Hebrew word for disproportionate?

[nath]

Then I'm glad you're not allowed an assault rifle.

 

[Munkey]

Considering you're often on top of a building or a tower, and the rocks are a mere figurative protest, more an expression of anger and exasperation of their current situation inflicted upon them by yourself?

 

[Bodhi]

As a neutral observer (i.e they're miles away so I really don't give a shit too much about who's winning) it seems this whole problem could have been prevented if the Aliies had told the Jews to fuck off back to Poland/Germany etc after the war and give the land back to the people who they displaced - seems only fair n that.

 

[Paradroid]

...
There are countless wars that resulted in peace. ...
...

I'd hope so or we'd still be at war with everyone.


I suppose that's a problem with the endless cycle of violence we all enjoy so much these days - we get so caught up in the international-news-theatre tig-tagging of blame and killings that we completely miss the obvious points like; they're making their situation worse, doing this to other human beings is wrong, I'm never going anywhere near there on holiday, ...




Two-state solution me thinks ... but we'll need to get Joe Pesci to stick their fawkin' heads in a fawkin' vice until they all fawkin' agree. Agree?

"You make me pop your fawkin' eye outta your head to protect that piece of shit, ....?"

(he'll solve all our problems with his harsh gangster skills and metalwork o-level)

 

[DaGaffer]

Two-state solution me thinks ...

The biggest irony of the 'two-state' solution is that that was the original plan for Israel back in 1948 and the Arabs rejected the idea out of hand...

 

[DaGaffer]

As for the Zionists, I always thought they were terrorists and that they, unashamedly, targetted British interests. King David hotel being one (which is quite pertinent since Isreal were just celebrating the event this week. Which put the british consul's back up a bit ) I was listening to a program on R4 which detailed a plot to kill Bevan and plots to kill other military personnel. A lot of this was done by Irgun, which was (as far as I remember) led by the first leader of Isreal. Maybe it's the BBC but every leader of Isreal in the past seems to have been, or rumored to have been, a terrorist* in the past.

*arguments based on 'he wasn't a terrorist, he was a freedom fighter' will be ignored

Zionism was the political movement, that started in Europe back in the late 1800s. The jews were already buying land in Palestine to set up a 'homeland' before WW1. This accelerated once the British took over Palestine from the Ottomans after WW1. The creation of a Jewish state was under discussion even before WWII, and the Irgun was a terrorist offshoot that took to bombing the British when they thought the British were going to sell them out to the arabs or not leave Palestine at all, and they wanted unrestricted jewish immigration (this is a very cut down version of events). The Stern Gang was a splinter group of the Irgun (think INLA to IRA), who even made contact with the Nazis(!!) during WWII with a view to getting help against the British and creating an exile destination for European jews. The Nazis of course, had other plans...

As galling as it is, its not that surprising that Irgun and The Stern Gang are celebrated in Israel (and yes, a lot of their former members became political leaders). In that regard there are plenty of other parts of Empire where this happens; in the village my folks live in in Cyprus, there's an Old People's Home for EOKA members who probably took potshots at my Dad's army mates in '50's and '60's. My Dad's barber was an EOKA terrorist and jokes about it...

 

[GDW]

Sorry to correct you here but the INLA is/was never a splinter group of the IRA..... but I understand the point you are trying to make.

The point I wish to make (and going on my past attempts in previous threads you won't accept this because you are always right....but here goes anyway)....

..... Unless you live in the country itself ( and even then your understanding will be tainted by internal media) you will not truelly understand what goes on around you. It is very easy for people living hundreds of miles away to discuss/argue what they think, almost as if they have have their finger on the button and know exactly the way it is...making sweeping and definitive statements and comments etc etc.

Im sorry guys, you are all pretty much full of shit, but your posts are make amusing reading (so much so that I had to make this comment)

 

[Munkey]

To be fair, one of my palestinian friends thinks that Isreal is the best country in the world, but then he was only born in Palestine before he moved away, and he hates returning to the country to visit family.

 

[DaGaffer]

Sorry to correct you here but the INLA is/was never a splinter group of the IRA..... but I understand the point you are trying to make.

The founders of the INLA were Seamus Costello and other activists who had left or been forced out of the Official IRA in the wake of the OIRA's 1972 ceasefire and the increasingly reformist approach of Official Sinn Fein. Costello espoused a mixture of traditional republican militarism and Marxist-oriented politics.Shortly after it was founded, the INLA came under attack from their former comrades in the OIRA, who wanted to destroy the new grouping before it could get off the ground.

