Hebrew word for disproportionate?

[Munkey]

Personally, Africa never has and never will interest me, and its reputation within my mind is not being enhanced by the people I meet from the continent, particularly those from South Africa (no offence to any on this board.)

Middle Eastern countries do actually have the potential to be spread to the West, whilst the African conflicts appear to be mainly internal. I may be wrong, someone correct me if I am. As I said, I take little interest in the continent.

Also I care about the middle east because I live there, have friends from all over the region, including those from Lebanon and Palestine. My girlfriend is Lebanese and, as I said a few pages ago, I was staying in Lebanon when the conflict bagan. So I take a personal interest in it.

And lastly, the conflict could be scaled back, or even ended, should the USA decide to do something, something which the media is lambasting them for. The US, I'm guessing, has little influence over those in the Congo.

 

[Paradroid]

....
But they started it!. They're not 'hitting back', they 'hit first' ffs. Israel have absolutely no incentive to stop while Hezbollah are firing missiles at them! I know Lebanese support has shot up, but that's because logic takes a bath when you're under fire. Israel wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Hezbollah. You've said yourself the effect of their rockets is minor compared to what Israel can do to them, so what's the point?

That was one of the main points in the video, the illusion of Israeli innocence.

In 1982 Israel attacked Lebanon, siezing a chunk of the southern part where they settled down for a long stay. During that time the people living in this "securty zone" were subjected to the brutal Israeli military. The occupied "security zone" created resistance from the people, voila Hezbollah.

Recently, Hezbollah fire rockets into Israel, and they did kidnap 2 soldiers. No one was killed in the rocket attack, and, the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers was for bargaining the release of prisoners (as per their usual practice). Israel sends troops across the border the get their soldiers back and 8 are killed in subsequent fighting with Hezbollah. The next day Israel bomb the shit out of Lebanon killing 35 civilians and kicking-off a humanitarian crisis.

Wikipedias "consequences" of Israels first attack on Lebanon in 1982:

...
Osama Bin Laden said in a videotape released on the eve of the 2004 U.S. presidential elections that he was inspired to attack the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.
....

But they need more time for their ethnic cleansing ... or is it thought-crime cleansing? ... collective cleansing?

 

[DaGaffer]

That was one of the main points in the video, the illusion of Israeli innocence.

In 1982 Israel attacked Lebanon, siezing a chunk of the southern part where they settled down for a long stay. During that time the people living in this "securty zone" were subjected to the brutal Israeli military. The occupied "security zone" created resistance from the people, voila Hezbollah.

Recently, Hezbollah fire rockets into Israel, and they did kidnap 2 soldiers. No one was killed in the rocket attack, and, the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers was for bargaining the release of prisoners (as per their usual practice). Israel sends troops across the border the get their soldiers back and 8 are killed in subsequent fighting with Hezbollah. The next day Israel bomb the shit out of Lebanon killing 35 civilians and kicking-off a humanitarian crisis.

Wikipedias "consequences" of Israels first attack on Lebanon in 1982:




But they need more time for their ethnic cleansing ... or is it thought-crime cleansing? ... collective cleansing?

Israel left South Lebanon six years ago. Sure, Israel 'created' Hezbollah, in much the same way the Versailles Treaty 'created' the Nazis, but it doesn't alter the fact that Hezbollah started this round of fighting; after all if you want to play that game, you could argue the PLO created the 1982 invasion so they started it! Or go back further and say the PLO was formed because the Israelis invaded Gaza and the Golan heights in 1967 and 1973, so that started it. But what's the fucking point? Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel won't get 'Palestine' back, and will just get an Israeli response and new recruits. There seems to be some shock that Israel have broken the 'rules' by not simply doing a prisoner exchange and sticking with the status quo.

I also notice you fall into the same trap of "Hezbollah fired rockets, but no-one was killed", implying "well, that's alright then" and that somehow Israel's response was disproportionate. Its a very suspect way of thinking.

