[RANT] Fix the fucking WE's!

[Roo Stercogburn]

Interesting.

I had thought WE's also had a short duration DoT similar to the Shammy Gork one and the Witch Hunter variant. Seems thats not the case? Regardless, I went and looked up their abilities and some can be used at slight range (20 feet) and there's a fair number of DoTs available depending on spec. So you can still take attacks from a WE even if they are just out of melee range, as well as a damage shield type effect if someone hits the WE.

Apologies if I got the 2-sec dot thing wrong.

Short version: To my untrained eye it looks like there are several ways to take damage from a WE that is outside of direct melee range, some depending on its spec.

 

[Cylian]

What I'd like to know is, if you see a WH/WE at clipping range, they stealth and you run in the opposite direction, how do they manage to catch up?

 

[Gear]

What I'd like to know is how is it possible to stealth when I'm hammering the bitches head. And yes, it happens and quite often.

 

[Aiteal]

What I'd like to know is how is it possible to stealth when I'm hammering the bitches head. And yes, it happens and quite often.

You need to disrupt the casting of the stealth spell
Like this Blorc did with me
http://www.my-ennui.com/incognito.wmv

 

[Urgat]

Ah yet more combinations of the logical fallacies. Still, at least it's not more Straw Man.

The WE's biggest damage spike usually comes in the opener and the rear-ignore-armor style that comes before the tank sees the WE (lag-destealth for anything up to 4 seconds even with a high-end machine, altho admittedly normally 2-3).

That's 2 hits (that ignore armor) and 3 seconds of a double ticking dot before i even know i'm under attack. The WE then pops a stun or similar combined with the ignore positional requirements ability and gets another 3 seconds of pounding on me.

Usually, vs a competent WE i don't get to hit them until my health is close to 50% (on my SM).

So, you were saying?

Hi, sorry, but this is incorrect.

The From stealth Openers of WE/WH do ZERO damage. Instead they apply a debuff that damages you when you do something in particular (Melee / Move / Magic)

The next style most WE use will be a Kiss, which does a small amount of damage, and buffs the WE.

The actual styles start after those two, so its usually about 3 seconds after popping that the WE will actually start to do damage.

Just claryfying.

 

[Gear]

Hi, sorry, but this is incorrect.

The From stealth Openers of WE/WH do ZERO damage. Instead they apply a debuff that damages you when you do something in particular (Melee / Move / Magic)

The next style most WE use will be a Kiss, which does a small amount of damage, and buffs the WE.

The actual styles start after those two, so its usually about 3 seconds after popping that the WE will actually start to do damage.

Just claryfying.

Nope. Openings have nothing to do with the GCD. It's one after another, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Well moan all you want there is NO WE nerf on the cards or any talk of them being nerfed so learn to live with them or L2p against them or quit the game.
Have fun i am.

Elixir of Insane Power: The Witch Elf’s attacks will now ignore 50% of her target’s Armor.

Nerfed from 100% reduction.

Healer's Bane: This ability’s effect has been reduced to 50%.

Think this was 75% before?

They've toned down some of the WE stuff, doesn't mean they're finished of course. They've also boosted a lot of other classes, which means the WE is being caught up.

Looks like the WH got a few boosts in the 1.0.6 patch notes - I'll leave it to someone who's played one for more than 10m in beta to say whether there's much of a gain.

 

[Boggy]

Looks like the WH got a few boosts in the 1.0.6 patch notes - I'll leave it to someone who's played one for more than 10m in beta to say whether there's much of a gain.

Since the patch my WH is noticeably worse to play. My stealth is dropping at times it didn't used to, one of the core abilities I used a lot (blessed bullets of cleansing) has been moved to a higher level so I no longer have access to it and I think (not sure) that the main CC I was relying upon (Pistol Whip) has been moved from a 10s cooldown 20s. It also seems to land a lot less frequently.

Add to this that other classes seem to be doing a lot more damage, which reduces my already poor survivability, and patch 1.0.6 basically transformed WH (for me) from a thoroughly enjoyable, if mediocre class to a frustrating one.

Against WEs I still feel weaker, though I would not put that forward as reason to nerf them, as you need to consider the wider context.

 

[Urgat]

Nope. Openings have nothing to do with the GCD. It's one after another, sorry to burst your bubble.

Pardon, What bubble?

The opener doesnt have GCD, correct.

But the follow up kiss does, which does little damage,

0 - Opener + Kiss (little damage)
1.5 - Use elixir (no damage)
3 - start styling, (damage starts.)

/shrug

 

[Boggy]

Sorry Urgat, you do appear to be contriving an argument there. The only constraint on WEs is the styles they can use from stealth. All follow ups are at the discretion of the players and if someone chose to immediately apply damage they could.

I'm not saying that supports the idea that half your health bar would be gone before you can respond, but neither does your argument support the opposing view.

As a WH I choose to apply a debuff, then (depending on opponent) apply my rear positional stun. For Sorcs and Magi, I would guess I might be able to take half their HPs before they get an opportunity to move/respond if I get a crit in. Whether WEs have an equivalent chain, I don't know.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Hi, sorry, but this is incorrect.

The From stealth Openers of WE/WH do ZERO damage. Instead they apply a debuff that damages you when you do something in particular (Melee / Move / Magic)

The next style most WE use will be a Kiss, which does a small amount of damage, and buffs the WE.

The actual styles start after those two, so its usually about 3 seconds after popping that the WE will actually start to do damage.

Just claryfying.

So when it's often 3+ seconds to see that we have a debuff on us and you have destealthed, how do we know not to melee/magic/move when we haven't seen you yet (and reaction times for even the fastest person applies another 1-2 seconds worth of double-ticking dot).

Also as he says - wrong - the debuff does not trigger GCD (just tried it on my WH).

 

[Mr_Grumpy]

Hi, sorry, but this is incorrect.

The From stealth Openers of WE/WH do ZERO damage. Instead they apply a debuff that damages you when you do something in particular (Melee / Move / Magic)

The next style most WE use will be a Kiss, which does a small amount of damage, and buffs the WE.

The actual styles start after those two, so its usually about 3 seconds after popping that the WE will actually start to do damage.

Just claryfying.

just simply BS btw. By time most WE are SHOWING out of stealth they have done lots and lots of dmg and not just enfeebling crap.

 

[Urgat]

hmm? read again, i said the opener debuff does NOT trigger GCD and the Kiss self buff, and the elixir self buff both do.

Yes, should the WE choose not to Buff / Debuff, then it can start styling straight from stealth.. (Opener = no GCD, followed by immediate melee style)

So, yes, you COULD start taking damage straight away, but tbh, i would be surprised if any WE did NOT use at least the "kiss" self buff, as this alone generates a vast amount of the DPS (50% proc rate with the correct tactic) Meaning it will generaly be at least 1.5 secs before you start taking damage i would think.

Now... the "not seeing the WE untill 50% health gone" is not an issue i can comment on, i can only personaly say i have never had an issue with that happening when WH pop on my shaman, i general have plenty of time to react. Since they use the same stealth mechanics, i am not sure what the issue is there... it may just be performance.


What i dont understand here is why WE are so different from WH's

They have the same abilities, yet i am simply not bothered by them like you guys say your bothered by WE's (on any of my toons)

 

[Gear]

That's why WEs need toning down

 

[Bahumat]

I played a Witch Hunter at 40 and was Confession spec. I found I beat WE's far more than they beat me. Morale 1 heal, tactic to give 50% heals from finishers combined with Dragon Gun meant I could beat them even if they got them jump.

 

[Jenk]

I think it's just down to lag that WE's appear broken.. by the time the toon has loaded and the WE's target is receiving messages of damage, you've already had your 3 or whatever seconds it is to start hitting. There's been a number of times where I (an RP) have died either just as or even before the WE that has attacked me has shown on my screen, along with a million dmg numbers flying up my screen after death.

In other words, fix the fucking RvR lag.

 

[Thatelf]

You can't blame or nerf a WE because the servers lag so badly.Lastnight in Reikland,many times i thought i was attacking a lone player only to find that after hitting him a whole zerg suddenly appeared around me,very bad server lag unfortunatly it does even affect a WE.

 

[Jenk]

Did you not read this bit?

In other words, fix the fucking RvR lag.

