[RANT] Fix the fucking WE's!

[ramathorn]

The problem for me is 2v1. It's relatively easy to find a buddy and go into scens together. When WEs do this, they CAN pop on a target with 5 people around it and still have a chance (if the 5 are not coordinating their assists), because together they can take people down so fast that each enemy gets very little damage in before they die.

and you think WH's cant do this? The gulf between the two classes is not THAT huge. WH's still make mince meat out of anything below heavy armour and still give tanks a resonable run for their money. I do agree that WE's need toning down some on armour.

The openers should be made positional, remove feinted positioning completely, they should also not have chain snare, silence, CC immunity, knockdown and healing debuff. Too many "I wins" - goes for both classes. These coupled with sudden accusation / enfeebling strike make it impossible for any caster to survive (nevermind win) even against a shit WE / WH.

Played my WE up to tier 3 now, the ability to kill things is rediculous, but I see similar things coming from WH's and have had the same thing happen to me on my Zealot

 

[Tallen]

and you think WH's cant do this? The gulf between the two classes is not THAT huge. WH's still make mince meat out of anything below heavy armour and still give tanks a resonable run for their money. I do agree that WE's need toning down some on armour.

The openers should be made positional, remove feinted positioning completely, they should also not have chain snare, silence, CC immunity, knockdown and healing debuff. Too many "I wins" - goes for both classes. These coupled with sudden accusation / enfeebling strike make it impossible for any caster to survive (nevermind win) even against a shit WE / WH.

Played my WE up to tier 3 now, the ability to kill things is rediculous, but I see similar things coming from WH's and have had the same thing happen to me on my Zealot

This is quite true, the WE has slightly higher survivability (for some inexplicable reason) and pumps out DPS a bit faster. It is noticable, but the WE is not that much better than the WH.

Simple fact is the WE is slightly easier to play, i play both and the WH takes a bit more thought, the WE is just slash, slash, slash...oh, it's dead, whereas with the WH you go in and out of melee range for best effects.

 

[Urgat]

Why do people continue to argue the point that the game isn't balanced for 1v1 when trying to justify the WEs DPS? Theres going to be 1v1 fights in the game wether people want it or not, and making a class that can take out almost any other class with little trouble is stupid.

Number of times I've been trying to make my way to a WB and can't make it because theres a WE blocking every route. The 1v1 capabilities are affecting the mass RvR.

Also people argue that WEs die so fast when they go and pick out a target. Well obviously if you jump in and attack someone with another 5 people around them you are going to die, every other class in the game would die too but theyre not getting insane DPS to ensure they get the kill. WEs are just as able to stay near the tank train, stay in heal range or pick off stragglers as any other class. Those who choose not to should be punished by dying without a kill again just like every other class in the game.

I am not putting that point forward to justify WE/WH damage output.

I am putting that point out to point out to ALL the class whines.

"Nerf BW's"
"Nerf WE"
"Nerf Sorcs"

etc etc.

I go out solo on my blorc sometimes, if i meet a soloplayer on any kind of toon with healing ability... i simply cannot beat them. Game over, end of story.

Do i whine that healing needs toning down? NO i simply accept the fact that my main class CANNOT take down a healer solo, and will eventualy loose to one if i try. (Yes it would take them 30 mins to kill me... but it would happen!)

Its NOT about 1v1, solo, or even Group vs group. THis is a RVR game, IT has been the intent of the developers to work every single aspect of this game around... and i quote again.. "Large scale RVR"

People need to just acceopt a few things, and get on with enjoying the game in the way its meant to be played...

If your a caster, and you meet a WH/WE solo... your going to die.

If your a tank, and you meet a primary healer solo, you smply will NOT be able to kill them

If your a melee class, and you find a ranged DPS class solo, the chances are you will NEVER get near enough to them to do damage.


Suck it up, release, and join the zerg. I seriously hope the devs stick to there guns and dont bow down to the "I dont have a chance on my own vs class x" whiners

 

[ramathorn]

If your a caster / tank / healer / dps / ranged dps, and you meet a WH/WE solo... your going to die.

fixed it for you, and thats the problem.

they have given a melee dps class stealth and extremely powerful openers from stealth. i don't know how you cant see the issue with this.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

fixed it for you, and thats the problem.

they have given a melee dps class stealth and extremely powerful openers from stealth. i don't know how you cant see the issue with this.

