h2h savages

[Amadon]

Originally posted by Ithurts
To be honest almost every class in the game is balanced without buffs and only some really benefit from using buffs and thats why imbalance is occured.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by svartmetall
Check the part where I say INFILS should be nerfed

It's PA damage which is in the Critical Strike spec. Now guess which assassin classes have Critical Strike spec and which one of them uses 2h weapons to perform massive PA's?

 

[poppamies]

dont stop thewhining just yet, sure some of u havnt posted her yet =)

 

[Staan]

My friar ownz savages any days of the week aswell as zerkers. wtf u talkin about ? i just keep evading their hits, bah ... big hammer yea that hit hard but they can't me :wink: kobby troll valkyn ... they all dead meat for my holy staff. pwned i tell u ... pwned them so hard i was so stunned seeing how i owned them.
























yea well ok they conned green.

 

[Garnet]

lol i must be doing something wrong because when i quad hit, which is very rare i struggle to even exceed hiting for more than 700 damage.

BTW quads are rare its just you who was unlucky

 

[Ithurts]

Originally posted by Garnet
BTW quads are rare its just you who was unlucky

Quads aren't rare, if u have played a savage u would know quads aren't rare...
I atleast do seem to quad more when doin positional styles, but cant provide any proof on that though...

My suggestion is remove buffs and u will see rvr balance!

 

[NP_Finster]

<Copy of post to the offtopic novamir thread>

Damage done by svg multi hits actually equals dualwield damage over time. Just that the quad can do a lucky frontload.

However: factor in a self dps buff, a powerful self haste buff and the fact that savages routinely cap personal quickness, because they don t care about styled front load and you easily have higher damage over time than other realms dualwielders. On the other hand the heavily reduced weaponskill cuts down on that damage while attacking hard targets.

Yes, savages need some toning down of their damage (i personally believe the self dps buff and the self haste buff should take a hit). 2hand savages are an entirely different problem due to tank weaponskill backed up by those buffs. On a sidenote don t forget that savages are the only light tank with a 'modern' melee style line as probably is mythics vision for the style line overhaul. When dualwield and celtic dual lines as well as basic weaponspecs are revisited more powerful effects are likely to be added to those and the h2h line will not look quite as overpowering in terms of utility.

My 2cp and greetings,

Finster, playing Kunry the Svg for Vigrid

 

[NP_Finster]

Dumbfounded realization this very moment:

Savages use h2h line for increased damage via multihits. Damage over time while using h2h is identical to a dualwielding BM/merc: 165% singlewield unstyled damage at 50 spec.

Savage is overpowered in its h2h form because it is a light tank with selfbuff line and 2.5 spec points, as the 50 h2h savage essentially gets the 50 dualwield line fully specced for free.

Problem solved.

Solution pending (give 1.0 spec points or a speccable multi hit line with 2.0 spec points?).

Finster, playing Kunry the Svg for Vigrid

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by NP_Finster

Solution pending (give 1.0 spec points or a speccable multi hit line with 2.0 spec points?).

giving or taking spec points changes the class to much, so no not a good change (atleast without sever testing which mythic does NOT do) nor is moving the multi hit part . Which means h2h is severly nerfed compared to 2H.

if you feel the need to nerf the savage down scale their damage or weaponskill on 2handers. Or something similar more conventianal.


Btw tildson I will believe what the hit rate is when its actual proven. Atm there are proven logs of it in duels and with hitting keep doors, which prove that quad hits are reasonable rare (around 10%).

and finster
"Damage done by svg multi hits actually equals dualwield damage over time. Just that the quad can do a lucky frontload."

was more meant that the amount of swings is equal, not the amount of damage. As its proven that average swings of H2H= average swing of DW'ers.

 

[NP_Finster]

Originally posted by driwen


and finster
"Damage done by svg multi hits actually equals dualwield damage over time. Just that the quad can do a lucky frontload."

was more meant that the amount of swings is equal, not the amount of damage. As its proven that average swings of H2H= average swing of DW'ers.

Think that was exactly what i was trying to express.

I m by no means interested in playing a gutted class, but i realize that the current mechanic is unbalancing the savage as compared to mercs and BMs. Maybe reducing the multi hit ration by assessing it to 2/3rds h2h spec might solve something, but nothing we write here is going to have any amount of impact anyways,

regards, Fin aka Kunry the Svg

 

[tildson]

Sorry, i cant be arsed spending more time trying to convince the BW-community that the quad-rate is xx %.

If you dont believe me or take my word for it, fine read my above comments But take my word for it, the quad-hits happends on almost every target - whereas you hit 2-5times. Sometimes you quad twice, sometimes u quado none, but it is common that you quadhit.