As it happens, I think Israel have created a world of trouble for themselves, but as I keep saying, its utterly ludicrous to simply paint them as the bad guys and Hezbollah as somehow the 'protectors' of the Lebanese; they're both the bad guys and they're both responsible for the civilian deaths.

 

[Calaen]

Fuck Yeah, if your a fucking geek at school and you throw a punch at the school yard bully your gonna get fucking pounded till you bleed.

The lesson is dont fuck with the big boys because you will get a**e f*****d.

What can Israel do? People are allowed to rocket them and kidnap soldiers yet expect no response? People really need to wake up to this fucked up world we are living in, people are suffering everyday.

 

[Trem]

*punches Cal*

 

[Munkey]

Fuck Yeah, if your a fucking geek at school and you throw a punch at the school yard bully your gonna get fucking pounded till you bleed.

The lesson is dont fuck with the big boys because you will get a**e f*****d.

What can Israel do? People are allowed to rocket them and kidnap soldiers yet expect no response? People really need to wake up to this fucked up world we are living in, people are suffering everyday.

Its not that we dont expect a response, its the very high number of civilian casualties and the enormous damage done to the infrastructure by the Isrealis that is the problem. Whilst fighting a guerrila war is hard, bombing the shit out of a random building is not the solution. Nor is destroying the infrastructure of a country when it is merley a very very very small percentage of the population that is your main target.

It would be akin to, say, two british soldiers being kidnapped and a few mortar rounds fired over the Irish border, and in retaliation the British decide to bomb cities from Belfast to the border and incursion deep into the border. A rather simplified comparison perhaps, but one that I think rings true.

 

[Furr]

Slightly different problem in that the IRA's aims weren't to destroy the UK. To be honest everyone seems to think that every country should be treated the same. However what they fail to realise is that the world if full of inequality, isn't a nice place and there has never been or will be for the foreseable future a level playing field.

Israel is a juggernaut compared to other countries in the middle east. Its stance is that its being bitten by thousands of ants, then one day you just get pissed off and decided to destroy the whole ant hill, just have to make sure you can get most of them.

Yes Israels tactics are not agreeable. But then I don't much care for the middle east we just have to make sure the oil keeps flowing from Saudi.

 

[Munkey]

Slightly different problem in that the IRA's aims weren't to destroy the UK. To be honest everyone seems to think that every country should be treated the same. However what they fail to realise is that the world if full of inequality, isn't a nice place and there has never been or will be for the foreseable future a level playing field.

Israel is a juggernaut compared to other countries in the middle east. Its stance is that its being bitten by thousands of ants, then one day you just get pissed off and decided to destroy the whole ant hill, just have to make sure you can get most of them.

Yes Israels tactics are not agreeable. But then I don't much care for the middle east we just have to make sure the oil keeps flowing from Saudi.

This seems to be everyones argument to justify civilian losses, 'war isnt fair.' It just seems a very l'aissez faire attitude. Lebanon is nothing like Saudi, or even any of the gulf countries which are considered more liberal, indeed I'd even go as far as to describe it as European. This misconception seems to be expounded upon by the media, who appear to give it the appearance of a country full of fundamentalists, hell bent on destruction. Before the conflict, and for a short time after its start until Isreali's escalation, support for Hezbollah was low, found more in the South where they'd suffered under Isreali occupation. The rest of the country was sedate, starting to regain its status as an economic hub for the region, a status it had held before the civil war, at great cost to the economy, building vast tracts of road, bridges, infrastructure etc. Thanks to the efforts of Hariri, the guy assassinated by the Syrians, who is revered as almost a saint in Lebanon, the people were brought together, no matter their religion, and almost single-handedly kick-starting the economy after the war, Lebanon was returning to normality. What worries me, is that after this conflict, Lebanon will have a very very hard time to even undo a small bit of the damage done by the Isrealis. Why should a whole country be forced to suffer because of the actions of a few people and the ego of another country over the border?