Agreed. Every class should have a scissors to it's paper so to speak. The WE doesn't - it takes two classes to survive one, let alone beat it!

Lets take something that happened this evening to me on my AM as an example:

A L40 WE pops on the L39 BW i had just finished getting to full health with a big casted heal. The BW had no other debuffs running on him (i always glance in case of a heal debuff).

I drop my insta-absorption shield into the BW, dump both my casted and insta-hots into the BW then hit my focus heal. So he now has 2 hots ticking on him for around around 400 and 200 a tick, plus the 600 hps from the start of the casted heal, plus the 500 ish per tick of the focus heal.

I then dump the morale heal into the BW at the end of this and begin casting my big 3 sec heal. In case you're wondering those HoT's were healing (taking avg values for them) 400+200+500 per second. His Hps still dropped like a stone (i saw no healing debuff icon btw) and only my morale heal really kept him up as the dps trailed off (the WE got pounded down by a bunch of tanks that were respawners thankfully).

The BW survives this on about 5-6% hps (i have mods loaded that give me % instead of Hps - i prefer it). All this happens in under 10 seconds - i'd say about 5-6 seconds in fact - lets go with 5.

My AM has excellent single burst dps healing with the combination of HoTs and focus heal+shield. Lets look at the maths of this a little more a sec:

• Avg BW hps - 4.5k at that level.
• 5-6% of that is about 250hps.
• 4500-250 = 4250
• Avg Healing per second received by BW = 1000
• Number of seconds BW received Avg healing = 5-10 (unsure).
• "Burst" healing received by BW (morale+shield) = 3400 hps

So:

Healing 1000*5 = 5000
Burst Healing =3400
Start vs Finish Hps = 4250
Total Damage needed by WE to leave the BW on 5-6% hps = 12650.

Assuming a 5 second attack = 12650/5 = 2530dps

Assuming a 10 second attack = 12650/10 = 1265dps

So that WE was doing between 1265 and 2530 damage to the target per second to have cut it down to 5-6% at the end of the fight. It is also worth noting the BW just ran away - so (probably) took no explosion damage.

That is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination, whether the game is balanced for mass-rvr or 1v1, or whether the BW should have stayed still or not...

To have a good healer dumping everything they have into someone under attack by a single WE and for them to only just survive is very, very overpowered. In fact, it's very very silly that if i hadn't had my morale heal up that target would definitely be dead. It's gotten to the point with WE's where if i see a caster on anything under about 50% under attack by them i don't bother to start healing - I spend my time healing targets that have a chance of surviving and then rez the dead caster afterwards.

Edit: Before any maths geniuses point out the numbers are rough - that's right they are. Now find another thread to be a pedant in

 

[Hawkwind]

Regarding some of the OP Issues we need to give Mythic some time. took years for DAOC to get some semblence of balance. Not sure they ever did get it perfect, good but always something there for people to moan at.

Playing Order now on K8P and thoroughly enjoying it. Leaving Destro Orrud on back burner until they sort out transfers. On K8P the fights seem pretty even. At T2 levels my WP can rip WE's apart quite easily. Only one I've lost to one on one was 5 levels above me. levelling pretty quick due to Scenes popping within 2 mins. Should hit T3 in a day or two.

If you argue that WE's shouldn't be able to take heavy tanks down as easily as they do then fine, I would agree. Anything else is just bolx, sums up the math in the post above anyways.

 

[Goku]

That is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination, whether the game is balanced for mass-rvr or 1v1, or whether the BW should have stayed still or not...

It makes a HUGE difference if he runs, infact over half of the damage came from it.

everybody wants balance, but don't use bad players playing bad has an example to get it.

 

[Gear]

At T2 levels my WP can rip WE's apart quite easily. Only one I've lost to one on one was 5 levels above me. levelling pretty quick due to Scenes popping within 2 mins. Should hit T3 in a day or two.

A WP is at it's best at those levels. At T4... that's another thing.

 

[Urgat]

fixed it for you, and thats the problem.

they have given a melee dps class stealth and extremely powerful openers from stealth. i don't know how you cant see the issue with this.

