preference in the end

 

[ye-roon]

well since there's no need to make a new topic:

my acount is closec, almost 5 motnths, so i need to reactivate b4 the 6th month. so when its active i want to make an arms:

so i was wandering how can i get auto train in both slash and pole or if thats not posible just in slash.

its like: don't train in slash and choose crush from start or something?? or choose pole from the start and don't train in it??, i've been out for a while

 

[stighelmer]

Go Shield/Crush atleast until level 40 (No Points in Polearm).

You will have autotrained both Thrust and Slash. Not Polearm though.

Continue to autotrain to 50 and use a respec stone or respec to your desired spec at 40.

If you are sure you want to go thrust you could autotrain by speccing in slash until 40 (or 50) since this also will autotrain Thrust (but it will not autotrain crush).

But do not go 1h/Shield and spec in thrust to autotrain slash because 1h Thrust Arms sux.

edit: But tbh, I would roll a Thrust Merc if I were you.

 

[ye-roon]

well i want plate

and something inside me doesn't want to play a merc

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by ye-roon
well i want plate

and something inside me doesn't want to play a merc

Yeah I know wot u mean, Armsmen are kewl. Mercs are kinda like Armsmen in their PJs.

Although Merc > Arms atm.

 

[ye-roon]

yeah pala > arms too (in 1on1 battle)

never beat a merc tho :/

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by ye-roon
yeah pala > arms too (in 1on1 battle)

never beat a merc tho :/

well tbh,

pala != arms/merc

merc > arms

basically

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
Yes,but you can still do it if the target is snared via PF,or if you stun it whit your 6 second stun (second on chain after an anytime),or,if you are fast enought,after a 2 sec stun whit double black (first of a chain usable from back).

Ofc a 50/50 armsman is a better guardbot than a pali,under all points of view,but you can't affort it,cause it greatly reduce the damage output of the group.
Sometimes BF have a setup like that,and honestly I can feel the difference in offence.
But we were talking about hibrids whit slam not discuting about bann slam.

Somewhere in your post you said slam fail aloot,well it fail aloot cause a low main hand spec influence the chance to land your style succesfully,that it's another reason cause an hibrid whit slam dosen't work well,so why not land a 6 sec stun whit less chances to fail?

Edited:nerf my slow ass :Stighelmer's message wasnt here when I started to edit this message ,sorry for the repetitions.

Fair point that it can still be done if snared...though I would still say not as easily. That's a fair comment though.

The point I raised about having a slam pally was merely to show more reasons raised for having slam - not needing slam was one of the points raised in this thread against having a hybrid.

As for slam failing a lot...I've never said that at all I have said that at 42 shield I never had a problem landing slam. The only time it was a problem was when I wasn't fully buffed (and therefore lower dex - that being the primary factor in my experience, not ws).

Anyways...good discussion and already on page 5. Bet the original poster is glad he asked now!!!!

 

[bracken_woodman]

Originally posted by stighelmer
Mercs are kinda like Armsmen in their PJs.

lol that would make a good sig for an armsman

 

[vindicat0r]

Originally posted by K0nah
having the _option_ of a 9s anytime stun and high defence/guard, even if u rarely use it, when it costs u ~absolutely nothing, seems like a no brainer to me.

This pretty much Sums it up.

Althought he is incorrect to say ~absolutely nothing.

You Loose 1h WS which is low anyway as A highlander espically.


What you gain Far exceeds what you loose, please stop telling ppl hybrid is bad or gimped, Dont knock what u dont test and I have tested both with many spec's.

Originally posted by Ialkarn
1) not vital if you play offensive.

Slam for a hybrid arms is mostly used for offense ^^.
Being albe to slam a target and do damage to him for 9 secs positional's etc with the /assist train is Amazing. SLamming any target and then all the tanks work ther positionals on him is a Fantastic Utility to have, a slammed warrior cant block 90% of your shot's ^^, It's all about Group Utility look at Mid grps.

Originally posted by Ialkarn
3) 23 shield=almost same defense (defense against what aniway?)

Ialkarn lol please .......... with hybrid you get basically double the Defence which can also be used on other team mate's, I Have been that 23 shield spec before . As for what, you do get attacked as tank's sometimes you know ^^ even gunz pointed that out as bracken out-lined above. You Must get behind your target = Takes time and him Running away < usually do> + it's only 6 secs stun. If the Shammy pbae diease you wont catch a sprinting healer with slam he doesnt get a chance to run and is snared when he comes out of slam if you know what your doing.



So Yes the Discussion at the moment stand's @

You get more 1 WS < Dont mention dmg as its v v minimal>

Or

You get 9sec anytime stun!!! Very Good Defence for you and others With no loss in damage.