 

[throdgrain]

Thing is, to me Munkey the Lebanese are suffering because of Hezbollah as much as because of Israel.
And as has been said, Hezbollah is militarily more powerful than the Lebanese government, some somebody must be supporting them.

 

[DaGaffer]

Its not that we dont expect a response, its the very high number of civilian casualties and the enormous damage done to the infrastructure by the Isrealis that is the problem. Whilst fighting a guerrila war is hard, bombing the shit out of a random building is not the solution. Nor is destroying the infrastructure of a country when it is merley a very very very small percentage of the population that is your main target.

It would be akin to, say, two british soldiers being kidnapped and a few mortar rounds fired over the Irish border, and in retaliation the British decide to bomb cities from Belfast to the border and incursion deep into the border. A rather simplified comparison perhaps, but one that I think rings true.

You're assuming they're just bombing the shit out of random buildings. My understanding is they're destroying Hezbollah's resupply routes so they can isolate them for an attack, which is pretty sound military practice in theory.

Your British Army analogy doesn't hold water because the British could be reasonably certain the Irish government would arrest anyone they found on their side of the border lobbing mortar rounds, and they have a diplomatic channel to the Irish government to protest if they didn't. That isn't the case here; the Lebanese government can't control Hezbollah, who are effectively "a state within a state" in Southern Lebanon. Now take your British army argument and have the Irish state attacking, and what do you think the British response would be? This is what I keep saying; Hezbollah, not the Israelis, are the agressors here, and they could stop the fighting with an overt withdrawal from areas in rocket range of Israel, but they won't, because this situation is perfect for them. The IDF are fucking it up, world opinion is making the Israelis look both aggressive and incompetent, and Hezbollah is getting a raft of new recruits. And its not as if all the apartments and roads being blown up even belong to Hezbollah, so they don't give a shit about all the property and people damage. Add in the fact that they are Shia, so getting blown up for a cause is a career choice for these people and they've got the perfect setup.

Sorry Munkey, I know I might seem callous because you know people and have friends there, but I guess because I don't really care about either side I can be a bit more dispassionate about it.

 

[ECA]

You're assuming they're just bombing the shit out of random buildings. My understanding is they're destroying Hezbollah's resupply routes so they can isolate them for an attack, which is pretty sound military practice in theory.

The Israelis are saying its the latter, in reality its more like "THEY'RE COMING RIGHT FOR US BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" at any building that looks like fun.

 

[Munkey]

You're assuming they're just bombing the shit out of random buildings. My understanding is they're destroying Hezbollah's resupply routes so they can isolate them for an attack, which is pretty sound military practice in theory.

Your British Army analogy doesn't hold water because the British could be reasonably certain the Irish government would arrest anyone they found on their side of the border lobbing mortar rounds, and they have a diplomatic channel to the Irish government to protest if they didn't. That isn't the case here; the Lebanese government can't control Hezbollah, who are effectively "a state within a state" in Southern Lebanon. Now take your British army argument and have the Irish state attacking, and what do you think the British response would be? This is what I keep saying; Hezbollah, not the Israelis, are the agressors here, and they could stop the fighting with an overt withdrawal from areas in rocket range of Israel, but they won't, because this situation is perfect for them. The IDF are fucking it up, world opinion is making the Israelis look both aggressive and incompetent, and Hezbollah is getting a raft of new recruits. And its not as if all the apartments and roads being blown up even belong to Hezbollah, so they don't give a shit about all the property and people damage. Add in the fact that they are Shia, so getting blown up for a cause is a career choice for these people and they've got the perfect setup.

Sorry Munkey, I know I might seem callous because you know people and have friends there, but I guess because I don't really care about either side I can be a bit more dispassionate about it.

I am refering to the Ireland situation in the past, not now, when snipers would take out soldiers, bomb areas and other such shennanigans. I diddnt quite see the Irish government going out to arrest the various paramilitary groups.

And also, the problem is that the Isrealis are bombing the shit out of random buildings or anything they suspect, as in the 28 fruit workers killed today, loading fruit from a building. Another five dead when they bombed bridges. You suggest they're operating on a sound military basis, I say they're operating on paranoia.

Also, Hezbollah have requested a cease-fire, the isrealis have denied it. It's not that theres no dimplomatic solution, it's the case, in my view, that the Isreali's have taken the US standpoint of invasion and war in the name of safety, that being their own safety and not that of the country they are invading. The lack of response by US seems to validate this in their eyes, as was stated in the media a while ago. And before you claim that they are seeking a 'permenant cease-fire', do they honestly think that their invasion, bombing of civilians and other perpetrated war crimes will honestly induce hezbollah, or indeed its growing number of supporters within Lebanon, into stopping any action in the future? Particularly when it appears that Isreal is unwilling to seek a diplomatic resolution in favour of war.

And I don't know anyone there, they were all flown back with me when we were evacuated. What does make me passionate about this conflict is that everyone seems to be taking the view that "oh, its just another middle east conflict, theres nothing we can do to stop the terrible arabs," portraying Hezbollah as evil and the Isreali's as the unfair victim. The world needs to understand that Isreal is just as guilty and that the situation is going to continue to escalate until someone else steps in, a situation that seems unlikely due to the l'aissez-faire attitude of the west. Any hope of a cease-fire diminishes with time, and Hezbollah are certainly not going to concede to one again in the future if Isreal does procede with its occupation scheme, a return to the very conditions that created the organistation.

And it's not only Shia's who are being targeted, the large christian population within Lebanon is too, who have no ties to Hezbollah. Isreal just seems to want to stir up a hornets nest in order to justify their response.

Also, I do believe that the gradual intergration employed in Lebanon before the war of Hezbollah to the government, was the best way of disarming hezbollah.

Forceful disarming will not work.

 

[DaGaffer]

I am refering to the Ireland situation in the past, not now, when snipers would take out soldiers, bomb areas and other such shennanigans. I diddnt quite see the Irish government going out to arrest the various paramilitary groups.

No, even in the bad old days, the Irish government at least paid lip-service to the idea of running terrorists down in the Republic. The IRA did fire mortars from the Republic into the north, and now and then the British Army chased them over the border. But the point is, what they did wasn't condoned by the Irish government and they did arrest people.

And also, the problem is that the Isrealis are bombing the shit out of random buildings or anything they suspect, as in the 28 fruit workers killed today, loading fruit from a building. Another five dead when they bombed bridges. You suggest they're operating on a sound military basis, I say they're operating on paranoia.

Neither you or I know whether it was fruit or AK-47s.

Also, Hezbollah have requested a cease-fire, the isrealis have denied it. It's not that theres no dimplomatic solution, it's the case, in my view, that the Isreali's have taken the US standpoint of invasion and war in the name of safety, that being their own safety and not that of the country they are invading. The lack of response by US seems to validate this in their eyes, as was stated in the media a while ago. And before you claim that they are seeking a 'permenant cease-fire', do they honestly think that their invasion, bombing of civilians and other perpetrated war crimes will honestly induce hezbollah, or indeed its growing number of supporters within Lebanon, into stopping any action in the future? Particularly when it appears that Isreal is unwilling to seek a diplomatic resolution in favour of war.

Well, duh. Israel has always taken that view. Their geography dictates it. As for whether they see themselves as having US backing, I don't think they care too much, but the US, because of the shit its in elsewhere with the Shia, can't afford a Hezbollah 'win' anyway. And Hezbollah requested a ceasefire while still firing rockets into Israel. Why would anyone let the person who shot first carry on firing at them and accept their call for a cease-fire?

And I don't know anyone there, they were all flown back with me when we were evacuated. What does make me passionate about this conflict is that everyone seems to be taking the view that "oh, its just another middle east conflict, theres nothing we can do to stop the terrible arabs," portraying Hezbollah as evil and the Isreali's as the unfair victim. The world needs to understand that Isreal is just as guilty and that the situation is going to continue to escalate until someone else steps in, a situation that seems unlikely due to the l'aissez-faire attitude of the west. Any hope of a cease-fire diminishes with time, and Hezbollah are certainly not going to concede to one again in the future if Isreal does procede with its occupation scheme, a return to the very conditions that created the organistation.

Actually the world simply isn't portraying the conflict the way you're describing it, but it doesn't matter, the UN or even the US can't simply 'step-in' as you put it, until after a cease-fire. On previous form, when the UN isn't placed as a proper buffer zone between forces its a disaster (look at the Balkans), so Israel is pushing forward as far as it can to create a buffer that a third force can sit in. It may be unpalatable to you but I'm pretty sure the Israelis really don't want to occupy South Lebanon again; it cost them too much last time.

And it's not only Shia's who are being targeted, the large christian population within Lebanon is too, who have no ties to Hezbollah. Isreal just seems to want to stir up a hornets nest in order to justify their response.

No but the Shias are the ones who gain, and they don't care if the other Lebanese lose.

Also, I do believe that the gradual intergration employed in Lebanon before the war of Hezbollah to the government, was the best way of disarming hezbollah.

Forceful disarming will not work.

You're probably right. As I've already said, I think the IDF are fucking it up and unless something changes they're not going to dislodge Hezbollah anyway, but unfortunately for Lebanon, they ran out of time in the process of integrating Hezbollah (or maybe Hezbollah didn't wan't to be integrated; they could come out of this as de facto rulers of Lebanon).

 

[Furr]

This seems to be everyones argument to justify civilian losses, 'war isnt fair.' It just seems a very l'aissez faire attitude. Lebanon is nothing like Saudi, or even any of the gulf countries which are considered more liberal, indeed I'd even go as far as to describe it as European. This misconception seems to be expounded upon by the media, who appear to give it the appearance of a country full of fundamentalists, hell bent on destruction. Before the conflict, and for a short time after its start until Isreali's escalation, support for Hezbollah was low, found more in the South where they'd suffered under Isreali occupation. The rest of the country was sedate, starting to regain its status as an economic hub for the region, a status it had held before the civil war, at great cost to the economy, building vast tracts of road, bridges, infrastructure etc. Thanks to the efforts of Hariri, the guy assassinated by the Syrians, who is revered as almost a saint in Lebanon, the people were brought together, no matter their religion, and almost single-handedly kick-starting the economy after the war, Lebanon was returning to normality. What worries me, is that after this conflict, Lebanon will have a very very hard time to even undo a small bit of the damage done by the Isrealis. Why should a whole country be forced to suffer because of the actions of a few people and the ego of another country over the border?

I know it bad.. but i've gone beyond caring about the middle east. Everyone says its "the minority" buts thats usually the case with pretty much everything, and if it is a minority shouldn't the majority of so called "moderate" muslims be taking them to task. Just doesn't seem to happen. Instead they igonore the problem. From a western, wait! World that isn't muslim, islamic dominated countries are percieved as full of fundementalists and terrorists.

From Africa to India to Russia to Europe to America to Indonesia etc etc Islam seems to be causing problems. Im not racist in terms of race, but I just don't like Islam, I don't agree with it, I don't agree with what it does to women, I don't like it full stop, and alot of people from all races be they Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Budhist or Jew see Islam in the same way. Islam claims is a religion of peace yet what is preached is very different to what is seen.

 

[old.user4556]

I notice that it's "politically cool" to support the political underdog.

 

[Escape]

It's more a case of thinking rationally than "supporting" the underdog.

Everything Israel has done in the past three weeks has been to the benefit of Hizbollah and Iran. Hasan Nasrallah has seen his popularity rocket whilst Israel alienates itself.

The Iranian PM can now shoot rhetoric about wiping Israel off the map without inviting condemnations! He must be pleased with himself for manipulating global perceptions in less than a year.

Israel is literally digging a hole for itself by driving into Lebanon. The vast majority of Lebanese voted for a democratic government, that'll probably change in the next election.

 

[Wij]

Perhaps it will but Lebanon is never going to be a serious military threat to Isreal. Isreal can gain itself a U.N. buffer to keep the rockets away and it's used to being hated.

 

[Escape]

Lebanon never was a "serious military threat", that's the whole point.

All it takes is a few dozen men, freshly trained and equipped from Iran - or wherever - to start the war all over. Lebanon was actually making progress, sidelining Hizbollah, developing it's economy, being ruled by a multi-faith government. Now it's a battered pawn again.

 

[Wij]

Lebanon never was a "serious military threat", that's the whole point.

Amazing how the same facts can lead to a totally different 'point'.

 

[Munkey]

To divert a bit from the other arguments: Logged onto the BBC today to check out the news, and saw another article on Lebanon. A bit hesitant to read it, as most of the articles simply regorge information that I see on TV or from previous articles, I'm very glad that I did.

See the article here

A very well written article on how the rest of the country feels, and why the country is being affected differently than from the civil war. When I was in Lebanon, I was in one of the Christian areas and felt rather safe, confident that the Isrealis wouldnt bomb my area, except for the army base behind the apartment. Now it would appear that few areas are regarded as safe to be in, whether because of Hezbollah or the Isrealis.

 

[Yaka]

missed this on sky news, he always pwns the news reporter


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

 

[old.user4556]

George Galloway is a patronising and arrogant fucktard, i'd gladly like to set him on fire.

Edit; i've just realised, has Gorgeous George developed a bit of an Asian/Arab twang to his accent?? Man that's a whole new level to that man's comedy act.

 

[Munkey]

Ah, I caught this going downstairs and into the kitchen earlier, I merley glanced at the TV. I diddnt realise it was George Galloway. To be honest, I haven't got the time for him. I agree with some of his points, but I cannot agree with the man.

 

[Wij]

missed this on sky news, he always pwns the news reporter


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

pwns noone tbh - just embarrases himself by not answering questions and just going off on his egotistical 'I am the saviour of teh Arabs' rants. Rude, obnoxious, self-serving weasel of a fucktard who I would gladly see gutted. Yes, Hezbollah never did anything wrong ever and Isreali children should be strangled at birth. Nice sensible, balanced viewpoint, which would cause instant peace and love throughout the multiverse if only everyone was intelligent enough to realise he was right about every-fucking-thing.


COCK !!!

 

[Raven]

one could imagine him in charge of some middle eastern state, lots of shouting, lots of ranting, he may well be right but he just goes off on one and nobody really listens,

 

[nath]

pwns noone tbh - just embarrases himself by not answering questions and just going off on his egotistical 'I am the saviour of teh Arabs' rants. Rude, obnoxious, self-serving weasel of a fucktard who I would gladly see gutted.

Nath in agreement with Wij shockah!!!

 

[Wij]

Nath in agreement with Wij shockah!!!

:wub:

 

[old.user4556]

pwns noone tbh - just embarrases himself by not answering questions and just going off on his egotistical 'I am the saviour of teh Arabs' rants. Rude, obnoxious, self-serving weasel of a fucktard who I would gladly see gutted. Yes, Hezbollah never did anything wrong ever and Isreali children should be strangled at birth. Nice sensible, balanced viewpoint, which would cause instant peace and love throughout the multiverse if only everyone was intelligent enough to realise he was right about every-fucking-thing.


COCK !!!

You said it!

 

[Trem]

Nath in agreement with Wij shockah!!!

HA!! Wij n00b.

I have always agreed with him...


....I have to or he belts me

 

[Scouse]

Coming late to this and just having watched Galloway I have to say this:


He's got a fucking point. He makes it badly and littered with insults but he's not wrong.


You only have to look at our government's tacit approval of the invasion and put two and two together and hey presto! We're a load of hypocrites.

Well, I can't vote the cocksuckers out myself and even if I could another bunch of cocksuckers would take their place and the good old British public would bend over and take the new brand of spin right in the arse like we have done since Thatcher beat civil disobediance right out of us.