Hebrew word for disproportionate?

[Calaen]

Bollocks. They've had years to sort it out. Its not our problem.

Frankly, I wish they'd all just fuckoff. I'm sick of hearing about it.

here here

 

[Mofo8]

I suspect some posting on these forums support Israel purely for racist reasons - They don't like arabs, they don't like muslims and Israelis as presented in the western media appear wholesome, distinctly white and English speaking.

If you were to describe the State of Israel to someone from another planet, they'd be baffled that the rest of the world allow it to continue as it has done:

They're in violation of several hundred UN resolutions condeming them for various actions - They ignore the international community.

The USA, due to the politically and financially powerful jewish lobby, has vetoed every serious UN resolution condeming Israel, despite being happy to use UN resolutions as justification to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

Amnesty International has accused the IDF of carrying out war crimes.

They seem to think they can condemn so called acts of terror while at the same time threatening, and carrying out, political assassinations in other countries.

They claim the right to pre-emptive self defence as some kind of God given right, but seem to deny that right to people who see them as occupiers.

The have had a comprehensive and secretive weapons of mass destruction program running for some time now. OK for them? Not OK for North Korea?

The modern State of Israel is is some respects an apartheid state. Non-jews living in Israel do not share all the rights of Jewish citizens. Arabs and other non-jews are not subject to conscription, but therefore lose many of the benefits that come from having done national service: social welfare benefits, unemployment and pension pay, mortgage support, health insurance, education grants and other benefits. Extreme Orthodox Jews who are exempted from service or simply not recruited gain the benefits as if they had. Arabs Muslims and Christians don't. And don't get me started on the bloody wall!

It seems OK to condem non-secular states such as Iran and Taliban Afghanistan, but it's OK for Israel, who's 'right to exist' centers on religion. It's funny to think that anyone here could convert to Judaism tomorrow and therefore automatically gain the right to enter Israel as a citizens, whereas many arabs thrown off their land have no right of return.

Someone mentioned the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas are proxies of Syria and Iran. What about Israel's proxies? Like the Maronite Christian Militias (Phalangists) who spent 48 hours in 1982 butchering at least 800 inhabitants of two refugee camps in Lebanon (that's the Israeli figure - other claims go into the thousands). This happened after the IDF sealed off the camps and watched from the side lines. Israels' own inquiry into the massacre found that Ariel Sharon bore personal responsibility.

I'd go on, but it's bloody hot, and I can't be bothered. The only solution to the problems of the Middle East is for Israel to stop acting like Nazis, treat the people of Palestine as human fucking beings, and maybe then surrounding arab nations will fully recognise them and we can all get along. It would probably help if the US stopped shovelling billions of dollars and weapons at them too. Oh, and disarm them of their nukes...

 

[DaGaffer]

The only solution to the problems of the Middle East is for Israel to stop acting like Nazis, treat the people of Palestine as human fucking beings, and maybe then surrounding arab nations will fully recognise them and we can all get along.

Rubbish. And unbelievably naive. Israel is a gift-wrapped excuse for all the Islamic world's failings. If it didn't exist they'd have to invent it. They're fighting people who deny their very right to exist. Think about where the Israelis came from, where they are now and try to put yourself in their shoes. In that context their attitudes are more than understandable. If a nation a couple of hundred miles long and fifty miles wide is put under siege for 60 years, what do you expect? Moonbeams and roses?

As for whether the Israelis commit a kind of apartheid, sure they do, but their attitude is that moslems have the whole Islamic world to bugger off to, they have one small state. if they didn't exercise the controls they do, demographics would kill them (arabs breed faster, its as simple as that).

Like I said, I don't see the Israelis as any different ethnically from the arabs, and I take offence at being called racist just because I don't buy the PR of the poor hard-done-to Palestinians (who didn't even have a cultural identity until after Israel was founded).

 

[Escape]

That was well put mofo, but you're trying to communicate with fanatics who cannot reason(just see above). And now someone will cover his eyes and label you an "anti-semite!".

 

[Mofo8]

Rubbish. And unbelievably naive. Israel is a gift-wrapped excuse for all the Islamic world's failings. If it didn't exist they'd have to invent it. They're fighting people who deny their very right to exist. Think about where the Israelis came from, where they are now and try to put yourself in their shoes. In that context their attitudes are more than understandable. If a nation a couple of hundred miles long and fifty miles wide is put under siege for 60 years, what do you expect? Moonbeams and roses?

Bollocks. So the fact the Jews were persecuted in Europe for hundreds of years gives them the right to treat others badly? You ask us to think about were the Israelis came from - Europe? Most jews are Ashkenazi, meaning they're descended from jews who went first to Italy (1st and 2nd century) and then to Germany (7th and 8th century). It would be a bit like me, a modern Scot, laying claim to a chunk of Ireland.

As for whether the Israelis commit a kind of apartheid, sure they do, but their attitude is that moslems have the whole Islamic world to bugger off to, they have one small state. if they didn't exercise the controls they do, demographics would kill them (arabs breed faster, its as simple as that).

Arabs breed faster? Yeah they do, but so what? They also have a higher infant mortality rate. Sadly for the jews it's estimated that sometime between 2035 and 2048 Arab Israelis will be in the majority. Multiple choice question time What will they do then?

a) Accept the fact gracefully and live in peace with the arab majority?
b) Do a wee bit of Ethnic cleansing, papping most of them into the Palestinian West Bank or similar to maintain their majority?
c) Treat them like subhumans for the next 30 or 40 years and hope that that keeps their numbers down a wee bit?

The arabs that live in Israel have done so since 1948 or before... why should they bugger of to another arab country? Black people in the UK... why don't we get rid of the lot of them? Their are plenty of other black countries they could go to. And the Scottish Executive could solve all the sectarian problems of the west of Scotland by simply exporting all us troublesome papists over to the Republic of Ireland or Spain or somewhere, leaving the Protestant majority in peace to have their marches and suchlike

Like I said, I don't see the Israelis as any different ethnically from the arabs, and I take offence at being called racist just because I don't buy the PR of the poor hard-done-to Palestinians (who didn't even have a cultural identity until after Israel was founded).

Jeebus! The don't need a cultural identity to be hard done by and treated like shit. They were simply the muslim arabs and other non-jewish peoples who happened to fucking live there! When you say you don't believe the PR - could you clarify that?

Oh and what are your opinions of Irgun and the Stern Gang? Terrorists? Freedom Fighters? Insurgents?

 

[old.user4556]

The sooner the west invade the middle east, declare war, carpet bomb what's necessary and just take the oil; the better.

/related tangent

 

[Mofo8]

[highlight]WARNING: link contains graphic pictueres of, amongst others, dead kids. Click only if you can deal with that.[/highlight]

Measured response

 

[old.user4556]

Two things:

1) Please put a warning with that link.

2) War is war, civilians are always going to be slaughtered. Terrible yes, but that's war. Wasn't it Hezbollah that started the shelling anyway? *shrug*

 

[throdgrain]

It particularly is when Hezbollah DELIBERATELY put thier millitary stuff around civillians. Then when the strike hits the civvys die as well, and the BBC can put pictures of bleeding arab children on the screen. And some of you lot can wail about it. And the civvys can continue supporting Hezbollah. Even though it was Hezbollah who got em killed in the first place.
And so it goes on and on and fucking on...

 

[throdgrain]

Measured response

And those pictures are fucking shit by the way.

 

[Escape]

It particularly is when Hezbollah DELIBERATELY put thier millitary stuff around civillians. Then when the strike hits the civvys die as well, and the BBC can put pictures of bleeding arab children on the screen. And some of you lot can wail about it. And the civvys can continue supporting Hezbollah. Even though it was Hezbollah who got em killed in the first place.
And so it goes on and on and fucking on...

Israel is bombing areas which have no connection to Hezbollah. Why do you think Western countires are in such a hurry to evacuate their citizens?


Lebanese politics are complicated by decades of war and occupation. Hezbollah was funded by Israel at one point, which emphasises the twisted allegiences in a country which finally elected a democratic government opposed to Syria and Hezbollah.

But the government cannot move on Hizbollah for risk of civil war and the respect they earnt by resisting the Israeli occupation. (How long did it take to disarm the IRA? )


Iran knows it will be attacked before it can develop nuclear weapons. It's choosing to have the war now, with the US busy in Iraq. Israel is being played and they know it. But Israelis expect Ehud to be extremely responsive, like his predecessors. None of them brought Israel any closer to peace and Ehud will go further down the spiral.


btw, the Israelis started the shelling, after Hezbollah killed 8 Israeli soldiers and took 2 hostage.

 

[Mofo8]

Two things:

1) Please put a warning with that link.

2) War is war, civilians are always going to be slaughtered. Terrible yes, but that's war. Wasn't it Hezbollah that started the shelling anyway? *shrug*

Sorry about not putting a warning. Yes, there will always be civilian victims in war, but what bothers many people is the level of suffering being exacted on the Lebanese population, infrastructure and government versus that suffered by the Israeli population. The Israelis have (thanks to the yanks) weapon systems capable in theory of being fairly accurate. When used in action laser guided bomb units can sometimes go awry, or faulty intelligence can lead to the wrong target being struck, but the Israelis seem to be making an active choice not to utilise these so-called smart weapons. Instead they're pounding the shit out of Lebanon with 155mm artillery, MLRS systems and 500lb iron bombs. They are also making it very hard for the civilian population to move to safety... destroying bridges, cratering road and attacking moving vehicles, putting the main airport out of operation and enacting a naval blockade.

It particularly is when Hezbollah DELIBERATELY put thier millitary stuff around civillians. Then when the strike hits the civvys die as well, and the BBC can put pictures of bleeding arab children on the screen. And some of you lot can wail about it. And the civvys can continue supporting Hezbollah. Even though it was Hezbollah who got em killed in the first place.
And so it goes on and on and fucking on...

See above... how are the civilians meant to leave southern Lebanon? This current situation is asymetrical warfare. Do you honestly expect Hezbollah to drive towards the Israeli border en-masse for a toe-to-toe conventional confrontation with the IDF?

The whole situation reeks of a set-up. Israel have carried out prisoner exchanges in the past with Hezbollah. They were obviously itching for a reason to get back into Southern Lebanon and this is it. Maybe they want Lebanon's water? (the one natural resource in which Lebanon has plenty of and Israel needs badly... especially with all those illegal settlements to tend to)

I reckon that behind the scenes the USA must be a wee bit annoyed with Israel - "Iran? Syria? Hey guys, we're not ready yet!"

 

[JingleBells]

Lebanese politics are complicated by decades of war and occupation. Hezbollah was funded by Israel at one point, which emphasises the twisted allegiences in a country which finally elected a democratic government opposed to Syria and Hezbollah.

Have you got a source to the Israeli funding of Hezbollah? I was under the impression (and so is wikipedia [yes I know it isn't always right]) that Hezbollah is completely anti-israel.

As for the general feeling of disproportionality, isn't that the general thing about war, surely a country would only goto war unless they thought they had a chance of winning.

I dread to think what would have happened in WWII if we had the same media as now back then (Dresden bombing, US carpet bombing + nukes etc.).

 

[throdgrain]

I dread to think what would have happened in WWII if we had the same media as now back then (Dresden bombing, US carpet bombing + nukes etc.).

Absolutely.

 

[Ch3tan]

No one seems to have mentioned the fact that Hesbollah is supported by Lebanons shia muslims, the Christian and Suni minority are the ones in charge of the Lebanese government and thus have very little impact. If they chose to try and oust Hesbollah it would more than likely result in civil war, but hey, maybe that is what Isreal is hoping for.

Oh and am I the only one that thinks that Isreal should have negotiated to get their soldiers back before retaliating? Those guys are most probably dead now.

 

[Calaen]

Its gives us something to read in the news though :-( I am sick of hearing how the british government are not doing enough to get their people out.

 

[Tom]

Well it is a war zone.

"boo hoo, I couldn't get through on the phone"

"boo hoo, they kept me waiting outside"

I feel little sympathy for whingers. What did they expect living there?

 

[Mofo8]

* waits for Tom to stop sounding like a cock *

* decides to stop waiting and go to the pub as it may take some time *

 

[tris-]

actually i agree with him, despite his gingerness

 

[Wij]

Even the BBC can show that ordinary Isrealis are not having a great time. Would you just put up with this ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5193306.stm

 

[Mofo8]

Even the BBC can show that ordinary Isrealis are not having a great time. Would you just put up with this ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5193306.stm

From that website:

"There have, of course, been far fewer civilian casualties here in Israel than those killed in Israeli attacks on Lebanon"

We're talking about a 10 to 1 ratio here. 300 dead lebanese (fuck all to do with Hezbollah) versus 30 dead Iraelis. And one third of the lebanese are children. Measured response my fucking arse!

I'm sick of people trying to tie in Hezbollah and Hamas with Al-Qaeda or how-ever it's spelled. The first two are terrorists in the same way that the French Resistance movement were terrorists to the Germans or the jewish Irgun movement were terrorist. Al-Qaeda is a made up organisation. Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq have something in common. They WERE all relatively secular states, mostly muslim, but not saudi or iran-like. All that can come of this is that we end up with a couple more radical anti-western anti-jew islamic states and/or insurgency's on our hands.

 

[Mofo8]

and I don't want to hear any more of this shite about Hezbollah hiding themselves amongst the civilan population. In Paisley there's a Royal Engineers Territorial barracks/HQ less than 100 yards from civilians. In Glasgow the Royal Marine Reserve HQ is equally close to builtup areas. I work a mile or two across the water from Faslane or HM Naval Base Clyde or whatever it's called... you know... where the UK's nuclear deterrent lives.

 

[Wij]

From that website:

"There have, of course, been far fewer civilian casualties here in Israel than those killed in Israeli attacks on Lebanon"

We're talking about a 10 to 1 ratio here. 300 dead lebanese (fuck all to do with Hezbollah) versus 30 dead Iraelis. And one third of the lebanese are children. Measured response my fucking arse!

I'm sick of people trying to tie in Hezbollah and Hamas with Al-Qaeda or how-ever it's spelled. The first two are terrorists in the same way that the French Resistance movement were terrorists to the Germans or the jewish Irgun movement were terrorist. Al-Qaeda is a made up organisation. Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq have something in common. They WERE all relatively secular states, mostly muslim, but not saudi or iran-like. All that can come of this is that we end up with a couple more radical anti-western anti-jew islamic states and/or insurgency's on our hands.

It's not the point. If England was firing rockets into Scotland (silly example) and the government did nothing about it, you'd just sit there and witter to the UN would you ?

Who's trying to link Hezbollah to Al-Qaeda ? Wouldn't make any difference to me one way or the other.

 

[Calaen]

* waits for Tom to stop sounding like a cock *

* decides to stop waiting and go to the pub as it may take some time *

you are wrong why should I give a fuck about british people living in Beruit? I dont they are living there lives over there by choice. oh noes there is going to be fighting quick lets blame the british government for not getting us out quick enough fuck off and make your own way out.

 

[throdgrain]

Dont worry cal. If you simply accept the solution proposed on here that its always the "western world" thats in the wrong, and its always accepted sensible thinking thats wrong, you will have the world sorted out in no time

 

[throdgrain]

What a shame though ...

Bit of luck a bomb will land on his head

 

[DaGaffer]

and I don't want to hear any more of this shite about Hezbollah hiding themselves amongst the civilan population. In Paisley there's a Royal Engineers Territorial barracks/HQ less than 100 yards from civilians. In Glasgow the Royal Marine Reserve HQ is equally close to builtup areas. I work a mile or two across the water from Faslane or HM Naval Base Clyde or whatever it's called... you know... where the UK's nuclear deterrent lives.

And the award for most fatuous comparison ever goes to...

Last time I looked the Paisley Royal Engineers barracks weren't firing missiles into The Republic of East Kilbride.

And no-one's linking Hezbollah to Al-Qaeda except you. A lot of us are linking Hezbollah to the Lebanese and Syrian governments. Hezbollah and Hamas, as you pointed out, may be 'resistance movements' in the manner of the Irgun or the French Resistance, but labelling yourself a 'resistance movement' doesn't absolve you of responsibility for civilian casualties (or automatically give you the moral high ground, I remember a 'resistance movement' called the Khmer Rouge). As I said earlier, Hezbollah are quite happy to have the Israelis create as many civilian casualties as possible, its good PR for them, and its not as if the Lebanese are even 'their' people, so they don't give a fuck. And I'm not surprised that there's a 10-1 death ratio; that's what you get if you fuck with the Israelis. How many times do they have to be attacked before the Arab world gets the message?

 

[JBP|]

I blame the Hitler.

 

[Munkey]

I just arrived back from lebanon today, spent the last 3 days being shuttled about from chinook to hms illustrious to chinook to cyprus to greece and finally, just now, home. Lebanon is being systematically taken apart, its bridges, roads, communications and basic facilities being destroyed and left in rubble. The airport, of no strategic importance after its first and second bombing, is continuing to be bombed, with aviation fuel being destroyed (despite the fact that the lebanese army has the total of 7 jets) and any truck, no matter its size or direction, is blown up should it be suspected at all of carrying weapons. I lived next door to a lebanese army base, and every night when the bombing began they'd run out of the base and hide in the underground garages of the surrounding apartments as they have no way of protecting themselves, being conscripted into a situation of which they have no wish to be a part of. Despite this, Isreal has begun to bomb army facilites, despite earlier promising not to do so, and has begun to force the armys hand. Indeed, the armys weakness, a result of Syria's occupation and the concentration of rebuilding lebanon and trying to revitalise its economy (something Isreal has now set back years thanks to the bombing of routes and highways which were brand new and built at great expense), has led to a shift in support to hezb allah, seeing them as the only people capable of defending their country from Isreali aggresion. Having been there and witnessed it myself, I view Isreals action in the North as nothing more than a show of superiority, choosing to terrify the populace. Every night thered be 3 or so explosions in my area of Beirut. If Isreal were truly serious, they'd have bombed them all in the first few days.

I agree that Hezb allah were wrong for taking the prisoners. However I believe that Lebanon had been taking the correct course in reducing the organisations influence, gradually integrating them into their society (they only have 1 member of parliament) rather than a forced disarming that could've led to another devastating civil war.

I believe that Isreali attacks began as a way of dissauding Hezb allah and trying to force them into returning the captured soliders. However, when international opinion failed to effectivley critcise them and instead supported them (i.e. Britain and America) they decided to escelate it into something much more serious.

There is a reason as to why this organisation is popular in the southern regions of lebanon, and Isreal is doing nothing in the way of harming them effectivly. Instead innocent civilians are being caught in the crossfire, with Isreal claiming "Legitimate target" with little proof to offer in its support. Sitting in an underground car park surrounded by scared soilders and families, watching the TV live feeds and waiting for the next explosion has obviosuly done nothing in my support for Isreal, however the pictures of children bodies being piled onto pickup trucks, the bombing of hospitals and innocent civilians has done nothing towards this either.

Current Lebanese death toll - in the hundreds
Current Isreali death toll - less than 50 if that.

Disproportionate? I agree.

 

[Paradroid]

...
Think about where the Israelis came from, where they are now and try to put yourself in their shoes. ...

I'm a Scots/Irish catholic, I hear their pain buddie! Oh wait, we have the Vatican.

On a serious note, they came from the bible didn't they?

What about Plato's Atlantis? It seems like a credible claim to me, based on current thinking. Lets give the Greeks their Atlantis! I'm not using England very much these days (and I do like Greek food)...

It's not the point. If England was firing rockets into Scotland (silly example) and the government did nothing about it, you'd just sit there and witter to the UN would you ?
...

Ahh but if a Scots new-age-jacobite-like terrorist group (hiding out in the borders) were firing rockets at England, you wouldn't expect Glasgow/Edinburgh airports bombed, ports blockaded, country on knees, etc. That would be just silly. Wait, I mean Nazi. (But lets not give the Germans a bad name here, they were very efficient at their land-grab exercises with the ol' mechanised infantry. Also, they wouldn't have stood around for all these years waiting for "aid" in the form of cool US high-tech weaponry. By 1956 they would have had bio-engineered camels with turbo-boosted bottoms and lasers on their heads, skimming over dunes, swatting Fremen, tending the spice.)



:england:
Atlantis (Uber Alles)