 

[Thatelf]

Sorry dude i wasn't reffering to you, yes i saw what you wrote it's what prompted me to reply.I was just being lazy and didn't quote anyone

 

[Legean]

You know its bad when the server has to catch up to you being hit. Many times i've looked back at logs after being hit by a WE and got "Someones XX hits you for XX".

I think the movement dot simply needs to be removed and replaced with something else. I don't think people should be punished for having a lower end machine or for something out of their control such as lag.

 

[Tiani]

You know its bad when the server has to catch up to you being hit. Many times i've looked back at logs after being hit by a WE and got "Someones XX hits you for XX".

I think the movement dot simply needs to be removed and replaced with something else. I don't think people should be punished for having a lower end machine or for something out of their control such as lag.

Yes for the love of god.

Remove Enfeebling Strike, sudden accusation and all pull-in skills from the game and it would be ahell of a lot more fun. These IWin buttons just plain suck arse.

 

[Perf]

Yes for the love of god.

Remove Enfeebling Strike, sudden accusation and all pull-in skills from the game and it would be ahell of a lot more fun. These IWin buttons just plain suck arse.

lol, iwin buttons....

 

[ramathorn]

Yes for the love of god.

Remove Enfeebling Strike, sudden accusation and all pull-in skills from the game and it would be ahell of a lot more fun. These IWin buttons just plain suck arse.

couldnt agree more, really annoying to get away from a train only to get pulled right back in to it again.

 

[Thatelf]

Yes for the love of god.

Remove Enfeebling Strike, sudden accusation and all pull-in skills from the game and it would be ahell of a lot more fun. These IWin buttons just plain suck arse.

ok then i lose my ES and what dot are you willing to give up?
Do you mean it would be a hell of a lot easyer for you to run around spaming your instants damage free?

 

[Tiani]

ok then i lose my ES and what dot are you willing to give up?
Do you mean it would be a hell of a lot easyer for you to run around spaming your instants damage free?

Tell me which one of my dots guarantees me a kill and you can have that one, oh right there arent any

also Im incini spec, so my instant damage is pitiful

 

[Thatelf]

Tell me which one of my dots guarantees me a kill and you can have that one, oh right there arent any

also Im incini spec, so my instant damage is pitiful

I can say the same thing..tell me which one of my dot's guarantees me a kill?

 

[Aqe]

DETAUNT! and if you have aoe detaunt DOUBLE DETAUNT!
If i get 1 melee on me i just laugh, doesn't matter what class they all do crap damage when double detaunted, strength debuffed etc

 

[Pandemic]

DETAUNT! and if you have aoe detaunt DOUBLE DETAUNT!
If i get 1 melee on me i just laugh, doesn't matter what class they all do crap damage when double detaunted, strength debuffed etc

bit hard to do when your disabled / silenced

 

[Boggy]

What i dont understand here is why WE are so different from WH's

They have the same abilities, yet i am simply not bothered by them like you guys say your bothered by WE's (on any of my toons)

This is the really interesting question for me. I would think either:

1) WEs are not better than WHs but a few early complaints fixated people on WE damage and since then every ganking, which WHs might be able to do also, hits a nerve. This seems an unlikely option to me, but possible.

2) Some aspect other than delve damage or other easily understood mechanics is causing a difference and we need some more sophisticated thinking to work it out. I prefer this option.

It did occur to me a while back to wonder how much impact animations have on class effectiveness. I notice my WH seems to have some fairly elaborate changes from rapier to pistol and back, and I wonder if the WEs are "better" in this respect. Sometimes I find abilities not firing very quickly or even getting halfway through an animation before something changes (like cone or LoS).

The other thing to look at might be utility and how it affects mobility and damage of the WE and the target. Not sure what the WEs have that WHs don't in utility.

 

[Urgat]

Another thing to note / take on board...

Just had several fights with various players in Tier 3 on my WE.

I absolutley CANNOT kill an equal level, decently played Tank, and i am Specced to ignore armour. And am a better than avarage player i think

Once i get to tier 4, ill try some more, but i doubt i will fair better.

Does anyone have pics or vids of WE's "Cutting through tanks like they werent there" as people seem to be claiming?

I would just be interested in how it was done... If it is happening so often like peple suggest.

If it isnt happening so often, i would suggest that WE are doing what there supposed to be doing... tearing up support, and ocasionaly getting lucky vs a tank.