If it looks like a splinter group and smells like a splinter group, it is a splinter group.

The point I wish to make (and going on my past attempts in previous threads you won't accept this because you are always right....but here goes anyway)....

..... Unless you live in the country itself ( and even then your understanding will be tainted by internal media) you will not truelly understand what goes on around you. It is very easy for people living hundreds of miles away to discuss/argue what they think, almost as if they have have their finger on the button and know exactly the way it is...making sweeping and definitive statements and comments etc etc.

Im sorry guys, you are all pretty much full of shit, but your posts are make amusing reading (so much so that I had to make this comment)

Sorry that having an opinion doesn't meet with your approval Oh Wise One. Anyway, I think you'll find most of my responses have been about rebutting Palestinian propoganda with a few actual facts and I stand by that. I certainly haven't claimed any solutions to the problems of the Middle East. Glad you found it amusing.

 

[Yaka]

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay...696&q=Peace,+Propaganda+and+the+Promised+Land

some peeps might find this docu intresting

 

[Wij]

Hmm - not likely to be honest when the first commentator is Naom Chomsky. Hate that scum.

 

[yaruar]

Hmm - not likely to be honest when the first commentator is Naom Chomsky. Hate that scum.

I think that's rather a strong response to probably one of the greatest living academics and philosohers......

 

[Wij]

I think that's rather a strong response to probably one of the greatest living academics and philosohers......

...with some of the flakiest political views of modern times.

 

[Paradroid]

...with some of the flakiest political views of modern times.

Really? A rather sweeping statement. I've watched hours upon hours of Noam Chomsky "talks" and nothing he has said comes across as "flakie". Everything he says is backed-up with references, even political heavyweights in opposition to his stance admit he's well-read and well-informed (usually too informed for anyone to beat him in a debate).

Is it because he speaks the truth, and you can't handle the truth?

 

[Munkey]

I have to say, I doubted the Isreali's and their smart bombs, as well as their intelligence (both mental and army), but I have to congratulate them on this.

NSFW

 

[Doh_boy]

If the bits about the settlements are truthful I'm actually really shocked. Never thought it was that bad. :/

 

[Raven]

NSFW

while very disturbing they do not show the other side of the story with the suicide bombings and rocket attacks, they are all pretty much as bad as each other.

 

[Munkey]

If the bits about the settlements are truthful I'm actually really shocked. Never thought it was that bad. :/

I thought everyone knew it was this bad :/ It is a very bad situation, althought its not all bad! My palestinian friends say you can get around easy if you're allowed on the isreali freeways. Which is basicly never. I've listened to more than a few palestinian friends and their familys talk about their houses there, with some who became refugees showing pictures of their old homes and their keys and documents showing ownership after the Isrealis have moved in and pushed all the current residents out in order for Jewish communities to be put there.

The Isrealis piss me off alot.

And in regard to the rocket attacks, today was the most number of rockets hezbollah have fired.

230 rockets

1 dead.

The rockets have nowhere near as much destructive potential as the isreali bombs, rarely killing people and acting more as scare tactics.

At least in Isreal you ahve air sirens and bomb shelters to warn and hide you.

In Lebanon, all you can do is listen for the first bombs and then hide in your basement and pray they decide not to bomb you.


edit: And although I dont approve of the suicide bombings. I do understand why they are carried out. It is a very very frustrating situation for Arabs there, they feel ignored by the international community and feel that they always side with Isreal, which is nearly always true. Those UN orders mentioned in the documentary have been in place for a long, long time and yet they have still yet to be carried out by the Isrealis, and yet full support is still given to them by the western countries.

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah but how many times Munkey, the bloody arabs just start it again and again, then wail when the Israelis strike back.
I read on the BBC (god help us all) a quote from a Lebanese man say "dont pull a sleeping tiger by the tail- this is what we have done to Israel".
Anyway, you dont even know what bagpipes are !!!

 

[Munkey]

I think the Isrealis have been in Palestine long enough to justify the arabs "starting it". Take the hint and fuck off. *waves fist* (not you throd)


And whilst I agree that Hezbollah are the short-term cause of the Isreali-Lebanese war, I do believe that Isreal is doing nothing to further the situation, making it only worse, and taking it out on everyone. To the approval of the major decision makers of the world.

If its on the news and not near us, then its ok!!!!


And anyway, you dont even know what good music is!

 

[old.user4556]

Israel today, somewhere else tomorrow.