I dont have an issue with this because i accept that some classes have no chance of winning in a solo fight vs other classes. For the last time, this is not a solo game.

I also have a shaman... and i suffer the same issues with WH as you guys do with WE... <shrug> i accept if i am alone, and a WH finds me... i am toast.

I dont see how you can have an issue with this when you take the context of the situation in to account.


(Fort the record, my WE is not my main. Its low level and only played now and again. I am not defending WE or WH, or any class for that matter, i am simply trying to get across that poeple need to move awa from trying to reconcile class balance and abilities based on some incorrect asuption that every class should have a chance vs every other class. It is NOT meant to be that way in this game.

 

[Urgat]

thanks.

<Snip>

OK... Thanks for the example...

2 things to note.

First, tHe VAST majority of that Damage spike came from the BW running away. Plain and simple. That tool is a WH/WE's way of making sure the target stays still. You can blame the BW for the amount of damage he took.

second, and far more importantly. The bright wizard survived. Because he wasnt alone. This has been my point the entire thread. This is NOT a solo game. Had he been alone, he would have died. He had some support... so he didnt.

one more time...

THIS
IS
NOT
A
SOLO
GAME

so dont expect it to be balance for it.

 

[Legean]

OK... Thanks for the example...

2 things to note.

First, tHe VAST majority of that Damage spike came from the BW running away. Plain and simple. That tool is a WH/WE's way of making sure the target stays still. You can blame the BW for the amount of damage he took.

second, and far more importantly. The bright wizard survived. Because he wasnt alone. This has been my point the entire thread. This is NOT a solo game. Had he been alone, he would have died. He had some support... so he didnt.

one more time...

THIS
IS
NOT
A
SOLO
GAME

so dont expect it to be balance for it.

The point you cannot see, or wish to ignore, is most of the time even with a healer a WE will kill their targets unless its a heavy tank. Again you hammer the point of this not being a solo game without realising that some balance, although not exact, is needed at the lowest levels for the game to work.

For an extreme example lets say there is one class that can 1 shot any other class in the game reguardless. You think that because this isn't a solo game and he can simply be killed by the other players around that this is balanced? All that will happen is everyone will roll that class and the game will be greatly unbalanced in the "large scale RvR" you love to quote oh so often.

Smaller scale balance effects the higher level balance. WEs hit so fast that when im playing my healer my one second cast heal/DoT gets set back about 3/4 times before it actually casts making it a 3 second cast spell, one that isn't even going to save me. On my WL a WE doesn't even have to stealth to kill me, using various abilities they can reduce your armour to effectivly nothing. My only hope is that they are stupid and dont use any disables.

Now since we're talking "large scale RvR" we're not talking about one or two WEs but dosens. Even uncoordinated that could mean half of orders healers go down within a short space of time, this isn't effecting "large scale RvR"?

Need to look at the bigger picture not just throw up the same worn down comment "this is not a solo game".

 

[Gear]

Yeah, let's point out the fact that WEs don't have to be stealthed to get the uber dps they do. Even out of it, they still go mad.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

The point you cannot see, or wish to ignore, is most of the time even with a healer a WE will kill their targets unless its a heavy tank. Again you hammer the point of this not being a solo game without realising that some balance, although not exact, is needed at the lowest levels for the game to work.

Agreed.

Urgat go back and take the time to both read and understand my post. If the morale heal hadn't been up that caster would have been dead. Even if he hadn't moved (the movement dot averages 150 a tick - so take away 1500 damage total if you want to negate that). So feeding that back into my maths - the formula minus the morale heal and minus the movement dot still comes up in the WE's favour - the target dies.

So now if we do the maths that way (taking away my morale, and the dot damage from the WE) we now need TWO healers both spike healing the same target to keep it alive vs a WE. Still think it's balanced overall? What if we now say theres 2 WE's in a scenario. That means you need 4 order healers for their targets to have any chance of survival (at least 2). Lets say theres 4. Lets say theres 6, 8 etc. You getting the idea yet? Having to have 1 good healer to survive a WE is just about acceptable, having to have two is f'ing ridiculous.

