[RANT] Fix the fucking WE's!

[Jupitus]

The problem is the damn server lag. I watched a WE attack a BW. The BW was on 50% health from the attack before the WE was able to be targeted. While you think you pop from stealth the instant you attack, you just dont.

I think I said earlier in response to Tiani that the performance factor might be what is wrong here, rather than any major imbalance, so I agree if lag has this much of a detrimental effect the lag needs fixing, but not the class

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I can't believe you posted this bit... so we're not supposed to post in this thread because we play the class being discussed? :lol:

My point was that he has a vested interest in the Witch Elf not being nerfed, reinforced by his clearly biased posts that were largely emotive.

Why is it so many people on this board try to use Straw Man? It's a really obvious trick.

 

[Jupitus]

My point was that he has a vested interest in the Witch Elf not being nerfed, reinforced by his clearly biased posts that were largely emotive.

Why is it so many people on this board try to use Straw Man? It's a really obvious trick.

'clearly biased and emotive' ????

Sorry, but I have to disagree! If you are going to have a disucssion about WEs then you have to take on board input from those playing them to better understand the dynamics of the class. Sure, you can read up on the class abilities but until you play the class in a mixture of environments you will never have the full picture.

Calean's posts I think have been similar to mine, where we have tried to offset with reasoned discussion the claims that the class is a one shot killer without impunity. This is most certainly NOT the case as we have tried to explain. I don't see that as being 'emotional' at all, simply factual.

EDIT: If you want 'emotive' then read some of the posts from those claiming 'WE damage is just sick' etc etc

 

[Vintersorg]

My point was that he has a vested interest in the Witch Elf not being nerfed, reinforced by his clearly biased posts that were largely emotive.

Why is it so many people on this board try to use Straw Man? It's a really obvious trick.

Witch Elves are not immortal you know...OK, so I'm as of this moment only playing in T3...but I have not encountered problems with killing WE's till now. Even those several levels higher than me.
Every class has it's role. The Role of WE's is to kill casters and targets stupid enough to keep their backs turned to the WE.
Yes, they can kill tanks now and then, but if the tanks turn their backs on a witch Elf, they're obviously going to get eaten (they have abilities that say "ignore armour when striking from the back).
I play a White Lion, I can easily kill casters, Witch elves and tanks that are stupid enough to keep their flanks/backs exposed to me and keep on pounding the BW/Healer while I rip through their defenses. Does that mean I need a nerf too now?

Face it, this remains a group game and in the grand scale of Battle, one witch elf won't make the difference.
Second, because you don't know how to kill Witch Elves, doesn't mean they're invulnerable. It means you need to take a good look at your tactics again.

 

[civy]

And another point. Why dont WE's get knocked out of stealth or entering stealth when they take dmg. IMO if I get a arrow onto a WE before they have got into stealth then they shouldnt.

Mythic should never have bottled it and included stealth

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Second, because you don't know how to kill Witch Elves, doesn't mean they're invulnerable. It means you need to take a good look at your tactics again.

So to clarify - you think I should be trying to kill Witch Elves as a healer? :lol:

Also, the topic we are discussing is not if Witch Elves can be killed (takes my single-target dps specced BW about 5-10 secs to burn one down) but if their damage is too high to give a target much, if any chance of survival.

Did a bit of play-testing today and the lag-destealth does give the impression of a WE vs X fight being 2-3 seconds shorter than it actually is, so adjust my numbers accordingly.

It's good that people highlighted that - as it does seem to be a major factor.

However I have a question for all the Witch Elf players and Witch Hunter players here (the one class archetype that can easily attack a target without getting rooted BEFORE they reach melee (not after they destealth - important difference)):

How is it either fair or balanced that you, the only 2 classes in the entire game that have a 95%+ chance of reaching your target via stealth were given not only very high spike dps, but an ability that prevents you from trying to escape said dps unless you are fortunate enough to have a knockback ready?

Seems extremely OTT to me. How much outcry was there over PWF which works on a similar principle? (you get heals the healer takes damage, stop healing = no damage). How much outcry right now would there be if a BW and Sorc (classes with a comparable spike dps output) was given the exact same ability as a ranged, casted spell?

 

[Vintersorg]

So to clarify - you think I should be trying to kill Witch Elves as a healer? :lol:

Also, the topic we are discussing is not if Witch Elves can be killed (takes my single-target dps specced BW about 5-10 secs to burn one down) but if their damage is too high to give a target much, if any chance of survival.

Not as a healer no...but I've seen people on this thread complain that they kill tanks...
Also, if you're a healer, you need someone to protect you. If none of the tanks are protecting you, that's not the WE's fault...