When albs, hibs and mids(h2h savages aswell) are SAYING that the quad-rate is abit high, you still can realize it. I could log 1hour of RvR just to prove it to one person on BW, but i have better things to do - and if you want to flame me for saying this, please go on i dont take any offense.

 

[parzi]

ok enough of talking bullshit and whine:

here's some facts in form of a log:


log of me in normal rvr vigrid guildgrp assisting kunry:

swings: 406
Total misses: 14
Single hits: 143 58.85%
Double hits: 69 28.40%
Triple hits: 3 1.23%
Quad hits: 28 11.52%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
# of mob melee attacks: 43
# of player melee attacks: 40
# of times you parried a mob: 1 2.33%
# of times you parried a player 1 2.50%
# of times you evaded a mob: 14 32.56%
# of times you evaded a player 10 25.00%

note that swings = total swings not only mainhand.

im rr5, 15xx ws etc, used haste dps evade buff all the time.
got dr1 to affect my quad rate.

chat.log sent to novamir also ;D so that he can see if i just invented the numbers.

edit:
note that i only got dr1, mayb with dr3 or something quad rate is too high, but cant tell that, mayb some savage with dr 3-4 can provide some logs too.

thx

edit2: im also not saying that we dont need a toning down somehow maybe, but cut the pointless bs whine like "savages hit for 1,5k dmg every 1,5sec etc

oh and the mob attacks were guards in breifine and some gorbochends they attacked me more often than enemy players (im glad to be a tank hehe)

 

[belth]

From the above numbers, reduce quads, increase triples.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by belth
From the above numbers, reduce quads, increase triples.

reduce single hits and increase double as its supposed to be 50% 30% 15% 5%( http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=53885356&replies=96 . Which means 1.75 hits in one swing.
Now:
Single hits: 143 58.85%
Double hits: 69 28.40%
Triple hits: 3 1.23%
Quad hits: 28 11.52%

means average hit rate is 1.65 which is lower than what mythic intended . So decrease quads increase triples, reduce single increase doubles by a little.

Originally posted by NP_FinsterThink that was exactly what i was trying to express.[/b]

well its a fact that savages and dual wielders are hitting just as much per swing (a miss counts as a hit in this) and you were talking about damage NOT hit/swing rate.

 

[poppamies]

only 12pages so far, keep this thread going

 

[Jergiot]

Re: Re: Re: 2-Handed Savage Friar any 1 ?

Originally posted by ulke
Hmm, you are comparing a class that can give buffs, resists, rezz, and heal with a pure meleeclass...hmm..
You pay a price for that, savages dont pay that, becouse we dont get anything else than doing dmg

The dmg a 2h-savage does is on average higher than 300, I can admit that

are u serious? a pure meleeclass? warrior=pure melee
arms=pure melee zerker=pure melee etc...

savage=not puremelee, look at the spells and tauntshout u got?

could u tell me why savages should be on tank table and reavers not? or thanes, champs, friars, paladin? give me 1 good answer and ill be happy.

 

[noaim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 2-Handed Savage Friar any 1 ?

Originally posted by Jergiot
are u serious? a pure meleeclass? warrior=pure melee
arms=pure melee zerker=pure melee etc...

savage=not puremelee, look at the spells and tauntshout u got?

could u tell me why savages should be on tank table and reavers not? or thanes, champs, friars, paladin? give me 1 good answer and ill be happy.

Savages dont have af chant, heal chant, end regen chant, pulsating pbae, insta dot, chain/plate, ranged attacks, ress, heals, concbuffs. To mention a few reasons.

 

[Driwen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2-Handed Savage Friar any 1 ?

Originally posted by noaim
ranged attacks

before you(not noaim but albs/hibs) bring up the interupting part of the taunt shout that will be changed soon. Mythic had just overlooked that

 

[belth]

Originally posted by driwen
reduce single hits and increase double as its supposed to be 50% 30% 15% 5%( http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=53885356&replies=96 . Which means 1.75 hits in one swing.
Now:
Single hits: 143 58.85%
Double hits: 69 28.40%
Triple hits: 3 1.23%
Quad hits: 28 11.52%

means average hit rate is 1.65 which is lower than what mythic intended . So decrease quads increase triples, reduce single increase doubles by a little.



well its a fact that savages and dual wielders are hitting just as much per swing (a miss counts as a hit in this) and you were talking about damage NOT hit/swing rate.

While it might increase "hits on average", it would also reduce the massive disparity between triples and quads, resulting in propably somewhat less nerfcalls. Still, there's the matter of very high defense coupled with very high offense and Mythic will do something to that sooner or later. Sooner preferably so all the FoTM's can be told to "cry more noob" when they're not as über as they wanted to be.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by belth
While it might increase "hits on average", it would also reduce the massive disparity between triples and quads, resulting in propably somewhat less nerfcalls. Still, there's the matter of very high defense coupled with very high offense and Mythic will do something to that sooner or later. Sooner preferably so all the FoTM's can be told to "cry more noob" when they're not as über as they wanted to be.

actually most savages prefer more doubles and triples allthough it will make big hit rarer . Not sure about their reasons but on vnboards trev (ex tl savage) posted this and most were ok with it, even if it wouldnt actually improve someones swing rate.

But we will see what happens to the savages, if they are to strong then mythic should correct it fast. As midgard doesnt like to get a zerk nerf (it was with reason, but hell they put the prob in and it took them 11 patches to see the error?). So do it fast or people will get used to it and then to correct it will be harder.

But it cant be that hard to test wether or not a class does as much damage as some other class and it is certainly not hard to see how well someones effective defence is. So goo mythic again ..

 

[vintervargen]

this is really pointless.

savages are overpowered

anyone who met one in rvr slaying your support in 3 secs while he evade every slam/anni you do is teh :bore:

wont be nerfed until toa is released, savages are there to keep ppl playing mid after the zerker nerf.

$$$ > whines

 

[dakeyras]

Hmmm

I totally disbelieved some of the claims from Mid/Excal Savages about how hard they were hitting until today. Basically, my hits were nowwhere near theirs...not even slightly close. Fully buffed and with 100% qual weapons I was seeing avg hits of around 100 main, 50 off.

Sunday morning Mid/Pryd got all 3 strength relics and my damage went through the roof. Dunno how they assess the 20% but I was hitting around 210 main and 100 off. Same weapons, same buffs.

Just cannot see how that damage difference is 20%

Got loads of logs (before and after relics), just need a decent parser. Anyone got a URL to a good one?

 

[Arnor]

http://acm.cse.msu.edu/~penney/

 

[belth]

I'm guessing it applies the relic bonus to the base-damage you hit with each swing and possibly to the style bonus also, which would atleast result in such a massive increase in damage. Could be totally wrong on that. "Kinda" hard to test though

 

[stunned]

Ppl wont be happy untill all Mids rerolled Thanes and Skalds.

 

[parzi]

Originally posted by vintervargen
this is really pointless.

savages are overpowered

anyone who met one in rvr slaying your support in 3 secs while he evade every slam/anni you do is teh :bore:

wont be nerfed until toa is released, savages are there to keep ppl playing mid after the zerker nerf.

$$$ > whines

clueless whines like this < facts in form of logs from rvr...

anyone who met one in rvr slaying your support in 3 secs while he evade every slam/anni you do is teh :bore: -> 11% quadrate... 25% evaderate vs enemy players last night (yes evadebuff was up, its on all of my qb's, haste dps evade always running, yes i got sc everything capped etc so dont try to find something like that)...

i'll better post it again, i agree that savages are a bit too good but just fo with such stupid posts, i do expect things like this from some warderzergalbs, but not from experienced playes like you...

giv logs of 90% evade rate , as i only know such things from vnboards and lately also from bw which seems to turn into vnboardofstupidwhiners2... i post a log ? oh noone cares... ppl like to QQ more and just ignore the log

p.s. as said above i didnt post the whole log ofc it includes grp/gu chat etc, but i sent the original file to novamir so that he can check if i just invented the numbers

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by belth
I'm guessing it applies the relic bonus to the base-damage you hit with each swing and possibly to the style bonus also, which would atleast result in such a massive increase in damage. Could be totally wrong on that. "Kinda" hard to test though

thing is that if its on average 100 main 50 off and now 210 main and 100 off. It should be 50 stylebonus without relics and 110 with. So stylebonus jumped 120% and base damage 100%. Which is not even close how relics are supposed to work and I also doubt it, but it could be some kind off bug..

alderian you do know you are exagerating, even if dakeyras
numbers are correct. He would only do 275 every 1.5 sec on average (1.65 swing rate on average) and that is if savages actually hit every swing they do. So you have support with 550 hitpoints?

 

[belth]

Originally posted by parzi
but not from experienced playes like you...

Ah, eBay equals experience. Gotta remember that

 

[parzi]

hehe heck i dont know who has been ebayed and who not

oh and another parser which i used:

http://www.graycubicle.com/kort/parse.html

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by belth
Ah, eBay equals experience. Gotta remember that

he is experienced, played odjinn, cutie and some zerker on mid/exc earlier, knows his shit