 

[GekuL]

WE damage is fine, they wear the same armour as casters but have to be in melee range to do anything. People have to die sometimes and if you play a Melee DPS you'll know how many hurdles have to be cleared to actually do this.

WH need to be buffed to their level though. I'm interested to see how the improvements in the next patch work out, but kiss/bullets are not the only disparity. Witch Elves get a lot more tools to increase their damage against a target.
I have read that Witch Elves were buffed in the final beta stages, where as Witch Hunters were nerfed so hopefully we'll see some balancing done (but no nerfs).

 

[Goku]

Agreed.

Urgat go back and take the time to both read and understand my post. If the morale heal hadn't been up that caster would have been dead. Even if he hadn't moved (the movement dot averages 150 a tick - so take away 1500 damage total if you want to negate that). So feeding that back into my maths - the formula minus the morale heal and minus the movement dot still comes up in the WE's favour - the target dies.

So now if we do the maths that way (taking away my morale, and the dot damage from the WE) we now need TWO healers both spike healing the same target to keep it alive vs a WE. Still think it's balanced overall? What if we now say theres 2 WE's in a scenario. That means you need 4 order healers for their targets to have any chance of survival (at least 2). Lets say theres 4. Lets say theres 6, 8 etc. You getting the idea yet? Having to have 1 good healer to survive a WE is just about acceptable, having to have two is f'ing ridiculous.

If he was running the whole time, it would of been more than 1500, it does not tick once per sec, it ticks every single step. ive seen rune priests practicaly kill them selfs in 10-12 secs just from running away.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

You play destruction, you do not understand how frustrating it is to play order and be steamrolled 6k hp in 5 seconds by a WE.

you did NOT just say that!

We face witch hunters and bright wizards so dont say we dont know what it means.
The bright wizard "ignoring resists on crit" or possibly getting DPS'ed from range beeing chased by a witch hunter when TRYING to run away from them.

So dont even try to go there. Atleast our classes arnt broken. And those who so far have been, have gotten fixed, rift beeing one i believe.

 

[Urgat]

I arnt ignoring the pint at all, honestly.

A WH/WE (and yes, i keep refering to both... they are the SAME class for intents and purposes) that pops on a healed character in the middle of the zerg and kills it, is 99% of the time, dead straight after. Its 1 for 1 almost every time.

And in the grand scheme of that zerg fight, that 1 for 1 has made little difference. (if anything the suicide killers team is worse of cos the dead WH/WE is nw out of res range.

In large scale... Yes, WH/WE can shred the target they go for, then they die, and its over.

And sorry, but i am ignoring that silly "mathmatical" example. <chuckle>

 

[Legean]

In large scale... Yes, WH/WE can shred the target they go for, then they die, and its over.

Like I've said before, so does any class that runs into a zerg. Why are WEs and WHs different? Maybe if they were incapable of recieving heals you would have a point, but they are not. Its funny how you continue to say how "THIS IS NOT A SOLO GAME" and yet you refer back to how the WEs and WHs SOLO to get their kill and die straight after. Make up your mind about your own arguement.

Why are WEs and WHs special cases? They are just as capable staying in heal range and using their stealth to get to their target!

 

[Jupitus]

Why are WEs and WHs special cases? They are just as capable staying in heal range and using their stealth to get to their target!

Bollocks. The sensible target will be the casters at the back, and that puts you out of range 9 times out of 10.

 

[Aiteal]

Bollocks. The sensible target will be the casters at the back, and that puts you out of range 9 times out of 10.

Then it's not the sensible target

WE/WH's have a huge advantage over DaoC's stealthers
Being seen by all realm-mates from day 1 whilst stealthed, therefore allowing realm-mates to see what they are up to, and having group-desirability

The biggest problem WE/WH's have is stealthing to the back to get that kill without healing support and all alone then wondering why they die, and assuming that just because they run to the back without healers targetting them and by themselves they should be able to take out whoever they pop on.

Too many want the class to fit their playstyle and not the other way around.

 

[Legean]

Bollocks. The sensible target will be the casters at the back, and that puts you out of range 9 times out of 10.