Think about it for a moment. Take Israel away, if we moved all the Jews out and said "ok have Palestine back", I guarantee within a year Palestine would be knocking lumps out of Lebanon or vice versa, or someone would start a ruckus with Jordan or Syria.

If it's not the Jews, the Arab tribes/factions would just start on one another for a piece of something else. Christ, even Muslim factions blow one another up in Iraq and can't agree on fuck all.

It's a big fucking mess, it's just easier to blame and pick a fight with the Jews.

(imo)

 

[Munkey]

Palestine would in no way be able to start a ruckus with another country if Isreal did pull out/was abolished.

Syria though are a bunch of *****, would take any chance they could to invade Lebanon again. And the Iranians I don't really see as a threat, despite the best efforts of the UN and America.

North Korea or even America on the other hand......

 

[Munkey]

Also, do bear in mind that we had our religious reformation (the split of the Protestants from the Catholics) hundreds of years ago, a similar process (i.e. the Sunnis and the Shias) has yet to take place. A situation that isnt helped by conflicting Fatwas being thrown around left right and centre. Contrary to Western belief, we cannot all live together in peace and harmony, and it is only time until a showdown occurs between the two factions.

Attempting to supress the two factions and try to get them to live in harmony will only make matters worse, as they will see it, and rightly so, as even more Western attempts to interfere. The fact that the west basicly thinks it has the right to interfere, and has been doing so for a long time, is only increasing resentment and making matters worse.

i.e. Iraqi invasion, telling Iran to stop its Nuclear program despite the fact that every country telling it to has its own nuclear program of some sorts, repeated demostrations of support for Isreal, interference and two-faced displays during regional conflicts e.g. the war between Syria and Iraq, the Lebanese Civil war etc.

Its a very long list, and most people I know would prefer that the West listen and attempt to support the arab governments rather than simply telling them what to do. As demonstrated before (South America and Iraq both come to mind), the West does not always know what is best.

 

[Wij]

Really? A rather sweeping statement. I've watched hours upon hours of Noam Chomsky "talks" and nothing he has said comes across as "flakie". Everything he says is backed-up with references, even political heavyweights in opposition to his stance admit he's well-read and well-informed (usually too informed for anyone to beat him in a debate).

Is it because he speaks the truth, and you can't handle the truth?

No, it's because he's a cock who's just quite good at rhetoric.

 

[DaGaffer]

Take the hint and fuck off.

Yeah, because that's going to happen. This is what's so ridiculous; does anyone, apart from Hezbollah fanatics, genuinely believe Israel is just going to vanish? All this stupidity starts from that point. Accept Israel is going to be around, accept the refugees aren't coming back (because it would effectively destroy Israel) and you can start to deal with the problem.

And in regard to the rocket attacks, today was the most number of rockets hezbollah have fired.

230 rockets

1 dead.

The rockets have nowhere near as much destructive potential as the isreali bombs, rarely killing people and acting more as scare tactics.

At least in Isreal you ahve air sirens and bomb shelters to warn and hide you.

In Lebanon, all you can do is listen for the first bombs and then hide in your basement and pray they decide not to bomb you.

And your point is? Its war not sport. It doesn't really matter if they fired one rocket or 10,000 (and don't forget these rocket attacks had been building for months before Israel acted), if you fire rockets at people who have artillery and F-15s, don't be surprised if they use them. I'm constantly amazed that people seem to regard this as somehow 'an unfair fight'. And don't you think the Israelis have developed an air-raid warning system for good reason?

edit: And although I dont approve of the suicide bombings. I do understand why they are carried out. It is a very very frustrating situation for Arabs there, they feel ignored by the international community and feel that they always side with Isreal, which is nearly always true. Those UN orders mentioned in the documentary have been in place for a long, long time and yet they have still yet to be carried out by the Isrealis, and yet full support is still given to them by the western countries.

This incredible double-think never ceases to amaze me; "the Arabs there feel ignored by the international community" and yet elsewhere you criticise that selfsame 'community' for constantly interfering in the middle-east; make your mind up! The reality is that the Western Media has been largely pro-Lebanon in this crisis, as have most Western governments; but expecting the Americans to back anyone but Israel is just silly (more Jews in the US than Israel remember?). I'd also like to point out that when it comes to humanitarian aid for the Palestinians and the Lebanese, its the interfering West that takes the lead. As I've said before, the Palestinians are treated like shit by their fellow arabs. How can the Arab world justify refugee camps in Syria, Jordan and elsewhere, for 'Palestinian refugees' who are actually the children and grandchildren of people originally displaced as far back as 1948 and 1967? Its obscene. Imagine if the refugees we took in from, say, Uganda in the 1970s, were just kept in camps and not given British rights for the last thirty years. Well that's what happens in the Arab world. Maybe when they put their own house in order they can take the moral high ground.

Oh, and as for the West interfering in Iraq, you're absolutely correct, but for the wrong reasons (it was a bad idea for us), and as for interfering in Iran over their nuclear programme, the West is interfering because Iran with nukes scares everyone shitless, and with good reason. It may not be 'fair', but its hardly surprising.

I guess my point is that no-one in this mess, the West, the Israelis or the Arabs, have clean hands, and any side in this can skew the facts to demonise the others.

 

[Munkey]

Yeah, because that's going to happen. This is what's so ridiculous; does anyone, apart from Hezbollah fanatics, genuinely believe Israel is just going to vanish? All this stupidity starts from that point. Accept Israel is going to be around, accept the refugees aren't coming back (because it would effectively destroy Israel) and you can start to deal with the problem.

Fuck off from the Palestinian land I meant

And your point is? Its war not sport. It doesn't really matter if they fired one rocket or 10,000 (and don't forget these rocket attacks had been building for months before Israel acted), if you fire rockets at people who have artillery and F-15s, don't be surprised if they use them. I'm constantly amazed that people seem to regard this as somehow 'an unfair fight'. And don't you think the Israelis have developed an air-raid warning system for good reason?

The Isreali's also seem to take this same point, massacring civilians. Im glad you agree with them.

This incredible double-think never ceases to amaze me; "the Arabs there feel ignored by the international community" and yet elsewhere you criticise that selfsame 'community' for constantly interfering in the middle-east; make your mind up! The reality is that the Western Media has been largely pro-Lebanon in this crisis, as have most Western governments; but expecting the Americans to back anyone but Israel is just silly (more Jews in the US than Israel remember?). I'd also like to point out that when it comes to humanitarian aid for the Palestinians and the Lebanese, its the interfering West that takes the lead. As I've said before, the Palestinians are treated like shit by their fellow arabs. How can the Arab world justify refugee camps in Syria, Jordan and elsewhere, for 'Palestinian refugees' who are actually the children and grandchildren of people originally displaced as far back as 1948 and 1967? Its obscene. Imagine if the refugees we took in from, say, Uganda in the 1970s, were just kept in camps and not given British rights for the last thirty years. Well that's what happens in the Arab world. Maybe when they put their own house in order they can take the moral high ground.

America's media, i.e. the only country who can effectivley make a difference in the region, has been effectivley pro-Isreali. The BBC, and to a lesser extent Sky, on the other hand has actually taken a fair and balanced stance, for which I cheer them on for. And they feel 'ignored' because the bloody West keeps interefering without any regard for the people who live there, you just seem to have taken my argument out of context and used it to further your own.

And these refugees have no way of getting back to Palestine. There is effectivley no room left for the thousands and thousands who have been displaced thanks to Isreal encroachment upon their land. Like I said, the Palestinians wnat to go back to their old land which they rightfully own, and to which the UN agrees is theirs. However Isreal is refusing to move. Indeed, the areas of Gaza and West Bank are filled with refugees themselves. Indeed, when Palestinian militants forced holes in the walls of the Egypt-Gaza strip border, large numbers of Palestinians flooded back into the country. These people do want to return home, and the arab nations who give them their passports and help the Palestinian refugees with education and healthcare also want them to go back, but whilst Isreal is still occupying and controlling access points, they are unable to.

Whilst I agree that the militant groups are doing nothing to help further the situation of their fellow civilians, I do believe that they feel it is the only way they can end Isreali occupation within their lands, as Isreal effectivley holds all the cards at table (with settlements and the wall showing that they are less than likely to ever give up, particularly within West Bank to a bunch of people they view as under their thumb. I hold the view that Isreal should exist, a 2 state solution, but I also feel that it is a long long way from ever being completed, particularly whilst the US continues to back them.

I also do not approve of Hezbollah, but I will support them, as they are the only way Lebanon have of hitting back at Isreal until a ceasfire is finally called by the US and subsequently Isreal. Indeed, support for them amongst the Lebanese population has rocketed (no pun intended) despite the fact that many blame them for sparking the current conflict.

 

[Tom]

Why does nobody ever blame the Turks? After all, they controlled the land for a bit longer than the British.

They're all a bunch of self-serving ***** if you ask me. I hope they do blow themselves to kingdom come, that way I won't have it shoved in my face every time I turn the TV on.

 

[DaGaffer]

Fuck off from the Palestinian land I meant

Well, Hezbollah thinks the whole of Israel is 'Palestinian land', which makes it rather difficult for the Israelis to see their point of view wouldn't you say?

The Isreali's also seem to take this same point, massacring civilians. Im glad you agree with them.

No-one wants to see civilians killed, but who fired first and who's hiding amongst the Lebanese civilian population? Like I said before, no-one's wearing a white hat here.

America's media, i.e. the only country who can effectivley make a difference in the region, has been effectivley pro-Isreali. The BBC, and to a lesser extent Sky, on the other hand has actually taken a fair and balanced stance, for which I cheer them on for. And they feel 'ignored' because the bloody West keeps interefering without any regard for the people who live there, you just seem to have taken my argument out of context and used it to further your own.

No, still don't buy it. You can't demand the west 'do something' and then complain they interfere. As for whether the West interferes without regard for the people who live there, you can make exactly the same argument about Hezbollah themselves; they've parked themselves amongst the Lebanese population without a thought about the consequences of their actions on those selfsame people. The people who've interfered with the Lebanese most over the last 20 years are Hezbollah, the Syrians and the Israelis, NOT the West.

And these refugees have no way of getting back to Palestine. There is effectivley no room left for the thousands and thousands who have been displaced thanks to Isreal encroachment upon their land. Like I said, the Palestinians wnat to go back to their old land which they rightfully own, and to which the UN agrees is theirs. However Isreal is refusing to move. Indeed, the areas of Gaza and West Bank are filled with refugees themselves. Indeed, when Palestinian militants forced holes in the walls of the Egypt-Gaza strip border, large numbers of Palestinians flooded back into the country. These people do want to return home, and the arab nations who give them their passports and help the Palestinian refugees with education and healthcare also want them to go back, but whilst Isreal is still occupying and controlling access points, they are unable to.

Look, its not going to happen. Israel isn't going to let 4 million refugees back into Israel. It would destroy Israel. And the world can rant and rave about it as much as they like, but unless Israel is eradicated the Palestinians need to cut their losses and move on, and the Arab world needs to help them do that. As I said in an earlier post, the Palestinians are not unique; they're not the first people from a former Imperial power who have been moved wholesale. I know it sounds callous, but all the options are callous. A Palestine of enclaves surrounded by Israel is never going to work.

Whilst I agree that the militant groups are doing nothing to help further the situation of their fellow civilians, I do believe that they feel it is the only way they can end Isreali occupation within their lands, as Isreal effectivley holds all the cards at table (with settlements and the wall showing that they are less than likely to ever give up, particularly within West Bank to a bunch of people they view as under their thumb. I hold the view that Isreal should exist, a 2 state solution, but I also feel that it is a long long way from ever being completed, particularly whilst the US continues to back them.

They may believe this but they are utterly, utterly wrong, and the misery is going to go on for another sixty years if they don't understand that. The two state solution might have worked back in 1948 when it was first proposed (and rejected out of hand by the arabs) but it won't work now.

I also do not approve of Hezbollah, but I will support them, as they are the only way Lebanon have of hitting back at Isreal until a ceasfire is finally called by the US and subsequently Isreal. Indeed, support for them amongst the Lebanese population has rocketed (no pun intended) despite the fact that many blame them for sparking the current conflict.

But they started it!. They're not 'hitting back', they 'hit first' ffs. Israel have absolutely no incentive to stop while Hezbollah are firing missiles at them! I know Lebanese support has shot up, but that's because logic takes a bath when you're under fire. Israel wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Hezbollah. You've said yourself the effect of their rockets is minor compared to what Israel can do to them, so what's the point?

 

[Munkey]

Why does nobody ever blame the Turks? After all, they controlled the land for a bit longer than the British.

They're all a bunch of self-serving ***** if you ask me. I hope they do blow themselves to kingdom come, that way I won't have it shoved in my face every time I turn the TV on.

The Isrealis? I couldnt agree more!

 

[Tom]

The Isrealis? I couldnt agree more!

You should read the history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It makes the Middle-east conflict look as bloody as a papercut.

I honestly don't see why it generates so much news. So what if the oil is there? What are they going to do, sit on it? As if.