Ialkarn if you would care to put down what you gain and loose with Hybrid and what you Gain and loose as Full 2h dont bother saying point's either like this 23 Shield Defence being as good as 42 shield because its deff not, I have been 23 Shield before

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by vindicat0r
This pretty much Sums it up.

Althought he is incorrect to say ~absolutely nothing.

You Loose 1h WS which is low anyway as A highlander espically.


What you gain Far exceeds what you loose, please stop telling ppl hybrid is bad or gimped, Dont knock what u dont test and I have tested both with many spec's.



Slam for a hybrid arms is mostly used for offense ^^.
Being albe to slam a target and do damage to him for 9 secs positional's etc with the /assist train is Amazing. SLamming any target and then all the tanks work ther positionals on him is a Fantastic Utility to have, a slammed warrior cant block 90% of your shot's ^^, It's all about Group Utility look at Mid grps.



Ialkarn lol please .......... with hybrid you get basically double the Defence which can also be used on other team mate's, I Have been that 23 shield spec before . As for what, you do get attacked as tank's sometimes you know ^^ even gunz pointed that out as bracken out-lined above. You Must get behind your target = Takes time and him Running away < usually do> + it's only 6 secs stun. If the Shammy pbae diease you wont catch a sprinting healer with slam he doesnt get a chance to run and is snared when he comes out of slam if you know what your doing.



So Yes the Discussion at the moment stand's @

You get more 1 WS < Dont mention dmg as its v v minimal>

Or

You get 9sec anytime stun!!! Very Good Defence for you and others With no loss in damage.

Ialkarn if you would care to put down what you gain and loose with Hybrid and what you Gain and loose as Full 2h dont bother saying point's either like this 23 Shield Defence being as good as 42 shield because its deff not, I have been 23 Shield before

d00d, I was 50/39/42/x longer than I have been 50/50/23/17 and I support the latter one.

 

[vindicat0r]

Originally posted by stighelmer
d00d, I was 50/39/42/x longer than I have been 50/50/23/17 and I support the latter one.

So was I. Hence why I see the error's of my way's.

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by vindicat0r
So was I. Hence why I see the error's of my way's.

Yeah, I also see the error of your ways

I can sell you a Skill Respec Stone for 4P to correct them though

ps. ye, ye, I know you have plenty already in SS

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by vindicat0r




Ialkarn lol please .......... with hybrid you get basically double the Defence which can also be used on other team mate's, I Have been that 23 shield spec before .

Uh? double your defense? you get 0.1% more chances to block after 50 spec so compare a 23+15 or 20 to a 42+15 or 20(depend on your rr,) shield spec and you ll see the block rate its not the double its something btw 5% and 8% more.
And since as 2h user you don't always wear your shield your don't use the fully pontential of this spec.
What I see is:you reduce your defense using 2h/pole since you drop aloot of parry.

Originally posted by vindicat0r

If the Shammy pbae disase you wont catch a sprinting healer with slam he doesnt get a chance to run and is snared when he comes out of slam if you know what your doing.

Thats why all the tanks of the group should have PF
A single Pf fight in group is aloot more effective of any slam since it got no immunity timer.
He run from you---> you hit him=he get snared.

 

[old.Reno]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
Uh? double your defense? you get 0.1% more chances to block after 50 spec

I really want to see the evidence for this.
Afaik block chance continues to improve by 0.5% for every point above 50.

Danita

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by old.Reno
I really want to see the evidence for this.
Afaik block chance continues to improve by 0.5% for every point above 50.

Danita

Well you are wrong,and everyone who have/had 50 parry/shield
know adding moparry or moblocking they get a big boost(3% x lvl), aloot more than adding 11 points from items.

 

[galaha]

and if a caster use moc?

 

[stighelmer]

Originally posted by galaha
and if a caster use moc?

u go up behind him and back stun ofc

you would even have more chance to land it than slam since you have atleast 11 more points specced in your weapon damage.
Higher 1h WS give you higher chance to land shield styles

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stighelmer
u go up behind him and back stun ofc

you would even have more chance to land it than slam since you have atleast 11 more points specced in your weapon damage.
Higher 1h WS give you higher chance to land shield styles

And if the caster uses /face, or just keeps twisting, etc?

And having a higher 1h weaponskill will only effect your chance to bypass a guard on the caster. It does nothing for hit/miss (and I don't see many casters with high evade/block/parry).

 

[stighelmer]

so in the situation when the caster do not have purge when he uses moc and is spinning or using face and there is no pala around to supply the slam then if we are not enough tanks on him at the same time to only need 1 hit each it would be good to be hybrid spec.

oki