The same for any MDPS, infact any DPS class the sensible target is the casters or healers. WEs and WHs get the ability to get to them without being seen (mostly). Also WEs and WHs have a lot of ignore armour abilities making them just as capable being near the other tanks trying to to be targeted but still being in heal range. They are also not bad in an assist train with ranged snare and their other abilities.

People talk about killing but being killed like it is the only viable way of playing the class, which is what is complete bollocks.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

And sorry, but i am ignoring that silly "mathmatical" example. <chuckle>

The damage is never over 200 per tic for that WE ability (dot while moving). I used a 10 second example to remain within the upper limit.

And it's very convenient that you ignore a well thought example that kicks your argument in the proverbial bollocks isnt it?

Fact: WE's have better damage than their "mirror".

Fact: Casters do not survive WE attacks without good healing.

Fact: It is still fairly easy for a WE to kill a caster that is receiving heals.

Fact: Your argument changes constantly and in fact you contradict yourself at least twice as Aerai points out.

Urgat - sorry but i'm done replying to you now - you either incapable of understanding or are trolling/baiting and quite frankly i'm indifferent to which by this point.

 

[Calaen]

The damage is never over 200 per tic for that WE ability (dot while moving). I used a 10 second example to remain within the upper limit.

And it's very convenient that you ignore a well thought example that kicks your argument in the proverbial bollocks isnt it?

Fact: WE's have better damage than their "mirror".

Fact: Casters do not survive WE attacks without good healing.

Fact: It is still fairly easy for a WE to kill a caster that is receiving heals.

Fact: Your argument changes constantly and in fact you contradict yourself at least twice as Aerai points out.

Urgat - sorry but i'm done replying to you now - you either incapable of understanding or are trolling/baiting and quite frankly i'm indifferent to which by this point.

Its not difficult for a person to be healed when a WE jumps. It just involves you being in a group where the healer is actually someone that is awake.

If you are not specced in a heal debuff jumping people and expecting to kill them when a healer is close is as dumb as it gets. Any class with roots and knockbacks immediately stops a WE from being in melee range.

Someone on your server is clearing cheating because the WE's you seem to come up against have every ability and full mastery spec lines.

As for the CC immunity dont make me laugh its been broke since release, You use it and .5 seconds later your rooted or snared again. I am not supried We's lower than you are beating you, the second you see them you are spamming help me macro's instead of fighting back

I demand all WE's on your server put you on their kill on sight list. I will accept this as a christmas present!!!!

 

[civy]

Its not difficult for a person to be healed when a WE jumps. It just involves you being in a group where the healer is actually someone that is awake.

If you are not specced in a heal debuff jumping people and expecting to kill them when a healer is close is as dumb as it gets. Any class with roots and knockbacks immediately stops a WE from being in melee range.

Someone on your server is clearing cheating because the WE's you seem to come up against have every ability and full mastery spec lines.

As for the CC immunity dont make me laugh its been broke since release, You use it and .5 seconds later your rooted or snared again. I am not supried We's lower than you are beating you, the second you see them you are spamming help me macro's instead of fighting back

I demand all WE's on your server put you on their kill on sight list. I will accept this as a christmas present!!!!

The problem is the damn server lag. I watched a WE attack a BW. The BW was on 50% health from the attack before the WE was able to be targeted. While you think you pop from stealth the instant you attack, you just dont.

 

[mrbandersnatch]

I've actually come across Exim (the WE in the OPs post). I was also somwhat suprised to be so completely trounced by another player, and consistently so at that. But then I was suprised to have to run away from a level 28 WE in oRvR when I was travelling to a BO. I was surprised to be killed by a level 31 WE in a scenario. In general I've been surprised that there is one MDPS class who lives up to the name...because Im damn sure my WL doesnt in comparison.

 

[Goku]

The damage is never over 200 per tic for that WE ability (dot while moving). I used a 10 second example to remain within the upper limit.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?
Enfeebling strike ticks more than once per sec if you run, I don’t know the exact numbers though.

And it's very convenient that you ignore a well thought example that kicks your argument in the proverbial bollocks isnt it?

Is it also convenient that your well thought out example wasn’t well thought out?
You based your whole equation on enfeebling strike doing 1500-2000 damage, that is totally wrong.