And about the chance of survival...I'm definitely a pretty average player...and my White Lion can survive a WE popping on him. In such case a good player should definitely be able to survive it...

just my two cents

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Also, if you're a healer, you need someone to protect you. If none of the tanks are protecting you, that's not the WE's fault...

That is true - but again we're back to a situation where I am completely dependant on a second class to survive the attack.

I know it isn't balanced for 1v1, and i'm not saying it should be - i'm saying i should have at least some chance to survive if i play better than my attacker - right now as both healer and dps caster i have almost no chance at all unless the WE plays like a pillock.

 

[Jupitus]

That is true - but again we're back to a situation where I am completely dependant on a second class to survive the attack.

But... the WE is also almost certainly dependant on a 2nd class to survive the attack too, unless we are in healing range which you can avoid by keeping back from our healers... and so it goes on.... it's like a game of chess, where pawns are exchanged 1 for 1

 

[Jupitus]

Oh, and one quick additional comment - '95% certain of reaching the target' is very much an overstatement, unless we take a very roundabout route to reach the back of the opposition undetected, which gives the opposition an advantage at having our numbersd effectively reduced for a significant period. If we fringe the fight stealthed then we need to hide somewhere out of view and wait 30s for stealth to be up again. If we don't stealth then we need to run well away from the action, and even then anyone with their wits about them might well spot us and be able to at least give a heads up to the team that there is a WE lurking about.

 

[ramathorn]

Every class has it's role. The Role of WE's is to kill casters and targets stupid enough to keep their backs turned to the WE.
Yes, they can kill tanks now and then, but if the tanks turn their backs on a witch Elf, they're obviously going to get eaten (they have abilities that say "ignore armour when striking from the back).

they also have abilities called "feinted positioning" and "elixer of insane power" (there may be others, I havent got high enough on my WE to see them as of yet) which completely remove the "striking from the back" part of "ignore armour". Trying to make this into "its shit players playing shit" really isnt the case. They need to be looked at (WH's also) in a big way, far too many goodies as core abilities.

I dont mean completely screwing their damage, I made some suggestions earlier in this thread which i think would go a long way, maybe make the kisses (and whatever they are called on the WH) some where in the middle of a spec line so they dont have access to them all and actually have to think twice about fighting everything under the sun

 

[Jupitus]

they also have abilities called "feinted positioning" and "elixer of insane power" (there may be others, I havent got high enough on my WE to see them as of yet) which completely remove the "striking from the back" part of "ignore armour". Trying to make this into "its shit players playing shit" really isnt the case. They need to be looked at (WH's also) in a big way, far too many goodies as core abilities.

I dont mean completely screwing their damage, I made some suggestions earlier in this thread which i think would go a long way, maybe make the kisses (and whatever they are called on the WH) some where in the middle of a spec line so they dont have access to them all and actually have to think twice about fighting everything under the sun

Well - in my experience (up to level 30 now) the abilities you mention all require some degree of blood lust buildup and are most definitely not 'always on' by any means. Yes, if we fight well and manage to suprise the target we can often use a mixture of abilities, but it isn't just a 'unstealth kill and leg it' macro

 

[Cylian]

They shouldn't be able to stealth while being attacked, and they shouldn't be as fast as they are while in stealth.

 

[ramathorn]

Well - in my experience (up to level 30 now) the abilities you mention all require some degree of blood lust buildup and are most definitely not 'always on' by any means. Yes, if we fight well and manage to suprise the target we can often use a mixture of abilities, but it isn't just a 'unstealth kill and leg it' macro

They both require precisely 0 bloodlust and are on a 60 second cool down (less with tactics) so up quite often.

I've had a minor change of heart, played t4 a bit just now, for the first time in a while. Forgot how fecked BW's are. Hope WE's get some love next patch.

 

[Legean]

Well - in my experience (up to level 30 now) the abilities you mention all require some degree of blood lust buildup and are most definitely not 'always on' by any means. Yes, if we fight well and manage to suprise the target we can often use a mixture of abilities, but it isn't just a 'unstealth kill and leg it' macro

None of the abilities he mentioned require bloodlust. Feinted positioning is a core ability on a 60 second timer (20 seconds with a tactic) which lets you use your rear ignore armour positional from any position. Elixir of insane power is a potion in the first tree that makes all your attacks ignore armour for 7 seconds every 60 seconds. WHs bullets go off only with executions whilst WEs kisses go off on any attack, including auto attack and thrown weapons. They have a 25% chance to proc or 50% chance with a tactic adding about 250 damage. You consider how many times a WE attacks a second thats a considerable boost to damage.

Ive played both WE and WH to the 20s (yes i realise its not max level) and WE is by far the easiest to play and able to take out multiple targets where the WH struggles with just one.

 

[ramathorn]

Ive played both WE and WH to the 20s (yes i realise its not max level) and WE is by far the easiest to play and able to take out multiple targets where the WH struggles with just one.

I agree with a lot of what u say / have said, but this is far from the truth. WH's far from struggle, a lot of the rediculous abilities present with WE's are present with them too, it just take more thought (and just a little more)

 

[Jupitus]

Nerf me for not getting my facts straight when at work then

I stand connected!

I still don't think it's as easy as some would try to lead us to believe though

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I dont mean completely screwing their damage, I made some suggestions earlier in this thread which i think would go a long way, maybe make the kisses (and whatever they are called on the WH) some where in the middle of a spec line so they dont have access to them all and actually have to think twice about fighting everything under the sun

Agreed.

 

[Thatelf]

You play destruction, you do not understand how frustrating it is to play order and be steamrolled 6k hp in 5 seconds by a WE.

It is impossible for a WE to do 6k damage in 5 seconds,there is a 1.5second GCD so your trying to tell people that a WE can dish out 5k damage in 2seconds...rotfl ok.You play Order you not understand what it's like to be steamrollered by 2-3 BW's. See how this is going?
It can take 60+ seconds to get into position to stealth and get to my target,i then have mear seconds,maybe 10 if i am lucky to make my kill after which i can 99.9% say i will die.How many will a BW kill in that time plus the time it takes me to run back to the fight?a lot more than the 1 i killed.WE doesn't have the luxury of 100 unit range.If Order used their IB/oathfriend to gaurd their squishies i would not go near them, but as IB's like to be upfront and so leave their squishies undeffended i will rip into them it's what i do....working as intended.WH has all the tools needed to nulify me the name is a hint WITCH Hunter.

 

[Thatelf]

So to clarify - you think I should be trying to kill Witch Elves as a healer? :lol:

Also, the topic we are discussing is not if Witch Elves can be killed (takes my single-target dps specced BW about 5-10 secs to burn one down) but if their damage is too high to give a target much, if any chance of survival.

Did a bit of play-testing today and the lag-destealth does give the impression of a WE vs X fight being 2-3 seconds shorter than it actually is, so adjust my numbers accordingly.

It's good that people highlighted that - as it does seem to be a major factor.

However I have a question for all the Witch Elf players and Witch Hunter players here (the one class archetype that can easily attack a target without getting rooted BEFORE they reach melee (not after they destealth - important difference)):

How is it either fair or balanced that you, the only 2 classes in the entire game that have a 95%+ chance of reaching your target via stealth were given not only very high spike dps, but an ability that prevents you from trying to escape said dps unless you are fortunate enough to have a knockback ready?

Seems extremely OTT to me. How much outcry was there over PWF which works on a similar principle? (you get heals the healer takes damage, stop healing = no damage). How much outcry right now would there be if a BW and Sorc (classes with a comparable spike dps output) was given the exact same ability as a ranged, casted spell?

How is it fair or balanced that a BW can debuff his own damage??

 

[Gear]

Group a kotbs, WEs fixed. Did you see the abilities?

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

How is it fair or balanced that a BW can debuff his own damage??

I can debuff some of my own damage. But, er, that hasn't really mattered so far. We'll see how that works out after today's patch.

 

[Grotnob]

Group a kotbs, WEs fixed. Did you see the abilities?

So logically, with KotBS being Order's equivalent of a Chosen, grouping with a Chosen should nullify Witch Hunters?

No?

What do you mean, No?

You mean there's another Order class that's better and more useful than it's supposed opposite number on Destruction? Surely not...

And yeah, I do play both sides.

 

[Gear]

So logically, with KotBS being Order's equivalent of a Chosen, grouping with a Chosen should nullify Witch Hunters?

No?

What do you mean, No?

You mean there's another Order class that's better and more useful than it's supposed opposite number on Destruction? Surely not...

And yeah, I do play both sides.

As WHs are not the same as WEs, and the same applies to most cases when people want a direct comparison, I really don't see what you want to say.

This is not WOW, it's something else, not all things are the same (which is far better, but hey that's just me).

 

[Perf]

Arguing with the BW on this board is a waste of time. Most of them are selfish power gamers who think that even MMOs should be single player games where dying (for them) is rare and they should be able to kill 30-50 people before they go down. They see someone pop out of stealth and kill them and that's all the care about. The fact that they were running out-of-group, on their own, killing tons of people before dying; doesn't seem to phase them at all. They also don't notice the WE now can't stealth for 30 seconds, and gets stunned, rooted, and killed by everyone else who saw them. They apparently shouldn't have to run, or pick their fights (like everyone else) because they're more important than other people. They also shouldn't need their team, no, they should be allowed to function solo perfectly fine.

They also don't spend most of their keep sieges doing useless things off to the side, or waiting around on the top floor of the inner keep (avoiding the AE) for the freak chance someone storms the stairs, so they can step downstairs and die to AE.

No.. they get everything handed to them to the point that if they die, they consider it such a grave insult, that that class must be OP, because killing them is wrong.

I'm kinda hoping that they all roll WE after this patch, so their massive whining can maybe solve some of the MDPS issues. I'll also have a lot of fun watching them die in droves.

 

[Grotnob]

As WHs are not the same as WEs, and the same applies to most cases when people want a direct comparison, I really don't see what you want to say.

This is not WOW, it's something else, not all things are the same (which is far better, but hey that's just me).

I'm with you that this isn't WoW, and classes not being identical to their opposite number is not necessarily a bad thing, however, the point I was trying to make was that it seems (to me, at least, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone) that Order classes are better/more useful than their opposite number across the board, not just in one or two cases. Classes are not identical, but they should at least be roughly equal in terms of what they can do, damage output, etc.

In the interests of fairness though, I've come across a number of people complaining that Destruction are overpowered, so I concede my entire argument may be based on no more than my own personal perception, and success or failure in Scenarios or ORvR may well be entirely dependant on skill, organisation, warband/party makeup and, perhaps most importantly, overwhelming numbers.

Ofc I've not seen the effects of the new patch yet. This may well all have changed, and to comment further on the way things used to be is largely pointless.

 

[Gear]

I'm with you that this isn't WoW, and classes not being identical to their opposite number is not necessarily a bad thing, however, the point I was trying to make was that it seems (to me, at least, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone) that Order classes are better/more useful than their opposite number across the board, not just in one or two cases. Classes are not identical, but they should at least be roughly equal in terms of what they can do, damage output, etc.

In the interests of fairness though, I've come across a number of people complaining that Destruction are overpowered, so I concede my entire argument may be based on no more than my own personal perception, and success or failure in Scenarios or ORvR may well be entirely dependant on skill, organisation, warband/party makeup and, perhaps most importantly, overwhelming numbers.

Ofc I've not seen the effects of the new patch yet. This may well all have changed, and to comment further on the way things used to be is largely pointless.

Well, I can comment on 2 "mirror" classes. WPs and DOKs. It comes down to doks doing better damage, and wps being better healers (always imo, I don't claim knowledge of the universe like most people do). Similar, but not identical.

The problem with WEs (to get things back on track) is that they can easily rape heavy tanks. As far as I'm concerned, they can and should bash BWs and healers without problems, however when it comes to facing something with armour... well, there's something wrong there and should be addressed.

And once again, make stealth openings positionals and reduce movement while stealthed (to be applied WEs and WHs ofc)

 

[Thatelf]

Well, I can comment on 2 "mirror" classes. WPs and DOKs. It comes down to doks doing better damage, and wps being better healers (always imo, I don't claim knowledge of the universe like most people do). Similar, but not identical.

The problem with WEs (to get things back on track) is that they can easily rape heavy tanks. As far as I'm concerned, they can and should bash BWs and healers without problems, however when it comes to facing something with armour... well, there's something wrong there and should be addressed.

And once again, make stealth openings positionals and reduce movement while stealthed (to be applied WEs and WHs ofc)

The problem is that people make wild statements like...a WE can rape heavy tanks...i play a lvl40 WE yes thats T4..i can not and do not rape heavy tanks,a well played IB will destroy me.If i beat an IB then i have been very lucky or he just plain sucks at his class it really is as simple as that.
Once again make BW have to stop to cast like everyother caster ingame.Stop crying and L2p.

 

[Vintersorg]

The problem with WEs (to get things back on track) is that they can easily rape heavy tanks. As far as I'm concerned, they can and should bash BWs and healers without problems, however when it comes to facing something with armour... well, there's something wrong there and should be addressed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
If a tanks get raped by a WE, that means he gave the WE to use her positionals. If a Tank is stupid enough to turn his back on a WE, he does deserve to be raped.

 

[Perf]

And once again, make stealth openings positionals and reduce movement while stealthed (to be applied WEs and WHs ofc)

not with the problems ppl have due to lag,gfx issues. by and large it wouldnt be too hard to land a positional opener on a standing target, but try it on a moving target and it would be dificult to say the least.

you can reduce the run spd whilst stealthed as long as you increase the amount of time you can stay stealthed and ofc do not lose your ap.

so effectively gear your saying we/wh should really be like the assassin classes of daoc. Bring it on i say