Fact:

Fact:

Fact:

Fact:

People should really know the facts before calling for nerfs.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Its not difficult for a person to be healed when a WE jumps. It just involves you being in a group where the healer is actually someone that is awake.

I guess that usually getting 200k+ heals in a lot of scenarios isn't awake I bow to your greater healing experience in WAR with your Witch Elf!

If you are not specced in a heal debuff jumping people and expecting to kill them when a healer is close is as dumb as it gets. Any class with roots and knockbacks immediately stops a WE from being in melee range.

You mean the AM knockback that bugs and does nothing well over 2/3 of the time? Not to mention the pretty much 100% bug rate if they are closer than about 10 feet (strange that, a melee class being closer than 10 feet often).

I demand all WE's on your server put you on their kill on sight list. I will accept this as a christmas present!!!!

Like i'm not already on said list

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?
Enfeebling strike ticks more than once per sec if you run, I don’t know the exact numbers though.

That i didnt know, and the whole equation wasn't based on it doing that damage. Also (unlike some in this thread) i'm happy to be corrected where that correction is relevant and true. It does however invalidate my last example, but not the first one.

Karak Hirn
Calana - Witch Elf

Strange how you jump to the defence of Witch Elves with eh? I guess you must be a neutral party with no vested interest in this whatsoever?

Finally, when WE's jump my AM i immediately use the purge debuff before even thinking about moving, same on my BW. They still kill me over half the time even with a decent healer nearby.

 

[civy]

I demand a ability for my SW that will double tick when you move. Stop you running out of range of my attacks. Seems only right. It's a stupid ability and a death sentence for anyone who cant remove it. My SW has no knockback except a morale one and standing toe to toe with a WE is a joke.

 

[Jupitus]

Then it's not the sensible target

WE/WH's have a huge advantage over DaoC's stealthers
Being seen by all realm-mates from day 1 whilst stealthed, therefore allowing realm-mates to see what they are up to, and having group-desirability

The biggest problem WE/WH's have is stealthing to the back to get that kill without healing support and all alone then wondering why they die, and assuming that just because they run to the back without healers targetting them and by themselves they should be able to take out whoever they pop on.

Too many want the class to fit their playstyle and not the other way around.

Well no, not really.

We all have a choice. For the team, the best target is often going to be the guy at the very back healing those in front of them. As a WE you have more chance of taking them out of action because people typically will focus ahead of them and as people have rightly stated, we do fast damage and for a clothy to stand up to it the healing will need to be good. That is the logic defining the rearmost as the target of choice - take out the healer supporting those in front. This choice will usually put you out of range of your own healers and you will very likely die, in my experience.

Second choice - stealth in, just within healing range, for the casters doing the damage in front of the healers - good because you can maybe get heals, but then so are the targets, and if it goes wrong you die fairly nastily, and the kill itself is less likely if their healers are on their toes.

Third choice - stealth and attack front players - if you have a good healer backing you up and able to heal through the melee damage you take then this is great for getting kills in RvR. I don't find it easy to take a tank down, to be honest, it is difficult still, but if I team with another tank or WE assisting on one then yes, they will go down. Drains the healer on my side, and puts me at serious risk of picking up a nuking DOT from one of the enemy casters, especially since they all hate WEs

For the team, in my experience so far, we seem to make the best progress if WEs can get amongst the rearmost healers and cause disruption and distraction. Apart from the desired effect of knocking out a healer, it almost always has a secondary effect - the greedy kill brigade will often turn their back on your main force to pull back for a slice of WE. Turning the enemy like this means the main force can and often do make forward progress.

I run alot with a shaman who is an excellent healer, very often as a duo since we are both around the same level, yet quite a way behind alot of our guild. Naturally enough, he will focus his healing on me, and yet I know damned well that a sneak to the back is likely to leave me dead and I tell him not to worry. If I want to just play for kills then I'll tank, often unstealthed, and have him healing hand over fist to keep me going...

That's me, anyway... whether other WEs have a similar philosophy I don't know for sure

 

[Jupitus]

Strange how you jump to the defence of Witch Elves with eh? I guess you must be a neutral party with no vested interest in this whatsoever?

I can't believe you posted this bit... so we're not supposed to post in this thread because we play the class being discussed? :lol: